Raw is Sting 3-16-15

[oh_tag]

 

well yeah, your attitude is exactly what the wwe wants right now. and hey, a lot of people have taken the route of not watching, in case you haven't noticed. i barely watch the show at all, unless i know there's something specifically that will interest me. i'm more interested in this sort of thing.

 

but accept that people are going to watch. this argument has been done a thousand times. consider it an addiction. people just aren't going to walk away. they can't. think of it like following a sports team. you stick with them no matter what, even if they suck and you get so little pleasure from it. people have the same loyalty to wwe. they have the same loyalty to certain wrestlers. that's just how it is. vince probably wants them all to go away, though he would be losing a sizable chunk of his fanbase at this poin. you would finally get the utterly dead, apathetic crowds you so crave though. i mean, that happens anyway, but magnify that so much more.

 

so people watch. still. in hope, in stupidity, maybe just for that one tiny moment like last year's wrestlemania. i WAS watching at the time and let me tell you, it felt like the years of garbage were worth it just for the conclusion. so what can you do? and if people do watch, and do go to the shows, and pay money, they have a right to express their opinion. it's not a new thing for fans to decide who their guy is. the thing that's different now is vince is so adamantly pushing back and sticking his fingers in his ears. i'm sure you've heard this argument before, but it's like ignoring austin in 97, or cena in 05, or having a WrestleMania17 main event of The Rock vs Test or something, with Austin fighting for the european title. you can say Bryan isn't at their level of popularity but that's because the whole show isn't as popular as it was. in terms of popularity within the roster, last year he was probably even more over than the rest of it than guys like Austin and Rock were to their rosters. at least you had guys like Foley and Taker then. 

 

Thank you for insulting my attitude. Didn't know I had one. Thank you for telling me what I don't notice.  Thank you for telling me what I want and how I want it.

 

We ALL have the right to express our opinion.  Not just you.  Accept that not everyone agrees with you.  That runs both ways.

 

And now you can say we but I can't.  That's quaint.

 

So Vince McMahon broke your heart and made you lose your smile is what I'm getting from all this. 

 

 

i wasn't replying to someone else's reply to someone else with "we". and certainly not when it had nothing to do with what they said originally.. 

 

no, again, you seem to have the impression i'm a lot more invested in the company than i am. i'm much more invested in this debate, actually, than anything on tv right now. 

 

we do, and i gladly said to brysinner that we can agree to disagree on reigns earlier on (before it was obvious he was trolling). but some of this stuff is very obviously not opinion. please tell me exactly what it is we disagree on? that you think people just shouldn't watch and me saying they can't walk away? is that it? or do you really believe what's being presented is totally fine and people should accept that?

[The Man Known as Dan]

Tag, my recommendation, leave the thread and move on. These guys have become worse then what they complain about.

[oh_tag]

 

 

 

 

Raziel403, on 18 Mar 2015 - 2:06 PM, said:

 

JCM, on 18 Mar 2015 - 2:02 PM, said:

The genie's out of the bottle we're not going back to 1985. WWE promotes the hell out of social media, they promote shoot interviews on their own network, and they are having Heyman cut awful quasi shoot promos to hype Lesnar/Reigns. Every bit of fan backlash they get they've brought on themselves.

 

People will only sit back and enjoy the show when they stop having their intelligence insulted, and they get a story worth investing in. Who is Roman Reigns and why should I care if he wins at Mania?

Well, if you've been actually watching and not hate watching, you'd actually see that they *are* telling that story, but ya'll are too busy bitching that its not Bryan in Reigns spot, and refuse to care.

 

The story of the babyface that not many people actually like or want to see on top trying to get the belt off the awesome ass kicking, most entertaining guy in the company doesn't seem to be a story most people want to see.

 

Goalpost moving.  You asked "Who is Reigns and why should I care if he wins?"  They are telling that story.  Your interpertition that the majority of viewers doesn't like Reigns and that everyone loves Lesnar is clouding the truth that they're telling the story of "No one in the world gives Reigns a shot in hell of beating Lesnar, and he almost has to because right now Lesnar is possibly taking the belt and running away to UFC.".  It's not rocket science.  Crowd seems to be getting plenty in to Reigns, and we have no idea how the actual match is gonna be, outside of Lesnar rules, and Reigns has proven that he can connect the dots when someone lays it out for him.  

 

Goes to the main point of all this, people hate Reigns because he's not Bryan, period.

 

 

no they don't. they hate him because he's just some random guy in that spot. did they hate him before he won the rumble? no. because he was in his place. the same way they don't hate tons of guys. if jimmy uso or xavier woods suddenly won next year's rumble, they'd be hated too. 

 

Yeah, no.  Reigns was pretty cemented in this spot for a year.  It is known.  The problem came when Bryan came back from injury and entered the Rumble, then the Rumble was laid out about as bad as you could've possibly made it.   Reigns was not random, ever.  Your argument holds no water.

 

The argument that an Uso or Woods would get shit on is concievable, but unprovable unless it was done, and cannot be decided in a vacuum.  Try again.

 

 

yes he is some random guy. random in that he's not good enough for the spot, not that he wasn't being prepped for it. that said, it was becoming obvious last summer (see the Orton match at summerslam, or the match on Raw with Rollins) that Reigns wasn't ready; in fact go back to the really awful match with Wyatt on Raw early last year, too. 

 

call it unprovable all you want, it's exactly what would happen. it's not a case of fans loving or hating certain guys no matter what, their position on the card will dictate that too. guys will gain fabases simply by winning matches and being put in strong positions. likewise, if they're not very good, other fans will shit on them if they think they're being positioned above their stations, ESPECIALLY if its at the expensive of guys they deem more deserving. it's not brain surgery. we can only base this on our own perceptions, so by all means consider it to be nothing but my opinion but even if Bryan hadn't returned, i don't believe Reigns going over in Philly would have went over that well. I think it's very possible he gets booed regardless. of course it wouldn't be as vociferous. But Bryan returning isn't irrelevant either. Yes people are upset that Reigns isn't Bryan, and that is worth considering. Why are they upset? Because a lot of people want Bryan to be the guy. But if Ambrose won the Rumble would they be as upset? Not nearly as much. It wouldn't change that so many want(ed) Bryan but it's easier to take when they actually like the other guy too. Do you think Ambrose or Ziggler would be getting the reactions Reigns is right now? 

[Go2Sleep]

This is the "If you don't like America, go live somewhere else" of wrestling arguments.

 

Oh sure, you wanna come here and take our Cesaro matches and NXT shows, but you don't wanna stand up and salute Roman Reigns... Fuckin' ingrates, go back to TNA!

[oh_tag]

 

 

 

You're basically saying "oh just play along" which is fine. But clearly the fans are at a point where they're pushing back and saying "actually, no, this is bullshit, we don't want this".

 

No--what we're saying if if you don't like what's being presented to you, don't watch.  This is an option.  Why on earth would anyone watch or keep up with a TV show they despise and causes them grief is beyond me.  We don't listen to music we don't like or eat food that our tastebuds find unappealing.  I get that some griping is part of the package, but this has become a bit much.

 

There is other wrestling--Lucha Underground, NJPW, old matches on WWE Network.  There are at least a dozen avenues for any wrestling fan to travel and find what they deem as quality viewing.  So go find your avenue and be happy.  There's nothing wrong with saying "This isn't for me--I'm out" and moving elsewhere.

 

The problem is that WWE fans--all WWE fans at some point--think they have the power.  We don't.  We never have, we never will, and you have to determine how much of this you're going to enjoy knowing that.

 

Personally, I can find entertainment in fantasy booking stuff in my head like the soap opera it is.  Whether it's good or bad?  I prefer good but bad can be entertaining. But that's me.  If that's not you, that's cool.  There are other alternatives.

 

 

why do you keep saying "we" like the anti-smark thing is some collective hive mind? I very specifically replied to Gregg who summed it up as theater and pretty much said sit back and enjoy it. everything you said is completely unrelated to my reply to him. 

 

again, plenty of people have done that, and plenty more people probably will. saying that it's become a bit much is missing the point. you could probably apply to that to any point in wwe's history. the difference is that now, for the first time, it has finally gone beyond the just bitching for bitching's sake because the company is very, very obviously ignoring the desires of pretty much the entire fanbase in favour of something that isn't going to work and was never going to work, and they're also very actively trying to piss people off in doing so. 

 

Please, prove the hyperbole of "pretty much the entire fanbase" is shitting on this story, because we seem to be watching different shows the past couple weeks.

 

 

you don't believe the reactions Bryan was getting for a year were the sign that the fanbase wanted him as Their Guy? 

[Cristobal]

This is the "If you don't like America, go live somewhere else" of wrestling arguments.

 

Oh sure, you wanna come here and take our Cesaro matches and NXT shows, but you don't wanna stand up and salute Roman Reigns... Fuckin' ingrates, go back to TNA!

The "Real Fans". BLR=Swagger, Raziel=Cesaro (the ex-foreigner/Bryan fan who has defected). Gregg=Zeb?

[oh_tag]

Tag, my recommendation, leave the thread and move on. These guys have become worse then what they complain about.

 

yeah, i'm kinda seeing that now. I feel like i'm banging my head against a table. 

[MORELOCK]

Goalpost moving.  You asked "Who is Reigns and why should I care if he wins?"  They are telling that story.  Your interpertition that the majority of viewers doesn't like Reigns and that everyone loves Lesnar is clouding the truth that they're telling the story of "No one in the world gives Reigns a shot in hell of beating Lesnar, and he almost has to because right now Lesnar is possibly taking the belt and running away to UFC.".  It's not rocket science.  Crowd seems to be getting plenty in to Reigns, and we have no idea how the actual match is gonna be, outside of Lesnar rules, and Reigns has proven that he can connect the dots when someone lays it out for him.  

 

Goes to the main point of all this, people hate Reigns because he's not Bryan, period.

 

 

People hate Reigns because his story fucking sucks. Do you honestly believe Ambrose or Ziggler would be getting the same reaction if they'd been plugged into Roman's spot at the Rumble? The story isn't a simple underdog story like you're making it out to be - people aren't skeptical about Reigns because he hasn't won any matches, they're skeptical because he's being force-fed to fans when they're generally clamoring for something more organic. They aren't telling us who Reigns is - we have no idea who he is or why we should care because the writing is awful and they aren't bothering to tell us anything other than "SUPPORT THIS GUY LIKE THE ROCK DOES FORGET DANIEL BRYAN BELIEVE THAT." It's ham-fisted. It would suck if Bryan had never come back.

[Burgundy LaRue]

If I ain't Zeb, I ain't playing.

[EVA]

Poor oh_tag is too new around here to understand what he walked into.

Prayers sent.

[JCM]

 The belt hasn't been on tv in 8 months I don't think the fans give a shit if Brock takes it to the UFC. They're setting Reigns up to be the conquering hero and the only person who can stop Brock from shitting on the WWE by taking the belt to UFC when his contract runs out. Here's the problem the WWE has presented themselves and their owner as the heels for 18 years that try to hold down guys the fans like.

 

It makes Brock seem cool for not giving a fuck about them and doing what he wants. Roman's gimmick right now is the chosen one who for some reason can't seem to let go of the Shield entrance and ring attire despite the fact that Ambrose and Rollins moved on and established their own identities right off the bat.

[Burgundy LaRue]

It's pretty clear that Reigns was assigned the Shield's music and wardrobe because it was over.  He was getting the big push, so that would keep things linear for him.  May not have completely worked, but I understand the thought process for it.

 

I have said this several times, but I'll say it again:  If you don't like Reigns, don't think he's the right choice, yadda yadda--that's fine.  No one is suggesting that you like him.  But the guy has been tapped for this role from the beginning, and it was pretty obvious.  Now if you want to criticize that Vince is only using lightning with no thunder in his approach--that's a fair point. 

 

That's the thing--us so-called Bryan haters aren't standing around saying Reigns is the moon and stars.  But we get why he was chosen and understand why Vince hasn't deviated from that stance.  And it's possible to separate the character from the story--just enough--to see that the character isn't the real issue here.

 

As for Brock leaving for UFC with the belt:  nope, not happening, Vince will pull a screwjob before that happens.  But Vince and Family getting comeuppance is a fair and fine idea.  Best way to do that is to pair Reigns with Heyman for a while.  Because while he's in the system, Heyman isn't really part of it.  He understands the game, but isn't really playing it as it's presented.  Part of me thinks they're teasing that possibility with Reigns saying he didn't have a problem with Heyman on Monday.  Heyman and Reigns have been pretty complimentary of each other.  It sounds like like Heyman may be writing Reigns' promos too--much better flow and to the point.  At the very least, Vince isn't anymore it seems.

 

I'm curious.  And as long as I'm curious, I'm fine.  Again, I like writing stories in my head.  Which says nothing good about my head--but it's a system that's got me through life pretty well so far.

[Cristobal]

That post is a prime example of why you can't be Zeb.

[JohnnyJ]

There are a few things I think most of us can agree on:

 

1. Bryan's return was underwhelming to the point where it almost feels it was intentional.

 

2. Roman's ascension has been underwhelming to the point where it feels forced.

 

You mix these factors in with the respective pro/anti Bryan, pro/anti Roman and pro/anti WWE fanbases and you get a neverending argument.

 

I'm still bummed we're not getting Bryan/Lesnar. It's not because Bryan necessarily deserves. I can see the argument both ways. It's because that's really the only WWE dream match I can think of.   

[Burgundy LaRue]

That post is a prime example of why you can't be Zeb.

 

MURICA while flying out of a wheelchair.

 

Not hard.

 

Zeb or get out.

[Jiji]

There are a few things I think most of us can agree on:

 

1. Bryan's return was underwhelming to the point where it almost feels it was intentional.

 

2. Roman's ascension has been underwhelming to the point where it feels forced.

 

You mix these factors in with the respective pro/anti Bryan, pro/anti Roman and pro/anti WWE fanbases and you get a neverending argument.

 

I'm still bummed we're not getting Bryan/Lesnar. It's not because Bryan necessarily deserves. I can see the argument both ways. It's because that's really the only WWE dream match I can think of.   

Roman Reigns is The Ascension's missing piece. He can play the Crush role in their shitty wannabe Demolition team.

[Cristobal]

Viktor, Konnor, and Romer.

[Big Fresh]

He's prolly referring to the idea that the tag match is a top 5 match in the main peaking order. It's not.

I didn't say it was. In fact, I said the opposite of that.

[ebbie]

Raw threads are really becoming like the barbershop in Coming to America.

"Everytime I start talking about Roman Reigns, a smark gotta pull Daniel Bryan out his ass!!"

[Skelemania]

"If you don't like it, don't watch!" in 2015.

 

"Love it or leave it~!" amazing...

[Stevie Ray Von Erich]

I feel like in their attempt to keep Cena, Orton, and Bryan cool so Roman can look good, they've really made this Wrestlemania feel a little watered down. They didn't bring Orton back in right. Bryan is in the ladder match. Cena is with Rusev. The only problem is that Reigns isn't gaining enough momentum fast enough to really feel like the main event will work they way they want it to.

 

The Sting moment really saved Raw for me and managed to make both of those matches seem like huge deals (despite the weird Orton reintroduction to the card), and it's not a coincidence that these matches have been built the longest (4 months-ish for Orton/Rollins and since Survivor Series for Sting/HHH). I think Mania will over-deliver in-ring, but they've really got to start doing a better job of building these cards.

 

Is it unreasonable to want months-long feuds blown off at the biggest show of the year? Like, in more than 2 intertwined programs both involving the boss and his wife?

[Niners Fan in CT]

As much as I like Hunter and what he's done with NXT..  I don't buy this idea that there is a struggle between he and Vince behind the scenes. Maybe he and Steph did go to bat for Bryan last year but I don't believe Hunter is telling Vince "listen old man.. you're fucking up! Hang it up.. step out of my way."

 

I would think Vince just does what he wants and Hunter doesn't say much.

[Niners Fan in CT]

 

Well, if you've been actually watching and not hate watching, you'd actually see that they *are* telling that story, but ya'll are too busy bitching that its not Bryan in Reigns spot, and refuse to care.

 

 

Dude.. Brock and Reigns have been in the same room once and that was a thrown together segment at Raw is snow. A good segment. They followed that up with a bunch of Heyman promos that ranged from bad to great. Brock has appeared once.  Reigns has been fighting Rollins.  Finally this week we hear from Brock himself but it's in a video package. That was good too but damn, it's not really a main event level build at all.  Not even close.  Orton and Rollins and Rusev and Cena have been pushed as the biggest and most important matches on the card.

[Stevie Ray Von Erich]

If they were telling the story about Brock leaving with the belt (a story they've already told, and much better, with Punk), shouldn't someone, literally anyone besides Paul and Brock mention it?

 

Raziel403, I buy they are telling that story, but they are doing it so damn poorly. I think you've GOT to take that into consideration.

[piranesi]

Brock not being there is hurting a lot I think, at least in terms of giving anyone a reason to cheer for Roman.  When was the last time Brock did anything heelish?  I mean other than occasionally defeating babyfaces, which I guess is the most basic baseline thing to do to maintain a heel status.

 

But even that he's done, what twice?  I don't even count last time since he pinned another heel.

 

He's supposed to be this threat to...something...some freedom or safety or way of life.  A monster is a monster because it holds society hostage to fear and a hero is a hero for liberating society from it.  But Brock hasn't done anything to make anyone afraid.  At this point, at best, he's just a test that guys can try to pass, like a gorgon or something.  But he only hurts you if you try to get near him.  Like, he's only a heel if you're dumb enough to go to South Dakota.  Shit Heyman isn't even doing anything bad unless just being a smug prick is enough.  But how is Roman less of a smug prick?  They're literally saying the same shit to each other.

 

Reigns then, at best, is just a guy who wants to prove something by attacking the scariest animal in the zoo.  An animal that doesn't do anything but look ugly.  I mean, good for him, I guess it's admirable to believe in yourself or something.  Or you could just mind your own business or find some heel to bring to justice. 

 

He doesn't have a story so he doesn't symbolize anything, like Austin symbolized total sociopathic freedom of self and Rock symbolized the narcissist we all have hiding in us, and Bryan symbolized our ugliest sense of self pity (and I don't mean that he's a bad character...but that is what he gets at).  Reigns doesn't symbolize anything.  He is a simple thing.  Tall, pretty, strong.  None of those things are metaphors, though.  He symbolizes a tall, pretty, strong man by being a tall, pretty, strong man.