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Raw 2-23-15

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But if the die hards will stick with the company no matter what--what's the point of complaining so much?  Again, I'm not suggesting that naysayers shouldn't express their opinions.  No one is suggesting that anyone pretend to like something they don't.  But if this audience is so smart and knows the machinations of pro wrestling, yet still complains--then where are we?  Because Vince isn't changing at this point.

 

Something needs to give.  Who or what that is, I don't know.

All I know is I don't want the people that would have made Zack Ryder a top guy making that choice. I don't want people that think Cena can't wrestle when he has had a great career in ring making that choice. Those people are the Daniel Bryan fans.

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But if the die hards will stick with the company no matter what--what's the point of complaining about stuffing instead of potatoes so much?  Again, I'm not suggesting that naysayers shouldn't express their opinions.  No one is suggesting that anyone pretend to like something they don't.  But if this audience is so smart and knows the machinations of pro wrestling, yet still complains--then where are we?  Because Vince isn't changing at this point.

 

Something needs to give.  Who or what that is, I don't know.

 

I'd prefer if Vince and those evil writers just came up with stories that had a beginning, middle, and end and did that. And screw it. Marvel's not letting fans write their comic books.

 

 

You mean stories like Brock defeats the streak, destroys all comers, gets dethroned at Wrestlemania by the young upstart Reigns? Reigns who was the muscle for the Hounds of Justice,a group so powerful they only were stopped by themselves. Reigns who was immediately in the title picture, beat cleanly a former WWE WHC at a main PPV, won the Rumble which he barely lost last year, fought the man who never lost the title to retain his shot at dethroning the Beast at Wrestlemania? The main event clearly has a story that was built up. The only blank spot is the brief time Reigns was injured and no one knew how to script promos for him.

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That's probably not a fair assessment on their part, but the Superman booking, and too much too soon push has sent all the red flags up to that fan base that doesn't want that kind of character on top anymore. The underdog everyman guys are the ones getting over. Big strong cool looking dude that could kick your ass and take your girl is a heel to today's fan base. It's just different times, and Vince needs to adapt.

 

 

While I agree they need to adapt, I think people genuinely like Reigns. This isn't a Batista-esque backlash, IMO, which makes it all the more frustrating that WWE has botched it so badly with him. There was a way they could have gone about building him up into a big-time babyface without stepping all over the readymade story that everyone wanted to see (Bryan coming back to conquer Lesnar).

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I thought the Divas section was punishment for Brie's comments from a week ago.  You can't tell a story in three minutes?  Try 30 seconds, Mrs. Pull-Out!

 

Wouldn't she have lost if that was punishment?

 

Eh, I don't know.  I'm probably investing too much thought into it, when it's really as simple as the Divas always get crapped on.  :(

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I think if they want to give people the room to like Reigns, but they don't want Bryan in the title picture, then give Bryan a compelling story of his own so people don't constantly mix up Roman's push with Bryan not getting to do something awesome they want to see.

 

Give him something awesome to do!  Christ, they kept Savage busy for years with stuff where he got to just be cool and exact vengeance and get cheered.  Stop teasing people with Bryan's B+ show-the-world storyline and then pulling back at the last second and then expecting them to cheer whoever's left standing in that Daniel Bryan shaped spot.

 

Separate them!  Separate Bryan from the belt.  Let him feud with someone awesome over something that he can make seem important, and then no one has any reason not to cheer the default babyface in the title feud.

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Cole Miner, on 24 Feb 2015 - 11:19 AM, said:

 

Burgundy LaRue, on 24 Feb 2015 - 10:48 AM, said:

But if the die hards will stick with the company no matter what--what's the point of complaining so much?  Again, I'm not suggesting that naysayers shouldn't express their opinions.  No one is suggesting that anyone pretend to like something they don't.  But if this audience is so smart and knows the machinations of pro wrestling, yet still complains--then where are we?  Because Vince isn't changing at this point.

 

Something needs to give.  Who or what that is, I don't know.

All I know is I don't want the people that would have made Zack Ryder a top guy making that choice. I don't want people that think Cena can't wrestle when he has had a great career in ring making that choice. Those people are the Daniel Bryan fans.

 

Yes they are along with every other demographic that makes up the WWE's fan base since he's the most universally loved WWE wrestler since The Rock.

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But if the die hards will stick with the company no matter what--what's the point of complaining so much?  Again, I'm not suggesting that naysayers shouldn't express their opinions.  No one is suggesting that anyone pretend to like something they don't.  But if this audience is so smart and knows the machinations of pro wrestling, yet still complains--then where are we?  Because Vince isn't changing at this point.

 

Something needs to give.  Who or what that is, I don't know.

All I know is I don't want the people that would have made Zack Ryder a top guy making that choice. I don't want people that think Cena can't wrestle when he has had a great career in ring making that choice. Those people are the Daniel Bryan fans.

 

 

That's bullshit.  Ryder is awful and only the real wackos wanted him to be a top guy.

 

Everyone in the building is a Bryan fan.

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Fallacy!, on 24 Feb 2015 - 11:21 AM, said:

 

JCM, on 24 Feb 2015 - 11:15 AM, said:

That's probably not a fair assessment on their part, but the Superman booking, and too much too soon push has sent all the red flags up to that fan base that doesn't want that kind of character on top anymore. The underdog everyman guys are the ones getting over. Big strong cool looking dude that could kick your ass and take your girl is a heel to today's fan base. It's just different times, and Vince needs to adapt.

 

 

While I agree they need to adapt, I think people genuinely like Reigns. This isn't a Batista-esque backlash, IMO, which makes it all the more frustrating that WWE has botched it so badly with him. There was a way they could have gone about building him up into a big-time babyface without stepping all over the readymade story that everyone wanted to see (Bryan coming back to conquer Lesnar).

 

I agree 100%. Like I said earlier if you put Reigns opposite Rusev he'd be getting great reactions right now. Vince jumped the gun to put it all on Reigns this year, and it's basically sabotaged his baby face run. He can get there eventually, but the damage has been done.

 

piranesi wrote

 

"Stop teasing people with Bryan's B+ show-the-world storyline and then pulling back at the last second and then expecting them to cheer whoever's left standing in that Daniel Bryan shaped spot."

 

But it worked so well with Big Show the first time.

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Jraq is a complete wrecking ball in this thread and I applaud him for it. It's really fucked when some people get upset at others for voicing their discontent with these shows. Raw isn't good. You could turn your brain off to the point where you're staring at the wall and drooling and doesn't make Raw better. It's still really shitty and the booking/writing is completely counterproductive. It's great some of you can do that, and better on you, but many of us want Vince and the writing staff to pull their head out of their ass and make this a watchable show and not something that is a chore or that you need to fast forward through.

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And another fucking thing...Piranesi said this on one of these goddamn pages:

 

 

Bikertaker

 

Fuck. Yes. Give me the motherfucking Bikertaker.

 

Fuck the deadman.

 

Fuck the corporate ministry Undertaker.

 

I want Bray to think he's getting the man who got beat by Brock Lesnar last year, only to get a motorcycle riding son of a bitch who is gonna throw some motherfucking hambones and drop punk cards on motherfuckers. I want American Badass or Rollin', as god awful as those songs are, to blare in the arena. I want goddamn Booger Red to shock Bray. I want Taker to drop a punk card on Bray, asking him if he was expecting someone else.

 

Yeah. I want the Undertaker to beat Bray at Wrestlemania, get on his motorcycle, ride it back to the stage, stop, hold a fist in the air, soak it all in, and the continue riding to the back.

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Can I just have my Brock/Rusev match that's all I'll ask for this year.

 

 

Why can't we have things like this on tv?

 

 

and this

 

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Oh for the love of Christ. Yes, forget the WWE's terribly illogical writing - the live crowds are the real issue here.

Yeah, but what was illogical at all about the Reigns/Heyman segment that prompted this segment? A heel manager builds up his client in a way to intimidate his opponent/make himself seem more important/etc. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that at all if you watch wrestling like a normal person.

But if you get into the whole meta game -- that's where the problem comes into play. And, yes, that's the live crowd's fault.

What was illogical about the segment is that the only storyline involving Reigns the past few months is that he does not deserve his spot. WWE has attempted to spend the last month convincing you he does deserve it.

The point of Heymans segment was to build Reigns up in a way he can't himself. Name dropping the all time greats was the wrong way to do it. It emphasizes the exact problem people have with him.

And yes it was coming from a heel but that part of the promo was lacking heel elements. The purpose of that part of the promo was to sell you on Reigns.

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The only thing this thread has shown me is that Greggulator is a better cult leader than Bray Wyatt is.

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But if the die hards will stick with the company no matter what--what's the point of complaining about stuffing instead of potatoes so much?  Again, I'm not suggesting that naysayers shouldn't express their opinions.  No one is suggesting that anyone pretend to like something they don't.  But if this audience is so smart and knows the machinations of pro wrestling, yet still complains--then where are we?  Because Vince isn't changing at this point.

 

Something needs to give.  Who or what that is, I don't know.

 

I'd prefer if Vince and those evil writers just came up with stories that had a beginning, middle, and end and did that. And screw it. Marvel's not letting fans write their comic books.

 

 

You mean stories like Brock defeats the streak, destroys all comers, gets dethroned at Wrestlemania by the young upstart Reigns? Reigns who was the muscle for the Hounds of Justice,a group so powerful they only were stopped by themselves. Reigns who was immediately in the title picture, beat cleanly a former WWE WHC at a main PPV, won the Rumble which he barely lost last year, fought the man who never lost the title to retain his shot at dethroning the Beast at Wrestlemania? The main event clearly has a story that was built up. The only blank spot is the brief time Reigns was injured and no one knew how to script promos for him.

 

 

Yes. This.

Obviously Reigns could have been put together a little bit better. The fairy tale promo was dumb. But aside from that, he didn't really say anything past "I'm on the shelf but I'll be back" or "I'm back and I'm going to beat (name of opponent) up." Along the way, this somehow became "shoved down everyone's throats" and the like.

It's a Clash of Titans. Two dudes who have torn through everyone (for the most part) on their way to battle. Is Reigns really big enough and bad enough and tough enough to take down The 1 in 21 and 1, and on the biggest stage of them all?

I'm glad they stuck with their guns and just told that, no matter how it ends. 

 

So is Rusev against Cena. Rusev has gone through everyone. He's barely even been challenged. The one guy who did hold his own against him is Cena, who only lost to him because of an intentional low blow causing him to pass out. And even with that, Rusev still kicked out of a whole bunch of Cena's finishing moves. Cena never quit, despite Lana and Rusev's boasts. And the US military loving Cena wants revenge against the would-be Russian conqueror.

I also really like what they've done with Bray and the Undertaker so far. Bray sees weakness in the Deadman and wants to become what he once was -- the man everyone is completely afraid of. We haven't seen the Taker return yet, though, so we don't know what that will look like. But Bray has a clear motivation. Does he beat Taker? Or does the wounded hero return and conquer the newest supernatural monster?

Sting vs. HHH has also been pretty well-done. The mysterious Sting has returned for his own mysterious reasons against HHH. He doesn't need to explain why he's there -- He was the one avenger against the nWo and sees HHH for what he is. Of course, Trips thinks Sting's jealous/wants more DVD money etc. since he's an overly impressed j-o. Now Sting is in HHH's head (see his sullen mood last night after he was humiliated at Fast Lane). Does this lead him to victory over the WWE's most consistent force of evil?

All of this is there. It's easy to see.

And it's really enjoyable if you take out the background meta noise.

 

Reigns doesn't deserve this spot? OMGZ Cena's going to just go over again! Bray and Taker can't have a good match! Sting vs. HHH will be terrible and HHH never puts everyone over!!!

They can definitely tighten up a lot of things. They ALWAYS can make some improvements. But Raw is far from awful. That's four fun feuds right there that they've been building towards for a while, with a payoff in sight.

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Oh for the love of Christ. Yes, forget the WWE's terribly illogical writing - the live crowds are the real issue here.

Yeah, but what was illogical at all about the Reigns/Heyman segment that prompted this segment? A heel manager builds up his client in a way to intimidate his opponent/make himself seem more important/etc. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that at all if you watch wrestling like a normal person.

But if you get into the whole meta game -- that's where the problem comes into play. And, yes, that's the live crowd's fault.

What was illogical about the segment is that the only storyline involving Reigns the past few months is that he does not deserve his spot. WWE has attempted to spend the last month convincing you he does deserve it.

The point of Heymans segment was to build Reigns up in a way he can't himself. Name dropping the all time greats was the wrong way to do it. It emphasizes the exact problem people have with him.

And yes it was coming from a heel but that part of the promo was lacking heel elements. The purpose of that part of the promo was to sell you on Reigns.

 

 

 

Should Heyman say: "You don't deserve this match. You're not Austin or Rock or Daniel Bryan. You have no chance against Brock?" Because if Brock beats Reigns, it means nothing. But if Reigns beats Brock, it's a fluke. That is truly, truly dumb.

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I liked Reigns tonight. He seemed more natural in his promos and reactions.

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That is actually how I would book it. Present Reigns as the blue chipper who is in over his head but is the only chance WWE has of getting the title off Brock before he leaves the company.

Reigns has a very impressive resume but he's going to have to start tossing 400 pounders around before the match is viewed as a clash of the Titans. Spearing Big Show was a nice start.

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That's bullshit.  Ryder is awful and only the real wackos wanted him to be a top guy.

 

Everyone in the building is a Bryan fan.

 

Well I should have been more specific since I was referring to the zealots like the people booing at the Rumble. It wasn't the whole crowd booing him at the Rumble. Reigns had supporters.  Zack Ryder didn't have the whole crowd like Bryan but he did have the ones booing at the Rumble. Same folks chanting Cena sucks. I might not trust Vince McMahon's judgement a whole lot these days but I trust it more than the people that think Cena can't work.

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People booed the Rumble because it fucking sucked.

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Can I think Cena's a good worker but still think his character's stale?

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Fucking Steve Austin booed that. Do you want to disagree with Steve Austin?

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People booed the Rumble because it fucking sucked.

How Noble still has a job as an agent after laying out that turd is amazing.

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I think it's part Noble and part the workers. Austin dissected the Rumble with scalpel like precision. It wasn't all the booking. I mean, you have the guy who is going to take the...reigns...of the company taking a breather in the corner, just letting shit happen. Kane and Show looked completely disinterested at points, and plain lazy at other points.

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Raziel403, on 24 Feb 2015 - 12:29 PM, said:

 

Craig H, on 24 Feb 2015 - 12:27 PM, said:

People booed the Rumble because it fucking sucked.

How Noble still has a job as an agent after laying out that turd is amazing.

 

HBK and Jericho put Noble over as a great agent. Noble isn't the guy deciding who to throw who out and when. Vince obviously wanted Bray to dominate early to get ready for Taker so you have to book him as the man the first 10 spots which was done reasonably well. Then Vince wanted to toss the most over guy in the company like a sack of shit after he worked with Fandango and Tyson Kidd for a few minutes. There wasn't much to be done to salvage the match after that, but I can't imagine it was Noble's idea to dump Mizdow(who had the crowd back) like a Bushwacker, and have Show and Kane kill all the other faces the crowd liked.

 

Vince booked something he knew the fans would hate, and expected Rock to save his ass. The match was crap, but the booking was worse.

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As a fan, here's the best and only way to summarize the show:

 

I don't give a fuck about Wrestlemania.

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