Raw 2-23-15

[JCM]

Yeah Greg I think they are booing for exactly those reasons. HHH eluded to it on the podcast with Austin. The modern day WWE audience can't be manipulated to cheer a guy through the means Vince is trying to use. They know exactly what's going on, and the reaction they're supposed to be giving. That's more on the booking than it is the audience. This is their true fan base now. We're not in a boom period, and these are the die hards that are going to stick with them no matter what.

 

There is a much larger portion of the audience smart to the business than they were 15 or even 10 years ago. They've pushed social media, they've pushed shoot interviews on their own Network so now they have to deal with a smart fan base that already knows they can change the booking with their reactions.

 

It's not a new thing for the WWE audience to reject a guy they feel is being over pushed. It's been going on for a while, and recent examples like Swagger, Sheamus, and Del Rio should be in the back of Vince's mind.

[Greggulator]

The WWE's true fan base is therefore the worst.

[Fallacy!]

I don't understand why people get upset when things they are passionate about suck.

[Cole Miner]

The WWE's true fan base is therefore the worst.

Almost always been true. When it comes to the audience the wrong promotion won the Monday Night Wars.

[JCM]

It is what it is. They can adapt or continue having most of their roster met with apathy, and the main guy they're pushing get booed every night. Bryan vs Brock, and Reigns vs Rusev solves all of their problems. Reigns would be cheered in that spot, and it would allow him to progress more naturally up the card. That time he missed with the hernia really hurt him.

 

I mean there's a realistic chance Rusev is going to be babyfaced at Mania that's the level of snark we're looking at here. For me I think current Cena is like late career Michael Jordan and Joe Montana. I hated those guys at their peak when they were beating my favorite teams, but late in their careers I gained more respect for what they'd accomplished and appreciated that I got to see a legend do his thing.

 

I hope the WWE audience comes around on Cena like that, and cheers him at Mania, but I'm really not holding my breath.

[Burgundy LaRue]

But if the die hards will stick with the company no matter what--what's the point of complaining so much?  Again, I'm not suggesting that naysayers shouldn't express their opinions.  No one is suggesting that anyone pretend to like something they don't.  But if this audience is so smart and knows the machinations of pro wrestling, yet still complains--then where are we?  Because Vince isn't changing at this point.

 

Something needs to give.  Who or what that is, I don't know.

[Fallacy!]

But if the die hards will stick with the company no matter what--what's the point of complaining about stuffing instead of potatoes so much? Again, I'm not suggesting that naysayers shouldn't express their opinions. No one is suggesting that anyone pretend to like something they don't. But if this audience is so smart and knows the machinations of pro wrestling, yet still complains--then where are we? Because Vince isn't changing at this point.

Something needs to give. Who or what that is, I don't know.

He pretty clearly changed Wrestlemania last year based on the crowd.

[Greggulator]

But if the die hards will stick with the company no matter what--what's the point of complaining about stuffing instead of potatoes so much?  Again, I'm not suggesting that naysayers shouldn't express their opinions.  No one is suggesting that anyone pretend to like something they don't.  But if this audience is so smart and knows the machinations of pro wrestling, yet still complains--then where are we?  Because Vince isn't changing at this point.

 

Something needs to give.  Who or what that is, I don't know.

 

I'd prefer if Vince and those evil writers just came up with stories that had a beginning, middle, and end and did that. And screw it. Marvel's not letting fans write their comic books.

[SolidGoldBomb]

 

Yeah I mean this obvious insincere promo also had complete facts like Heyman taking Roman in Rumble and taking him over Bryan just because. Let's consider who's writing this, and let's consider the fact that he has no f'n clue how to get a babyface over in front of his audience in the year 2015. Most of the guys he tries to ship down the card end up more over than the ones he focuses on. If Vince started paying attention to Sandow I'm sure he could kill his reaction in a month or so.

IF ROMAN REIGNS SAYS "I'm better than Austin. I'm better than Shawn Michaels. I'm better than..." -- I get why the audience boos. That's an arrogant statement. Even if he's a confidence face, if you like Austin better, you'll be mad at that.

 

But if the audience is booing for the reasons you say they are -- That members of the audience are watching a heel cut a promo on his client's opponent, and are sitting there and saying: "This isn't Heyman saying this. This is Vince McMahon trying to ram Roman Reigns down our throats! He thinks Roman is that good and he's not! He's not ready yet! He was carried in The Shield! BOOOO!!!!"

If it's as you all say, then we're at the point where wrestling fandom is the worst. Literally the worst. How is that line of thinking even remotely fun when you go watch a live theatrical performance? We're now at a point where thousands of people go to an arena to make these meta critical judgments about something they are watching unfold. Would you do that for movies?

How is that even remotely fun or productive for life in any manner whatsoever? WWE live audiences are now filled with Comic Book Guys. It's the worst.

 

 

It's sad because you're right, wrestling fandom is easily in the worst place ever.  Not a lot of people know how to be good fans anymore.  They think they are being manipulated by Vince and are too smart to be worked, so they're trying to rebel against what they are expected to do.  They go to shows to be contrarian and boo the faces and cheer the heels, and they don't even realize they aren't doing anyone any favors, it's not helping the performers, the other fans or the creative team, the waters just get muddied and everyone gets a mixed reaction nowadays with half and half support from the crowd.  It's just more fun to go with the flow, get in touch with your inner child, and feed into the acts while suspending your disbelief instead of stomping your feet when things don't go one specific way, and trying to sabotage the shows.  Cheer the people you're supposed to cheer, and boo the heels, it is more fun. And I still love good heels too, but it's just more fun to get into the act especially at a live show!  The kids in the audience will thank you.

 

MAJOR Props to Raziel as well for manning up and trying a new approach to watching and enjoying it.  I applaud you, and wish more people would really hear your message.  I'm out of likes, but I owe you one.

[Raziel]

I blame Heyman for letting the Mutants in ECW think they were part of the show and not spectators, and that snowballed into fans thinking they're the show all over the place, and not watching it.

[Burgundy LaRue]

 

But if the die hards will stick with the company no matter what--what's the point of complaining about stuffing instead of potatoes so much? Again, I'm not suggesting that naysayers shouldn't express their opinions. No one is suggesting that anyone pretend to like something they don't. But if this audience is so smart and knows the machinations of pro wrestling, yet still complains--then where are we? Because Vince isn't changing at this point.

Something needs to give. Who or what that is, I don't know.

He pretty clearly changed Wrestlemania last year based on the crowd.

 

 

Which, in hindsight, was a big mistake.  There are two mistakes to be made in situations like these:  Not giving the people what they want, and giving the people exactly what they want.  WWE has made both mistakes.

[Jrag]

Blaming the crowds is such a cop out.  If the fans aren't doing what the WWE wants it's their own damn fault.

[Fallacy!]

Oh for the love of Christ. Yes, forget the WWE's terribly illogical writing - the live crowds are the real issue here.

These last few posts read like what I'd imagine an internal WWE memo to sound like: "Don't worry guys, the problem isn't us. The problem is how the fans react to the show. Sincerely, Kevin Dunn."

[SolidGoldBomb]

Let me take this moment to be a man and publicly apoligize to Gregg for the shit I've given him over the year plus.  He was right, I was wrong.

 

Wrestling is much more fun to watch when you sit back and ride along instead of getting constantly pissed off and indignant when things don't go your way.  

 

I'd like to thank the Bryan Zealots for helping me see Gregg's point, and since I've backed off being constantly pissed at the show, I've enjoyed it much more.

 

 

 

This is 100% serious.

 

 

A lot of you should lighten the fuck up.

 

[Greggulator]

Oh for the love of Christ. Yes, forget the WWE's terribly illogical writing - the live crowds are the real issue here.

 

 

Yeah, but what was illogical at all about the Reigns/Heyman segment that prompted this segment? A heel manager builds up his client in a way to intimidate his opponent/make himself seem more important/etc. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that at all if you watch wrestling like a normal person.

But if you get into the whole meta game -- that's where the problem comes into play. And, yes, that's the live crowd's fault.

[Brian Fowler]

All I really want out of pro wrestling right now is the divas getting more time, and more Bryan, Cena, Rollins, and Brock.

There are a lot of other guys I like, but if I keep getting those four in good spots, I'm good.

[Fallacy!]

Oh for the love of Christ. Yes, forget the WWE's terribly illogical writing - the live crowds are the real issue here.

Yeah, but what was illogical at all about the Reigns/Heyman segment that prompted this segment? A heel manager builds up his client in a way to intimidate his opponent/make himself seem more important/etc. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that at all if you watch wrestling like a normal person.

But if you get into the whole meta game -- that's where the problem comes into play. And, yes, that's the live crowd's fault.

I think you're looking into it way deeper than anyone in that arena did. Live crowds pop at the mere mention of Austin's name. This one was already lukewarm to Reigns, and comparing him to their favorite legend didn't do him any favors. I don't think it was anything more than "Boooo we love Austin and this guy is no Austin."

So no, it's not the crowd's fault. It's WWE's fault for being out of touch and creating a scenario where it's groomed next top babyface gets booed out of the arena again.

[Burgundy LaRue]

Fallacy--you're not entirely wrong.  I think on some level, we all agree with you.

 

No one is fighting with you on this.

 

But where I think some are missing the point:  While it can be too pull-the-curtains and see the sausage being made with its mere existence, social media can also be used to manipulate people.  That's ultimately what's wrong with WWE, why magicians aren't cool anymore, and the like.  People try to be too smart when it should be understood that by watching and going to the shows, you're agreeing to be conned.  You know what's happening--it's just a question of how well the con artist can pull off their selling.

 

Learn a new means to con the masses, and things fall back into place.

 

There has to be a way to out-meta the meta crowd.  Whether anyone in WWE is smart enough to figure that out--we'll see.

 

But the audience needs to understand that by participating, they're agreeing to the setup. So at least try to find some joy in it.

[SolidGoldBomb]

Oh for the love of Christ. Yes, forget the WWE's terribly illogical writing - the live crowds are the real issue here.

These last few posts read like what I'd imagine an internal WWE memo to sound like: "Don't worry guys, the problem isn't us. The problem is how the fans react to the show. Sincerely, Kevin Dunn."

 

Greg just said he wants there to be better writing.  I want there to be better writing, Raziel, Burgundy, mco, FSW, We all want WWE to be the best because we all love wrestling.  But we are going about this very differently, some of us are using constructive criticism and accentuating the positives and going with the story....and then there is what a lot of people here do HATE HATE HATE!  It's bitchin and moaning constantly week after week with no real solution other than trying to ruin the enjoyment for the people who love WWE and convince us that everything sucks.  If it sucks then leave, you are free to go find what you love. But if you're gonna be here with us every week, learn to love it and go with the con!

[Jrag]

Gregg is almost certainly fighting him on this.

[Fallacy!]

 

Oh for the love of Christ. Yes, forget the WWE's terribly illogical writing - the live crowds are the real issue here.

These last few posts read like what I'd imagine an internal WWE memo to sound like: "Don't worry guys, the problem isn't us. The problem is how the fans react to the show. Sincerely, Kevin Dunn."

 

Greg just said he wants there to be better writing.  I want there to be better writing, Raziel, Burgundy, mco, FSW, We all want WWE to be the best because we all love wrestling.  But we are going about this very differently, some of us are using constructive criticism and accentuating the positives and going with the story....and then there is what a lot of people here do HATE HATE HATE!  It's bitchin and moaning constantly week after week with no real solution other than trying to ruin the enjoyment for the people who love WWE and convince us that everything sucks.  If it sucks then leave, you are free to go find what you love. But if you're gonna be here with us every week, learn to love it and go with the con!

 

 

Maybe follow your own advice and just let people react to the show how they want to? There's a segment of posters here who get more upset with people not liking the show, than the actual show itself being bad. That's so weird to me.

[JCM]

I think this has been coming to a head for a long time. There was a healthy size of the fan base that never bought into Cena as the top guy. Cena's had an unprecedented run for modern wrestling with 10 years on top. Reigns is in the same position Luger was in 93. The fans are desperate for something new on top, and they see the guy being groomed for the spot a rehash of what they want to be rid of.

 

 

That's probably not a fair assessment on their part, but the Superman booking, and too much too soon push has sent all the red flags up to that fan base that doesn't want that kind of character on top anymore. The underdog everyman guys are the ones getting over. Big strong cool looking dude that could kick your ass and take your girl is a heel to today's fan base. It's just different times, and Vince needs to adapt.
 

[Brysynner]

I thought the Divas section was punishment for Brie's comments from a week ago.  You can't tell a story in three minutes?  Try 30 seconds, Mrs. Pull-Out!

 

Wouldn't she have lost if that was punishment?

[Jrag]

You can't promote Twitter non-stop, run a billion wrestling documentaries on your network, show Vince and HHH shoot interviews ON YOUR NETWORK, give Punk the freedom to say whatever he wanted in 2011 etc etc etc..  and then expect the audience to act like it's 1992 when you want to push Reigns.

 

It's on them.  It's not the crowds fault.

[Fallacy!]

 

But the audience needs to understand that by participating, they're agreeing to the setup. So at least try to find some joy in it.

 

I think my problem with this whole "meta crowd" argument is it seems like a way to try to punish people for being really passionately, emotionally invested in wrestling.

 

Like, I really like pro wrestling, so of course I want to see a potential greatest match of all-time (Bryan vs. Brock). And I really like Daniel Bryan, so of course I want to see him in the best possible match. I really like Roman Reigns, so I hate to see him constantly put in positions that turn people against him and deter from his push. I really like Seth Rollins, so I hate to see him back relegated to being an Authority flunky after having a MOTYC last month. I really like Dolph Ziggler, so I hate to see him flounder aimlessly with Big Show and Kane when WWE has already shown (see: Survivor Series) that they know what he can do in the ring, and know how much the fans love him. I don't particularly care for Randy Orton, but I was really digging his comeback and so it pisses me off when they completely reset four months of booking and buildup to take the most illogical route possible with his character.

 

I'd love to sit back and just nod and smile through that all, but I love wrestling and it makes me angry when it's stupid. I don't think that makes me a bad fan, and if people in the live crowds are reacting for the same reason, it doesn't make them bad fans either.