Hooker Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 I just broke the tie. In favor of BARRRACCCCCCCKK LESSSSSNAR. Oh right an explanation. Well, fuck you. I'm not paid to post in this thread. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cristobal Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 Every time people post stuff like that, more people vote for Honma. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSJ Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 I think JonnyLaw pretty well nailed this, the last year Honma was a fantastic (and busy) wrestler, Brock was a very cool special attraction and plot device. When he did actually wrestle he was great, but as Pete said, Brock's great matches were easy to enumerate (on the fingers of one hand to be accurate), and I'd need to spend a serious amount of time to list all of Honma's. Assume the caliber of matches is the same, (eef you weeel), and I don't think that's really the case (I think Honma's peak trumps Brock's), you then have to weigh volume against volume and it's not even remotely close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cristobal Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 Honestly, I feel like way too much of peoples' reasoning seems to be directly influenced by how they were booked. Lesnar's very good and all, but if he weren't booked stronger than anyone since mid-80s Hulk Hogan, would he be considered anything that special? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hooker Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 Every time people post stuff like that, more people vote for Honma. I don't actually care who wins. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niners Fan in CT Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 would he be considered anything that special? People can be booked like Brock Lesnar but they can't BE Brock Lesnar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DylanWaco Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 I wanted to address the point I made earlier about Honma and "transcendence." With Brock there is no question he's presented as a MUCH bigger star than Honma. When he's around it does feel like an event and not all of that is the booking. Brock is a legit great worker, with a unique physical charisma that few people in wrestling history have had. But, a lot of it is the booking. 5No one else got to end the streak. No one else has Heyman as a mouthpiece. No one else gets to squash John Cena. No one else gets to treat the F5 like an armdrag. No one else gets to work three or four matches in an entire year, while also holding the promotions top title for months. So Brock is transcendent in some sense. Part of it is him and part of it is booking. But my question is what is the result of all of this? The easy answer is that Brock matches and appearances feel like big events, which combined with his natural physical charisma makes him the biggest - or at least most exciting for a lack of a better term - star in wrestling. I would not necessarily deny that, but for me at least what Brock's "transcendence" (and I"m not sure that's event he right word but it was invoked earlier so I'm going with it) also means is that the rest of the card looks like shit by comparison. This is not really Brock's fault. He can't help the way others are worked. And I can't fault a guy that got himself a very favorable contract where an "appearance" can consist of occupying space while your mouthpiece talks. But the reality is that from my perspective absolutely no one other than maybe Seth Rollins (and I think that's a big maybe) has benefited from the "transcendence" of Brock Lesnar. He is not a huge draw. He rarely does physical altercations when he's around. He has almost no interaction with anyone on the roster directly. His stardom is basically self contained and does not benefit anyone other than himself and Heyman. That's good for him, and does help his matches in a way, but I think it hurts the product as a whole. Honma by contrast is basically a jobber as mentioned before. He never wins. Ever. There is really no reason for anyone to ever be invested in him given how he has been booked. Accept for one thing - he is a brilliant worker. In fact I would say he is a "transcendent" worker in the sense that he transcends his role as a jobber to the point where he feels like a legit star, works like a legit star, gets over in defeat, and helps others feel like bigger deals in victory even though there is literally no reason to believe they are in danger against Honma from a purely logical perspective. Honma "transcends" jobberdom in a way that I'm not sure any wrestler in the history of wrestling ever has. Again this is a guy who did not win a single match in the G1 - and yet he was very likely the best guy in the tournament. When Makabe got hurt they threw Honma into the Never Title match Ishii and no one questioned it - in fact they went nuts for it - because even though there is no reason to believe in Honma beyond his work, people believe because of his work. When Ibushi needed a big win on a major show after losing to Nak at the Dome the could have fed him a ton of different guys with stronger kayfabe resumes - Shibata, Goto, Naito, Anderson, Kojima, Nagata, et - but they gave him Honma because even as a fucking jobber a win over Honma means something and the match is going to be great. Brock has an aura about him. It's very possible he's the most over wrestler in the WWE. But he's presented in such a way where that shouldn't be a surprise at all, especially when you factor in how good he is. Honma is very possibly the most over guy in NJPW. And he's a guy who's probably won fewer singles match in the last several years than Zack Ryder. Brock may have "transcended" the standard notion of what a very good wrestler is, but what Honma has done is almost unfathomable. There is transcendence and then there is transcendence. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jiji Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 And he does this occasionally! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 I love the headbutt, in general, not necessarily THAT one, but I love that he almost always seems to miss it the first time. I may have said this in the other note, but it makes for a great easy transition that makes sense every time since it's totally in character, and when he does hit it with that huge smile on his face, it creates a massive pop and means something because he missed it before so there's real payoff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stay Gold Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 I think Honma's my favorite wrestler of the year. And he's only won a single match in New Japan all year, if I'm thinking correctly. The guy always loses, yet every time he wrestles I catch myself thinking "Ok, this is it. He's finally gonna win!" I don't know of any other jobber that makes me believe as much as he does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoeCristyV.1.6 Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 I wanted to vote for Honma. But then....he never wins! That's his gimmick! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jrag Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 Honestly, I feel like way too much of peoples' reasoning seems to be directly influenced by how they were booked. Lesnar's very good and all, but if he weren't booked stronger than anyone since mid-80s Hulk Hogan, would he be considered anything that special? You're talking about a company who can't book monster heels for more than a month at a time. Seriously, how long into a Big Show or Mark Henry push before they start running away from John Cena? This company doesn't know shit about strong heels. That's all thrown out the window with Brock because he is Brock. A force of nature, special attraction whatever you want to call it. If it was someone else they would have already fucked it up. That's a point for Brock in my mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jrag Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 It's not all booking by the way. I'd rather watch a Brock Lesnar match than any other match on the planet and that counts for something. I'm more interested in Lesnar/Reigns than everything else at Mania combined. Not because of Heyman and certainly not because of Reigns. It's the Brock Lesnar show whenever he is in the building and no matter what happens at Mania people will look back on this voting period as the year of Brock Lesnar. Just like people will look back at last years voting period as the year of Daniel Bryan. You all fucked that one up, and I'm sure you will fuck this one up as well, but why not wait a few more rounds? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 I'm not convinced you know anything about Honma or why anyone is voting for him. We're into round 2. You have to do more work than that. People understand Brock's year. Every single person on this board saw the matches. You want to make an argument, do your homework. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jrag Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 Ha. Go fuck yourself, Matt. Round 2? You couldn't bother to watch Aries matches from the damn semi finals. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 And I have learned from my mistakes, brother Jrag. I've watched more NJPW in the last few weeks than I have in the last 10 years, I think. I have only good things to say about AJ Styles' backbreaker. I even made a gif just now. I would not know about such things if I was not doing due diligence. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DylanWaco Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 Honestly, I feel like way too much of peoples' reasoning seems to be directly influenced by how they were booked. Lesnar's very good and all, but if he weren't booked stronger than anyone since mid-80s Hulk Hogan, would he be considered anything that special? You're talking about a company who can't book monster heels for more than a month at a time. Seriously, how long into a Big Show or Mark Henry push before they start running away from John Cena? This company doesn't know shit about strong heels. That's all thrown out the window with Brock because he is Brock. A force of nature, special attraction whatever you want to call it. If it was someone else they would have already fucked it up. That's a point for Brock in my mind. The best booked guy in the company last year - even better than Brock really - was Rusev. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jrag Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 Rusev is up there, but it's a little easier to book a guy beating the piss out of mid carders. There have been a few hiccups along the way, like that weird segment with The Rock. It's sort of amazing that they haven't screwed him up in the Cena feud yet, but there is still time. Rusev is having a hell of a year though and I hope he goes far in this tournament. I'd still say Brock was booked better, but I'm one of those guys who loved how they ended the streak. I'm also still shocked by the SS match with Cena. I never thought we would see that sort of mauling on a WWE ace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 I wanted to vote for Honma. But then....he never wins! That's his gimmick! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NikoBaltimore Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 Having a bit of voter's remorse with my Brock pick. First time watching Honma was WK9 and it was pretty cool seeing him win. Then I come on the board and find he never won until that point and see it was a huge deal. There is something about the guy that you just want to root for, win/loss record be damned. It's always great to root for the underdog and he sure is the ultimate underdog. Fun matches too. In voting for Brock it was due to familiarity but also because of that special attraction feel. Looking back I'm not sure if that should have been enough to vote for him. Really should have waited until tomorrow to vote. But from here on I'm just going to root for Homna. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOTNW Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 Embrace Honma. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRGoldman Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 I wanted to address the point I made earlier about Honma and "transcendence." With Brock there is no question he's presented as a MUCH bigger star than Honma. When he's around it does feel like an event and not all of that is the booking. Brock is a legit great worker, with a unique physical charisma that few people in wrestling history have had. But, a lot of it is the booking. 5No one else got to end the streak. No one else has Heyman as a mouthpiece. No one else gets to squash John Cena. No one else gets to treat the F5 like an armdrag. No one else gets to work three or four matches in an entire year, while also holding the promotions top title for months. So Brock is transcendent in some sense. Part of it is him and part of it is booking. But my question is what is the result of all of this? The easy answer is that Brock matches and appearances feel like big events, which combined with his natural physical charisma makes him the biggest - or at least most exciting for a lack of a better term - star in wrestling. I would not necessarily deny that, but for me at least what Brock's "transcendence" (and I"m not sure that's event he right word but it was invoked earlier so I'm going with it) also means is that the rest of the card looks like shit by comparison. This is not really Brock's fault. He can't help the way others are worked. And I can't fault a guy that got himself a very favorable contract where an "appearance" can consist of occupying space while your mouthpiece talks. But the reality is that from my perspective absolutely no one other than maybe Seth Rollins (and I think that's a big maybe) has benefited from the "transcendence" of Brock Lesnar. He is not a huge draw. He rarely does physical altercations when he's around. He has almost no interaction with anyone on the roster directly. His stardom is basically self contained and does not benefit anyone other than himself and Heyman. That's good for him, and does help his matches in a way, but I think it hurts stuffing instead of potatoes as a whole. Honma by contrast is basically a jobber as mentioned before. He never wins. Ever. There is really no reason for anyone to ever be invested in him given how he has been booked. Accept for one thing - he is a brilliant worker. In fact I would say he is a "transcendent" worker in the sense that he transcends his role as a jobber to the point where he feels like a legit star, works like a legit star, gets over in defeat, and helps others feel like bigger deals in victory even though there is literally no reason to believe they are in danger against Honma from a purely logical perspective. Honma "transcends" jobberdom in a way that I'm not sure any wrestler in the history of wrestling ever has. Again this is a guy who did not win a single match in the G1 - and yet he was very likely the best guy in the tournament. When Makabe got hurt they threw Honma into the Never Title match Ishii and no one questioned it - in fact they went nuts for it - because even though there is no reason to believe in Honma beyond his work, people believe because of his work. When Ibushi needed a big win on a major show after losing to Nak at the Dome the could have fed him a ton of different guys with stronger kayfabe resumes - Shibata, Goto, Naito, Anderson, Kojima, Nagata, et - but they gave him Honma because even as a fucking jobber a win over Honma means something and the match is going to be great. Brock has an aura about him. It's very possible he's the most over wrestler in the WWE. But he's presented in such a way where that shouldn't be a surprise at all, especially when you factor in how good he is. Honma is very possibly the most over guy in NJPW. And he's a guy who's probably won fewer singles match in the last several years than Zack Ryder. Brock may have "transcended" the standard notion of what a very good wrestler is, but what Honma has done is almost unfathomable. There is transcendence and then there is transcendence. Dylan, thanks for the thorough response. I wanted to address a few points, although I'm sure this will end with us either arguing over semantics or agreeing to disagree. One, I think it's a little unfair to claim that the booking surrounding Brock is responsible for his aura/transcendence. I think a lesser performer would have languished had they been presented in the same fashion as Brock was this year. Other performers have been paired with Heyman and it has been an anchor. There is a sense that they can't live up to the pairing. This includes otherwise talented individuals like CM Punk. Brock doesn't have this issue, obviously. Heyman is very clearly the silver surfer to his galactus. Secondly, I think a lesser performer would not be able to only appear 3 or 4 times, and hold the title hostage in the manner that Brock has. The fans are forgiving of this (frankly indefensible and terrible) booking because it's an accepted conceit that when Brock does show up, it will be worth the wait. Or at least more worth the wait than anyone else. There are a lot of guys in the WWE I really love, but if they only showed up 3 or 4 times a year, it would be a nice surprise and a nice diversion and not much else. Brock is universe altering, if you'll excuse the pun. I think your point about the way Brock is presented hurting other wrestlers and the overall product is an interesting one, and one I am prepared to grant, although i don't see what impact it has on which of these two people has had the better year. I think we should try and view these people in a vacuum as much as possible, and the fact that Jack Swagger hasn't gotten more over while Brock was on top isn't an argument against him as a performer this year. I think it's an indictment of a larger problem of the WWE's pro-duct, but I don't think we can lay that at Brock's feet. I love and agree with everything you have written about Honma, and I think here is where we differ. Honma, in his role as jobber/star, transcends typical wrestling tropes, but still functions in the confines of professional wrestling. Brock, in his role as Michael Myers/WWE Champion, functions outside the genre. Wrestling fans are the worst and I hesitate to bring them in to this, but there is a not insignificant percentage of "smart" fans that truly believe that Brock Lesnar may shoot on Roman Reigns at the biggest show of the year and refuse to job and go to UFC as the WWE champion. This is ludicrous and insane, but I think it speaks to the fact that Brock is at a point where he is no longer thought of as solely a professional wrestler. He must be presented as this great other. He accomplished a good portion of that during this voting period, and I think it was the most noteworthy accomplishment of any one in the tournament. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SolidGoldBomb Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 You had me at Galactus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niners Fan in CT Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 If they booked Big Show the same exact way they've presented Brock (and Big Show has had periods where he was dominant) it wouldn't be the same. Brock is Brock. Nobody else brings the DANGER to the ring like Brock. I hate to use the word but there is a certain realism that surrounds Brock. It's not exactly grounded in kayfabe but I don't think it tears down that barrier either. Brock is a guy that has this aura about him and everyone buys into him destroying all comers. They want to see what he'll do next. You couldn't do that with Big Show. You couldn't do it with anyone else but Brock. Maybe a Mark Henry could come close but there really has never been anyone in professional wreslting quite like Brock Lesnar. Every time he showed up within the past year he was first greeted with "OH SHITS" and his matches left fans in a "I can't believe this is happening" daze. In a good way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DylanWaco Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 I understand what you are saying JR and I tried to qualify some of what I wrote about on Brock by noting that i DO think he's a unique and dynamic performer. That said I'm not entirely sure I buy the argument that ONLY Brock could work this way. I suppose it's true in the sense that only Brock has been UFC heavyweight champion, but I see no other reason why it is true. People forget that in 2011 Mark Henry was really over as a monster, to the point where he his run on top helped SD business in noticeable ways. Did he have the aura of Brock? No, but he had an aura, and he didn't have the benefit of working less than five matches a year like Brock does. I think it's entirely feasible that if he was protected as much as Brock he would have a similar sort of feel to Brock. Its impossible to proof of course, and I'm biased because I love Henry, but I don't think it's a crazy notion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts