JRGoldman Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 I wasn't thinking about it earlier, but does Joe have any stuff from IWA MS that holds up? The one I can think of off the top of my head is the Necro match. I guess I could be convinced that it was the best ever Necro match. I find it interesting (and probably just a natural product of the board's overall taste) that we haven't brought up anyone from ECW at all. Does thinking about ECW help Cactus or even a dude like Tajiri at all? Maybe Raven even gets some run for having the best Pitbulls match, the best Dreamer match (pretty low bar) and maybe some others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ultimoDANK Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 I wasn't thinking about it earlier, but does Joe have any stuff from IWA MS that holds up? The one I can think of off the top of my head is the Necro match. I guess I could be convinced that it was the best ever Necro match. I find it interesting (and probably just a natural product of the board's overall taste) that we haven't brought up anyone from ECW at all. Does thinking about ECW help Cactus or even a dude like Tajiri at all? Maybe Raven even gets some run for having the best Pitbulls match, the best Dreamer match (pretty low bar) and maybe some others.Joe vs Hero 5/29/04 is worth tracking down for the crowd heat alone. I've been to alot of Midwest Indy shows and that was by far the craziest crowd I was ever apart of. Watching it in tape you can see even Joe & Hero are suprised and clearly pull an audible on what they planned to do. Not the best match but worth seeing.Tajiri is definitely helped by ECW. The Super Crazy series alone has to drive his #'s up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mookieghana Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 I wasn't thinking about it earlier, but does Joe have any stuff from IWA MS that holds up? The one I can think of off the top of my head is the Necro match. I guess I could be convinced that it was the best ever Necro match. I find it interesting (and probably just a natural product of the board's overall taste) that we haven't brought up anyone from ECW at all. Does thinking about ECW help Cactus or even a dude like Tajiri at all? Maybe Raven even gets some run for having the best Pitbulls match, the best Dreamer match (pretty low bar) and maybe some others. Jerry Lynn also had some great stuff in ECW: he probably gave Justin Credible, RVD and Steve Corino their best matches and he held his own when he was in with Tajiri & Super Crazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaedmc Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 Corino's best match was with Tajiri. Guido probably did his best work with Tajiri or Super Crazy. Was CW Anderson vs. Kid Kash, Kash's best singles match? His tag against Mikey and Tajiri is probably his best overall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEN! Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 @IAmJericho: So long to @WWE for now…2013 was one of my favorite in ring yrs ever! Thx for always sticking w Y2J & see u on the road soon w @FOZZYROCK! Jericho must be one of those guys that never watches their own stuff back. For his future returns, however diminishing, he should remember to bring his pecs with him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRGoldman Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 I actually think that Jericho would make a really good authority figure in a couple years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie M. Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 Jericho must be one of those guys that never watches their own stuff back. For his future returns, however diminishing, he should remember to bring his pecs with him. He said favorite, not best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRV Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 I want at least one more run from tiny upset heel Jericho in a suit though. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victator Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 Corino vs CW Anderson is Corino's best match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRGoldman Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 Vic, if I'm remembering right, you have watched an absolute ton of ECW stuff, yeah? Who are your picks for being responsible for the most best matches from their opponents? I have been thinking about how fun this might be to do for each promotion (or at least modern promotions). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peck Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 If they created a masked jobber named What?, would that in any way affect crowd chants? Jim Neidhart is available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nofuture Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 Jim Neidhart is available. Who? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SovietShooter Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 Vic, if I'm remembering right, you have watched an absolute ton of ECW stuff, yeah? Who are your picks for being responsible for the most best matches from their opponents? I have been thinking about how fun this might be to do for each promotion (or at least modern promotions).Rhyno got the absolute best out of Sandman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaedmc Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 I loved those Rhino/Sandy matches. I remeber people would complain because people didn't like Rhino going over, but I loved the guy so I didn't care. Rhino goring Sandman while Sandy is holding Lori, is a perfect finish, to a really good match. Vic, if I'm remembering right, you have watched an absolute ton of ECW stuff, yeah? Who are your picks for being responsible for the most best matches from their opponents? I have been thinking about how fun this might be to do for each promotion (or at least modern promotions).It's probably Lance Storm. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mookieghana Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 An insightful person on Twitter suggested that I refine my star analysis by looking at who seems to significantly bring people's star ratings up whenever they wrestle. Again, normal singles matches are the easier way to look at this. Here's how I looked at it (Methodology discussion) Take "Kurt Angle vs Rey Mysterio" - they had 8 singles matches between them that were rated: 8/25/02 Kurt Angle vs. Rey Mysterio ***3/4 1/23/03 Kurt Angle vs. Rey Mysterio ***3/4 8/26/04 Kurt Angle vs. Rey Mysterio ***1/2 10/28/04 Kurt Angle vs. Rey Mysterio ***1/4 2/10/05 Rey Mysterio vs. Kurt Angle **** 3/31/06 Kurt Angle vs. Rey Mysterio ***1/4 4/28/06 Rey Mysterio vs. Kurt Angle ***1/2 6/2/06 Rey Mysterio vs. Kurt Angle ****1/4 Average Rey Mysterio vs Kurt Angle rating: 3.66 stars. Kurt Angle had 68 total singles matches (3.71 average). If you exclude the Rey/Kurt singles matches, Kurt's singles average for the other 60 matches was 3.72. Rey Mysterio had 55 total singles matches (3.53 average). If you exclude the Rey/Kurt singles matches, Rey's singles average for the other 47 matches was 3.51. So, when Rey had matches with Kurt Angle, Rey was about +0.15 points higher than his usual single match opponent. However, when Kurt wrestled Rey, Kurt was actually slightly below his average (-0.06 lower). In this example, I would give Kurt Angle +0.15 points and Rey Mysterio would get -0.06. In the end, I add up all of the points and count how many feuds we have to compare. 24 People had a lots of Feuds (10+) we could compare/contrast including a lot of the people that were being mentioned: Bret Hart, Chris Benoit, Chris Jericho, Christian, CM Punk, Dolph Ziggler, Eddy Guerrero, Edge, Jeff Hardy, John Cena, Kurt Angle, Matt Hardy, Mick Foley, Randy Orton, Rey Mysterio, Ric Flair, Rob Van Dam, Rock, Shawn Michaels, Sheamus, Shelton Benjamin, Steve Austin, Triple H, Undertaker Significant Improvement Shawn Michaels: 34 singles feuds = +0.28 improvement to opponent's average rating Chris Benoit: 21 singles feuds = +0.27 improvement to opponent's average rating John Cena: 22 singles feuds = +0.20 improvement to opponent's average rating Mick Foley: 11 singles feuds = +0.17 improvement to opponent's average rating Some improvement Steve Austin: 13 singles feuds = 0.08 improvement to opponent's average rating Bret Hart: 20 singles feuds = 0.08 improvement to opponent's average rating Little improvement Edge: 23 singles feuds = 0.03 improvement to opponent's average rating Rock: 13 singles feuds = 0.03 improvement to opponent's average rating Shelton Benjamin: 10 singles feuds = 0.03 improvement to opponent's average rating Chris Jericho: 27 singles feuds = 0.01 improvement to opponent's average rating Kurt Angle: 23 singles feuds = 0.01 improvement to opponent's average rating CM Punk: 18 singles feuds = 0 improvement to opponent's average rating Christian: 16 singles feuds = -0.02 change to opponent's average rating Rey Mysterio: 23 singles feuds = -0.03 change to opponent's average rating Eddy Guerrero: 10 singles feuds = -0.04 change to opponent's average rating Undertaker: 19 singles feuds = -0.04 change to opponent's average rating Dolph Ziggler: 12 singles feuds = -0.05 change to opponent's average rating Jeff Hardy: 12 singles feuds = -0.05 change to opponent's average rating Negative Effect Ric Flair: 10 singles feuds = -0.09 change to opponent's average rating Triple H: 25 singles feuds = -0.09 change to opponent's average rating Randy Orton: 24 singles feuds = -0.09 change to opponent's average rating Rob Van Dam: 14 singles feuds = -0.1 change to opponent's average rating Significant Decrease Matt Hardy: 10 singles feuds = -0.13 change to opponent's average rating Sheamus: 11 singles feuds = -0.26 change to opponent's average rating Again, since all of these ratings/points are based on Dave's star ratings, this could also be linked to any bias he may have against any given wrestler. Additionally, with whom a wrestler is programmed certainly would play a big role in the quality of their various feuds. Further discussion on ranking the people with only a few singles feuds... I tried this with people who had less singles feuds (less than ten), and the results were interesting but I'm not certain the low match counts are playing a role in the results. I am not reading heavily into this. The positive influences among the other people were: Ricky Steamboat (0.32), Daniel Bryan (0.31), Ultimate Warrior (0.24), Curt Hennig (0.2), Randy Savage (0.19), Brock Lesnar (0.12) Flat influences were: John Morrison (0.05), Finlay (0), Owen Hart (-0.01), Tajiri (-0.01), Alberto Del Rio (-0.03) Negative influences were: Shane McMahon (-0.07), Scott Hall (-0.07), Kofi Kingston (-0.08), Evan Bourne (-0.14), Billy Kidman (-0.15) More negative were: Bradshaw (-0.21), Batista (-0.22), Hulk Hogan (-0.26), Umaga (-0.27), Big Show (-0.27), Sean Waltman (-0.27), MVP (-0.3), Vader (-0.3), Miz (-0.36), Jeff Jarrett (-0.37), Extremely negative: Booker T (-0.48), Ken Shamrock (-0.49), Kane (-0.52) Again, Warrior's results were surprising, but I think they're tied to the low feud count among rated matches (suggesting the need to possibly normalize for total feuds / rated feuds or something to that effect.) I put together an update to this analysis with WCW/WWF/ECW results: http://bit.ly/15HTkaD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Web Conn Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 Steve Austin had no idea what he was creating when he halfway goofing around said what in a promo 12 years ago. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevie Ray Von Erich Posted July 18, 2013 Share Posted July 18, 2013 I'm so curious where Big Show would land in Mookieghana's analysis. And it's funny to think about how horrible a Kane and Booker T feud would be given the results. I know they've had a few matches, but I don't think they've ever done a real program as opponents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SovietShooter Posted July 18, 2013 Share Posted July 18, 2013 As far as ECW went... Like I said earlier, I think Rhino got the best out of Sandman. Lynn got the best out of RVD, Credible... RVD got the best out of Sabu Sabu got the best out of Taz... although I'll listen to an argument for Bigelow. I think the Dudleys got the best out of Dreamer. I can't put my finger on who got the best out of Douglas in ECW... was it Scorpio? Bigelow? Pitbull? Funk? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevie Ray Von Erich Posted July 18, 2013 Share Posted July 18, 2013 What abut Scorpio getting the best out of Sabu? I always like Scorpio/Sabu better than the RVD/Sabu series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Man Known as Dan Posted July 18, 2013 Share Posted July 18, 2013 I think any ECW discussion not involving Tajiri is a major over sight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swift Posted July 18, 2013 Share Posted July 18, 2013 Watching some Ladder matches on Netflix. Rob Van Dam's bacne is hideous in HD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaedmc Posted July 18, 2013 Share Posted July 18, 2013 I love what Mookie's doing but I loathe Meltz as a source of opinion on what's good wrestling. Does Cagematch have a way to vote on individual matches? That'd be an interesting source. Especially if we can spam high votes on Mark Henry matches. As far as ECW went... Like I said earlier, I think Rhino got the best out of Sandman. Lynn got the best out of RVD, Credible... RVD got the best out of Sabu Sabu got the best out of Taz... although I'll listen to an argument for Bigelow. I think the Dudleys got the best out of Dreamer. I can't put my finger on who got the best out of Douglas in ECW... was it Scorpio? Bigelow? Pitbull? Funk?To me Born to Be Wired is to Sabu as HIAC is to Foley. People may not think it's the best match but I love it more than just about anything in the company. So the answer would be Funker.Sabu and Taz were great together but Taz/Bigelow may be one of the best wander around and beat the fuck out of each other brawls ever. What is Raven's best match? I don't think it was in ECW. Counting tags it would probably be one of those tags with Saturn against Malenko/Benoit or Rey/Kidman. Those six were doing awesome shit together for a spell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammerva Posted July 18, 2013 Share Posted July 18, 2013 Raven's best match in ECW was probably with Terry Gordy in 1996. It wasn't a great match but the crowd went apeshit that Gordy appeared and Raven sold for him like he was a monster which wasn't really Raven best trait. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Fowler Posted July 18, 2013 Share Posted July 18, 2013 I always felt that the Lynn/Storm and RVD/Ballz matches from... uh, some ppv?... in 1999 were better than any RVD/Lynn match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace Posted July 18, 2013 Share Posted July 18, 2013 Jericho must be one of those guys that never watches their own stuff back. For his future returns, however diminishing, he should remember to bring his pecs with him. To be fair, one of his pecs is torn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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