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MGFanJay

Raw 2-23-15

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Oh for the love of Christ. Yes, forget the WWE's terribly illogical writing - the live crowds are the real issue here.

Yeah, but what was illogical at all about the Reigns/Heyman segment that prompted this segment? A heel manager builds up his client in a way to intimidate his opponent/make himself seem more important/etc. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that at all if you watch wrestling like a normal person.

But if you get into the whole meta game -- that's where the problem comes into play. And, yes, that's the live crowd's fault.

What was illogical about the segment is that the only storyline involving Reigns the past few months is that he does not deserve his spot. WWE has attempted to spend the last month convincing you he does deserve it.

The point of Heymans segment was to build Reigns up in a way he can't himself. Name dropping the all time greats was the wrong way to do it. It emphasizes the exact problem people have with him.

And yes it was coming from a heel but that part of the promo was lacking heel elements. The purpose of that part of the promo was to sell you on Reigns.

 

 

 

Should Heyman say: "You don't deserve this match. You're not Austin or Rock or Daniel Bryan. You have no chance against Brock?" Because if Brock beats Reigns, it means nothing. But if Reigns beats Brock, it's a fluke. That is truly, truly dumb.

 

 

Perhaps he should just not invoke the names of three of wrestling's all-time biggest stars? Reigns has accomplished plenty on his own that Heyman can gloss up.

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Raziel, I thought you were cutting a Paul Heyman-esque promo earlier in this thread. Is he trolling Roman/Gregg or is he praising him?! OBVIOUSLY HE'S TROLLING! Wait, no, he's serious!? Gosh darn it! With all of this meta stuff, I don't know what means what anymore! 

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I feel like we're about to pan around the room and then the tense music will begin and it'll end with RIPPA reappearing like this:

 

tumblr_n10avtHlJ91s4r0lno5_500.gif

 

And then in big letters:

 

LMM-LOGOWEB.png

I think everyone's more than ready to take a year of frustration out on each other.

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NXT shows that if you book people properly and push them at a pace the audience prefers, you'll get the reactions you want for the most part. 

 

Gregg should know this since he watches NXT and saw a large part of those fans, who are more aware of the game than many other types of fan, go silent during the Sami Zayn/Kevin Owens knockout angle. That was traditional booking and it worked because it was well-executed. 

 

If Ryan Ward can execute traditional booking successfully, but Vince McMahon can't, blame the fans! Wonderful logic there, Gregg. I think Gregg is just screwing with everyone at this point and knows that the booking is as bad as we do. It can be fun to play devil's advocate. 

 

Someone tell Raziel that he's got a long way to go before he reaches even a level of expertise with his troll-fu FSW reached with his Punk-bashing. Hell, I was reading through the MM 2014 threads when FSW moved on to Shield-bashing, and his stuff about Reigns being exposed in singles actually ended up being prescient. Long way to go to troll that expertly, Raziel. 

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See, the thing is, I'm not bashing Bryan.  I love Bryan.  I'm not even trying to troll.

 

I'm just sick of his cult's constant whining.

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Maybe I'm over-analyzing this, but I'm starting to think that the long game may very well be a Reigns heel turn and alliance with Heyman for the better part of a year. The thing is, Reigns is everything that you want in a cool heel, one that will be turned face organically by the crowd. The main thing (as I think it was Piranesi suggested) is to keep him the fuck away from Daniel Bryan. Split the damn title again if that's what it takes, but in no universe should you create a situation where fans have to choose between the two of them. That does no one any good. Going this route gets the WWE their guy but in a way that the crowd feels that they chose him, not that he was shoved down their throats.

 

I'm still not convinced that turning DB as a whiney heel isn't the way to go. He can definitely work heel as witnessed at the PPV, and that Tully Blanchard cockiness is right there under the surface. There's a lot that can be done with a guy that's arguably the best in the world and has a load of resentments about not having the belt he never actually lost. Would it be easier writing to turn Reigns, yeah, probably so, so that's what we're likely to get and both of these scenarios involve long-range planning and consistent story-telling, so we likely will get neither, but I at least wanted to toss the ideas out there.

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See, the thing is, I'm not bashing Bryan.  I love Bryan.  I'm not even trying to troll.

 

I'm just sick of his cult's constant whining.

 

Oh my gosh, fans, errr I mean those CULTISTS, of a guy really want that guy to win! How whiny!

 

I can't believe that a group of people, many of whom have been emotionally invested in Bryan and his career for years, are unhappy because the booker thought it was a great idea to bring Bryan (the clear #1 babyface if you listened to the fans over the past eighteen months) back off injury and cool him off in favor of a dude they were saying was lost in singles matches well before Bryan came back in the first place!

 

How AWFUL!

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Posts like that kinda prove his point, though.

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There's also a distain I'm getting for the Cult of Brian needs to be champ right now because of Bryan's neck.  Less than 4 months ago, we were questioning if he was coming back at all and wasn't done with wrestling.  Now, he's back after a miracle, and we want him carrying the company.

 

Well, let's look at how well that's worked in the past.

 

Edge came back, was on and off and finally had to retire permeniently right after a Mania, vacating a belt.

 

Angle was so bad they got legit scared he was going to kill himself in the ring so they released him. We're still waiting for him to die in the ring because he's a lunatic and in a company that give zero fucks about its workers health.

 

And that one guy who's been pretty much all but expunged from history completely.

 

Bryan just came back from an injury we thought was retiring him.  How about letting him get back in and prove his neck isn't going to snap when breathed on wrong before we put carrying the company on him.

 

And maybe, not rush to put him in the ring with a legit monster that's one misthrow on a suplex away from crippling him for life.

 

Its not that you "fans" care to see him on top.  Its that you want him on top and give zero shits about if it cripples him or not.

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Posts like that kinda prove his point, though.

 

 

No, it really doesn't. What happens on message boards is that people actually become really big fans of a guy organically, and then there is always a crew of people who have to go the opposite direction whether they like the guy or not. The wonder of wrestling, especially for those of us who aren't kids anymore, is when wrestling kinda brings back that magic again where you actually care about what happens to your favorite wrestlers.

 
People being invested in Bryan is the mark of really awesome pro wrestling, not cult-like behavior to be derided. Oddly for someone who chided others for being cynical about RAW, that's the most cynical thing said in this thread so far.
 
EDIT: Ah, the "won't someone please think of THE CHIIIIILDREN BRYAN'S NECK!"argument. Yeah, they shouldn't have put the belt on Steve Austin right after he came back from his neck injury either.
 
Trying to put the responsibility for Bryan's health not on his doctors, not on Vince McMahon and the company for letting him wrestle, not on Bryan himself, but on the fans is weird, too. 
 
Alright, I don't want to get banned here so I'll step out now, but you're improving, Raziel. I give you three FSW's out of five.  :)
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Whatever works for you, cool.

 

Raw is much more enjoyable to me now that I fast-forward through a good chunk of it.  Authority promo segments are an automatic skip.

I realize that nothing I say would make a difference here, so I'll just leave it at that.  Watch wrestling in whatever manner works for you.

 

The fact that he came back and entered the Rumble gave the impression that he was good to go.  I no longer have those expectations.

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There's also a distain I'm getting for the Cult of Brian needs to be champ right now because of Bryan's neck.  Less than 4 months ago, we were questioning if he was coming back at all and wasn't done with wrestling.  Now, he's back after a miracle, and we want him carrying the company.

 

Well, let's look at how well that's worked in the past.

 

Edge came back, was on and off and finally had to retire permeniently right after a Mania, vacating a belt.

 

Angle was so bad they got legit scared he was going to kill himself in the ring so they released him. We're still waiting for him to die in the ring because he's a lunatic and in a company that give zero fucks about its workers health.

 

And that one guy who's been pretty much all but expunged from history completely.

 

Bryan just came back from an injury we thought was retiring him.  How about letting him get back in and prove his neck isn't going to snap when breathed on wrong before we put carrying the company on him.

 

And maybe, not rush to put him in the ring with a legit monster that's one misthrow on a suplex away from crippling him for life.

 

Its not that you "fans" care to see him on top.  Its that you want him on top and give zero shits about if it cripples him or not.

Is it not completely disingenuous and hypocritical of you to say this when you were the most vocal of detractors of WWE booking throughout the Bryan/Orton saga and most vocal supporter of Bryan winning the title and winning the title, like, right now (as in Night of Champions '13 and all the crappy B-level PPVs nobody watches where he got screwed over by the Authority)? 

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As I said in another thread:  If he's truly that fragile?  Then he SHOULD retire.

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There's also a distain I'm getting for the Cult of Brian needs to be champ right now because of Bryan's neck.  Less than 4 months ago, we were questioning if he was coming back at all and wasn't done with wrestling.  Now, he's back after a miracle, and we want him carrying the company.

 

Well, let's look at how well that's worked in the past.

 

Edge came back, was on and off and finally had to retire permeniently right after a Mania, vacating a belt.

 

Angle was so bad they got legit scared he was going to kill himself in the ring so they released him. We're still waiting for him to die in the ring because he's a lunatic and in a company that give zero fucks about its workers health.

 

And that one guy who's been pretty much all but expunged from history completely.

 

Bryan just came back from an injury we thought was retiring him.  How about letting him get back in and prove his neck isn't going to snap when breathed on wrong before we put carrying the company on him.

 

And maybe, not rush to put him in the ring with a legit monster that's one misthrow on a suplex away from crippling him for life.

 

Its not that you "fans" care to see him on top.  Its that you want him on top and give zero shits about if it cripples him or not.

Is it not completely disingenuous and hypocritical of you to say this when you were the most vocal of detractors of WWE booking throughout the Bryan/Orton saga and most vocal supporter of Bryan winning the title and winning the title, like, right now (as in Night of Champions '13 and all the crappy B-level PPVs nobody watches where he got screwed over by the Authority)? 

 

His neck wasn't Paper Mache last year.

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There's also a distain I'm getting for the Cult of Brian needs to be champ right now because of Bryan's neck.  Less than 4 months ago, we were questioning if he was coming back at all and wasn't done with wrestling.  Now, he's back after a miracle, and we want him carrying the company.

 

Well, let's look at how well that's worked in the past.

 

Edge came back, was on and off and finally had to retire permeniently right after a Mania, vacating a belt.

 

Angle was so bad they got legit scared he was going to kill himself in the ring so they released him. We're still waiting for him to die in the ring because he's a lunatic and in a company that give zero fucks about its workers health.

 

And that one guy who's been pretty much all but expunged from history completely.

 

Bryan just came back from an injury we thought was retiring him.  How about letting him get back in and prove his neck isn't going to snap when breathed on wrong before we put carrying the company on him.

 

And maybe, not rush to put him in the ring with a legit monster that's one misthrow on a suplex away from crippling him for life.

 

Its not that you "fans" care to see him on top.  Its that you want him on top and give zero shits about if it cripples him or not.

 

Except DB's surgery wasn't a fusion like the others. And his neck recovered fine, what was problematic was his arm, which was resolved in November. That, and the others made no modifications to their moveset followed by their injuries, while Bryan has become one of the first to actually listen to Harley Race and abandoned the diving headbutt.

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NXT shows that if you book people properly and push them at a pace the audience prefers, you'll get the reactions you want for the most part. 

 

Gregg should know this since he watches NXT and saw a large part of those fans, who are more aware of the game than many other types of fan, go silent during the Sami Zayn/Kevin Owens knockout angle. That was traditional booking and it worked because it was well-executed. 

 

If Ryan Ward can execute traditional booking successfully, but Vince McMahon can't, blame the fans! Wonderful logic there, Gregg. I think Gregg is just screwing with everyone at this point and knows that the booking is as bad as we do. It can be fun to play devil's advocate.

 

Do you really need to have it spelled out for you why NXT is easier to book and structure and get over than Raw?

1) It's taped a whole bunch of episodes at a time. They put together about five weeks of shows in one setting. That's way easier to control than a three hour live extravaganza where you have things like commercials and all sorts of other things to consider.

2) It's in front of a Chikara South audience. It's the best, most supportive audience ever. It's also 300 people or so. Raw is in front of 15,000 people. There are a lot of kids and parents. And there are a lot of people there now to snark on the product like it's their (woefully unfunny) version of MST3K or a Vulture live-blog of Celebrity Apprentice or whatever.

I am not here to play devil's advocate. I explain everything I think. I do so coherently and logically. I would have a lot more faith in what the people who OMGZ THIS SUCKZ every week believe what they say if they weren't saying more-or-less the same stuff this time last year. Last year's stretch was WAY better. Last year's stretch run was probably the best stretch run the WWE has had maybe ever. But it was still filled with all this garbage about Bryan being buried or cooled off (go read the Elimination Chamber thread, when a whole bunch of you were pissed he lost at the set-up PPV, which is beyond idiotic).

This whole thread started because people are hating on a three-minute segment with Paul Heyman and Roman Reigns. Or people are upset because the "number one babyface didn't go over because they are pushing someone who isn't ready!!! And who did that promo help???"

 

Ye gods.

 

How about you stop thinking about stuff like "number one babyface!" and more like "Bryan lost to Roman Reigns. I'm upset he lost because he's my favorite wrestler! But now I respect Reigns because the good guy Bryan tipped his cap to the guy who was the better man last night! Does he have a chance to beat Brock?"

Life is a lot easier when you get all that nonsense out of the way.

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I generally enjoyed Raw again this week.

 

I initially wanted to see the Ascension continue to get wins even though I'm not really fans of theirs, but a surprise win by the PTP was pretty cool, too.  The tag division isn't really all that bad.

 

R-Truth being in the IC hunt really came out of nowhere.  Not sure how I feel about that, but I love that it makes the title seem that much more important.  People want to be the champion instead of having a grievance with the guy who happens to have the title.  I like that.

 

Rusev and Lana are great.  This is a different twist on the Cena beating the odds storyline that has played out so many times over the years.  Rusev isn't stringing Cena along, he's not stacking the deck against him, he beat him and he's done with him.  Sure, the end result may very well end up being the same, but it is a cool twist.  

 

I like Roman Reigns.  He may not have been my first choice for the Main Event spot at WrestleMania, but I like that the WWE had a plan and are telling that story.  There's no doubt in my mind that if Bryan had remained healthy last year we'd be exactly where we are right now anyway.  This seems to me to be the first time in a long time that the WWE has actually built somebody new and wants to stick with him.  This isn't "Cena is hurt, let's put somebody else in that spot" or "so and so is getting a good reaction, let's give him a try".  This is somebody that they've had a plan for and stuck with for over a year.  It makes me curious to see how long they will stick with him assuming he wins the title.

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Again, I'm dumbfounded. When did Raziel become Daniel Bryan's doctor? Better yet, when did anyone become Daniel Bryan's doctor, diagnosing him with a career threatening neck problem? The thought all along was that he was going to return, it just took a long goddamn time for that to happen. No one even knew for sure what was happening with him, so I find it to be funny that all of a sudden, a bunch of you have turned into experts on DB's injuries. He explained it so himself for why he wound up being out longer than was expected.

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2) It's in front of a Chikara South audience. It's the best, most supportive audience ever. It's also 300 people or so. Raw is in front of 15,000 people. There are a lot of kids and parents. And there are a lot of people there now to snark on stuffing instead of potatoes like it's their (woefully unfunny) version of MST3K or a Vulture live-blog of Celebrity Apprentice or whatever.

 

 

I don't see you sending Triple H a fruit basket.

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I swear, I'm about to team up with Ebbie.  This place wouldn't have a lamb's chance in a wolf's lair if that happened.

 

#DVDVRDivasTakeWhatTheyWant

 

Maybe I'm over-analyzing this, but I'm starting to think that the long game may very well be a Reigns heel turn and alliance with Heyman for the better part of a year. The thing is, Reigns is everything that you want in a cool heel, one that will be turned face organically by the crowd

 

Let's over-analyze together, because I pick up the same vibes. Heyman may have hinted at this in his promo:

 

You are the right guy, in the right place, at the WRONG time! ... You CAN'T SLAY my BEAST!

 

Now the last part of that passage hypes up Brock. But the first part suggests that Heyman sees something in Roman that he respects.  Possibly, he thinks he can mold that into something more tangible.  Paulie has nothing if he doesn't have the vision to see untapped potential.

 

The family pedigree that Heyman has touched on, the overall package that Roman presents--right now it's an idea, floating along without direction.  But with Heyman as his advocate, the idea behind Roman Reigns becomes very focused and very real. Heyman can facilitate that.

 

But that's not happening as long as Brock is around.

 

So, what gives?

 

If Lesnar is gone after WM--still a big if--I think they let Heyman run with Reigns for 12-18 months.  Reigns becomes an arrogant asshole of a champion/contender who eventually becomes face because fans grow to like him and Heyman can easily become turncoat again if Lesnar returns.

 

Who knows.  It all hinges on Brock.  But if he's really gone post WM, there's no reason not to go with this plan.

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I swear, I'm about to team up with Ebbie.  This place wouldn't have a lamb's chance in a wolf's lair if that happened.

 

#DVDVRDivasTakeWhatTheyWant

 

 

We'll give you 30 seconds. Go!

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FWIW, on the snowed in Raw, I thought the interview was setting up Reigns become Heyman's new client, with Heyman turning on Lesnar, like he did when Big Show became his client.

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Tiresome lecture, Gregg. Vince McMahon, with all his years in the business, SHOULD be able to connect with traditional booking on a higher degree of difficulty than Ryan Ward. Your argument about NXT being easier for Ward to successfully book is a red herring. Vince McMahon found a way to book two hour shows that kept multiple acts hot in the past. That third hour makes things tougher, but Vince McMahon of all people should be able to meet that challenge. If he can't, it's time for a new approach. 

 

How about you stop thinking about stuff like "number one babyface!" and more like "Bryan lost to Roman Reigns. I'm upset he lost because he's my favorite wrestler! But now I respect Reigns because the good guy Bryan tipped his cap to the guy who was the better man last night! Does he have a chance to beat Brock?"

Life is a lot easier when you get all that nonsense out of the way.

 

 

Well, there's your issue: From a pure fan standpoint, I don't like or care about Roman Reigns even if he beat Bryan. So I guess what I'm thinking is, "Who cares about Roman Reigns? I don't think I'll bother watching WrestleMania," which is pretty much what most fans do when the company makes poor creative decisions over and over again. Apathy sets in.

 

Oh man, Gregg, I love you, but you aren't some sage that has crucial life wisdom for us. You're just a dude that rationalizes poor booking decisions on a bad wrestling show. I appreciate that you enjoy this show, but it's pretty clear that you are in a minority, and I think reducing why to "People just like to hate things" isn't very logical at all. 

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How about you stop thinking about stuff like "number one babyface!" and more like "Bryan lost to Roman Reigns. I'm upset he lost because he's my favorite wrestler! But now I respect Reigns because the good guy Bryan tipped his cap to the guy who was the better man last night! Does he have a chance to beat Brock?"

Life is a lot easier when you get all that nonsense out of the way.

 

 

Watch how you want to watch, Gregg.  I'm not here for this IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH nonsense.

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