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July Wrestling Catch-All


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Well, thanks to MookieGhana, I think we now know where Big Dave stands on the HBK v. Undertaker conversation that was on the old boards. 

 

As an aside, I have no idea who MookieGhana is in real life, but I pretend that he is Prince Nana's nerdy brother, and it was his sabermetric style analysis that led to Jimmy Rave becoming the crown jewel of the embassy. He was also probably forced to do a statistical study to find out what in fact people knew about shrimp cocktail. 

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Has there ever been an Iron Man match built around the story of one wrestler scoring a quick pinfall in the first 5-10 minutes of the match then going into prevent defense mode and trying to hold on for a 1-0 win?

 

I feel like Bret vs Flair was like that but I don't remember for certain.

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Well, thanks to MookieGhana, I think we now know where Big Dave stands on the HBK v. Undertaker conversation that was on the old boards. 

I'm still angry about that conversation.  I think people must have been influenced by the current wrestles-once-a-year-in-a-match-that's-worked-on-for-months-leading-up-to-it Undertaker and not horseshit-effort-against-jobbers-every-week-on-Smackdown Undertaker.  Even when Shawn was on auto-pilot, it was a pretty great match.

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Are foleys wwf matches being nominated better than his matches with vader in wcw?

 

Yes.  Hell, his Vader matches aren't event he best of his WCW work.  That would be the two wild brawls with Sting, and the two wild tag brawls with the Nasties.

 

I'm still angry about that conversation.  I think people must have been influenced by the current wrestles-once-a-year-in-a-match-that's-worked-on-for-months-leading-up-to-it Undertaker and not horseshit-effort-against-jobbers-every-week-on-Smackdown Undertaker.  Even when Shawn was on auto-pilot, it was a pretty great match.

 

Ugh.  Shawn on auto-pilot was absolutely fucking terrible.  Which he spent most of the 00's on autopilot, and was mostly absolutely fucking terrible. 

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Has there ever been an Iron Man match built around the story of one wrestler scoring a quick pinfall in the first 5-10 minutes of the match then going into prevent defense mode and trying to hold on for a 1-0 win?

 

Not an Iron Man, but Cabana did this in a 2/3 Falls Match against Danielson for the RoH title.

 

As for UT VS HBK, Undertaker was TERRIBLE in ring for the most part during his "Big Evil" BikerTaker phase. It wasn't until he became the MMA Zombie and started wrestling less and less that he was watchable again.

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Content listing for the upcoming Triple H "Thy Kingdom Come" DVD out Sept 24:

 

Disc 1Documentary 

The Game 

Growing Up 

WCW 

Hunter Hearst Helmsley 

Ninth Wonder of the World 

Mick Foley 

D-Generation X 

Leader 

DX vs. The Nation 

Champion 

McMahon-Helmsley 

The Rock 

Injury 

Evolution 

DX Returns 

Torn and Rebuilt 

Randy Orton 

Actor 

The Undertaker 

Chief Operating Officer 

A Unique BreedDisc 2Jean-Paul Levesque vs. Ricky SteamboatWCW Saturday Night – 3rd September, 1994Hunter Hearst Helmsley vs. Dude LoveOne Night Only – 27th September 1997Iron Man Match for the WWE ChampionshipThe Rock vs. Triple HJudgment Day – 21st May, 2000No Disqualification MatchTriple H vs. Kurt AngleUnforgiven – 24th September, 2000Disc 3All Championships on the LineTriple H & Stone Cold vs. The Undertaker & KaneBacklash – 29th April, 2001World Heavyweight ChampionshipTriple H vs. Rob Van DamRAW – 30th June, 2003Last Man Standing Match for the World Heavyweight ChampionshipShawn Michaels vs. Triple HRoyal Rumble – 25th January, 2004Road to WrestleMania Tournament MatchRic Flair vs. Triple HRAW – 6th February, 2006Return from InjuryTriple H vs. King BookerSummerSlam – 26th August, 2007Last Man Standing Match for the WWE ChampionshipTriple H vs. Randy OrtonNo Mercy – 7th October, 2007Non-Title MatchJeff Hardy vs. Triple HSmackDown – 21st November, 2008Triple H vs. Chris JerichoRAW – 30th November, 2009Blu-ray ExclusivesNo Disqualification / Career on the LineTriple H vs. Brock LesnarWrestleMania 29 – 7th April, 2013StoriesMotivation in High SchoolHard Way InPaul ScreamResumeSherriDiamond CutterHunter Hearst Helmsley – The NameWild ‘n Crazy GuysEvolution’s Fifth Member ??Shawn’s ComebackWrestleMania 26Two Movies at OnceCommemorating the EndWorst Gas on the PlanetCandy BarPraising the BossBehind the ScenesPhoto ShootBehind the Scenes – WrestleMania 29 WeekendTaping WristsThe Levesque GameKing of Signs

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I would say that Kurt Angle vs Shawn at WrestleMania is Kurt's best match.  And I imagine there won't be many to agree with me, but I think the Ironman match is Bret's best match.

 

 

 

For me that's not even the best Angle vs. HBK match. I prefer their Raw match a few weeks later.

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An insightful person on Twitter suggested that I refine my star analysis by looking at who seems to significantly bring people's star ratings up whenever they wrestle.  Again, normal singles matches are the easier way to look at this.

 

Here's how I looked at it (Methodology discussion)

Take "Kurt Angle vs Rey Mysterio" - they had 8 singles matches between them that were rated:

8/25/02 Kurt Angle vs. Rey Mysterio ***3/4
1/23/03 Kurt Angle vs. Rey Mysterio ***3/4
8/26/04 Kurt Angle vs. Rey Mysterio ***1/2
10/28/04 Kurt Angle vs. Rey Mysterio ***1/4
2/10/05 Rey Mysterio vs. Kurt Angle ****
3/31/06 Kurt Angle vs. Rey Mysterio ***1/4
4/28/06 Rey Mysterio vs. Kurt Angle ***1/2
6/2/06 Rey Mysterio vs. Kurt Angle ****1/4
Average Rey Mysterio vs Kurt Angle rating: 3.66 stars.
 
Kurt Angle had 68 total singles matches (3.71 average).  If you exclude the Rey/Kurt singles matches, Kurt's singles average for the other 60 matches was 3.72.
Rey Mysterio had 55 total singles matches (3.53 average).  If you exclude the Rey/Kurt singles matches, Rey's singles average for the other 47 matches was 3.51.
 
So, when Rey had matches with Kurt Angle, Rey was about +0.15 points higher than his usual single match opponent.  However, when Kurt wrestled Rey, Kurt was actually slightly below his average (-0.06 lower).
In this example, I would give Kurt Angle +0.15 points and Rey Mysterio would get -0.06.
 
In the end, I add up all of the points and count how many feuds we have to compare.

 
24 People had a lots of Feuds (10+) we could compare/contrast including a lot of the people that were being mentioned:
Bret Hart, Chris Benoit, Chris Jericho, Christian, CM Punk, Dolph Ziggler, Eddy Guerrero, Edge, Jeff Hardy, John Cena, Kurt Angle, Matt Hardy, Mick Foley, Randy Orton, Rey Mysterio, Ric Flair, Rob Van Dam, Rock, Shawn Michaels, Sheamus, Shelton Benjamin, Steve Austin, Triple H, Undertaker
 
Significant Improvement
Shawn Michaels: 34 singles feuds = +0.28 improvement to opponent's average rating
Chris Benoit: 21 singles feuds = +0.27 improvement to opponent's average rating
John Cena: 22 singles feuds = +0.20 improvement to opponent's average rating
Mick Foley: 11 singles feuds = +0.17 improvement to opponent's average rating
 
Some improvement
Steve Austin: 13 singles feuds = 0.08 improvement to opponent's average rating
Bret Hart: 20 singles feuds = 0.08 improvement to opponent's average rating
 
Little improvement
Edge: 23 singles feuds = 0.03 improvement to opponent's average rating
Rock: 13 singles feuds = 0.03 improvement to opponent's average rating
Shelton Benjamin: 10 singles feuds = 0.03 improvement to opponent's average rating
Chris Jericho: 27 singles feuds = 0.01 improvement to opponent's average rating
Kurt Angle: 23 singles feuds = 0.01 improvement to opponent's average rating
CM Punk: 18 singles feuds = 0 improvement to opponent's average rating
Christian: 16 singles feuds = -0.02 change to opponent's average rating
Rey Mysterio: 23 singles feuds = -0.03 change to opponent's average rating
Eddy Guerrero: 10 singles feuds = -0.04 change to opponent's average rating
Undertaker: 19 singles feuds = -0.04 change to opponent's average rating
Dolph Ziggler: 12 singles feuds = -0.05 change to opponent's average rating
Jeff Hardy: 12 singles feuds = -0.05 change to opponent's average rating
 
Negative Effect
Ric Flair: 10 singles feuds = -0.09 change to opponent's average rating
Triple H: 25 singles feuds = -0.09 change to opponent's average rating
Randy Orton: 24 singles feuds = -0.09 change to opponent's average rating
Rob Van Dam: 14 singles feuds = -0.1 change to opponent's average rating
 
Significant Decrease
Matt Hardy: 10 singles feuds = -0.13 change to opponent's average rating
Sheamus: 11 singles feuds = -0.26 change to opponent's average rating
 
Again, since all of these ratings/points are based on Dave's star ratings, this could also be linked to any bias he may have against any given wrestler. Additionally, with whom a wrestler is programmed certainly would play a big role in the quality of their various feuds.
 
Further discussion on ranking the people with only a few singles feuds...

I tried this with people who had less singles feuds (less than ten), and the results were interesting but I'm not certain the low match counts are playing a role in the results. I am not reading heavily into this.
The positive influences among the other people were: Ricky Steamboat (0.32), Daniel Bryan (0.31), Ultimate Warrior (0.24), Curt Hennig (0.2), Randy Savage (0.19), Brock Lesnar (0.12)
Flat influences were: John Morrison (0.05), Finlay (0), Owen Hart (-0.01), Tajiri (-0.01), Alberto Del Rio (-0.03)
Negative influences were: Shane McMahon (-0.07), Scott Hall (-0.07), Kofi Kingston (-0.08), Evan Bourne (-0.14), Billy Kidman (-0.15)
More negative were: Bradshaw (-0.21), Batista (-0.22), Hulk Hogan (-0.26), Umaga (-0.27), Big Show (-0.27), Sean Waltman (-0.27), MVP (-0.3), Vader (-0.3), Miz (-0.36), Jeff Jarrett (-0.37), 
Extremely negative: Booker T (-0.48), Ken Shamrock (-0.49), Kane (-0.52)
 
Again, Warrior's results were surprising, but I think they're tied to the low feud count among rated matches (suggesting the need to possibly normalize for total feuds / rated feuds or something to that effect.)

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Content listing for the upcoming Triple H "Thy Kingdom Come" DVD out Sept 24:

 

Disc 1Documentary 

The Game 

Growing Up 

WCW 

Hunter Hearst Helmsley 

Ninth Wonder of the World 

Mick Foley 

D-Generation X 

Leader 

DX vs. The Nation 

Champion 

McMahon-Helmsley 

The Rock 

Injury 

Evolution 

DX Returns 

Torn and Rebuilt 

Randy Orton 

Actor 

The Undertaker 

Chief Operating Officer 

A Unique BreedDisc 2Jean-Paul Levesque vs. Ricky SteamboatWCW Saturday Night – 3rd September, 1994Hunter Hearst Helmsley vs. Dude LoveOne Night Only – 27th September 1997Iron Man Match for the WWE ChampionshipThe Rock vs. Triple HJudgment Day – 21st May, 2000No Disqualification MatchTriple H vs. Kurt AngleUnforgiven – 24th September, 2000Disc 3All Championships on the LineTriple H & Stone Cold vs. The Undertaker & KaneBacklash – 29th April, 2001World Heavyweight ChampionshipTriple H vs. Rob Van DamRAW – 30th June, 2003Last Man Standing Match for the World Heavyweight ChampionshipShawn Michaels vs. Triple HRoyal Rumble – 25th January, 2004Road to WrestleMania Tournament MatchRic Flair vs. Triple HRAW – 6th February, 2006Return from InjuryTriple H vs. King BookerSummerSlam – 26th August, 2007Last Man Standing Match for the WWE ChampionshipTriple H vs. Randy OrtonNo Mercy – 7th October, 2007Non-Title MatchJeff Hardy vs. Triple HSmackDown – 21st November, 2008Triple H vs. Chris JerichoRAW – 30th November, 2009Blu-ray ExclusivesNo Disqualification / Career on the LineTriple H vs. Brock LesnarWrestleMania 29 – 7th April, 2013StoriesMotivation in High SchoolHard Way InPaul ScreamResumeSherriDiamond CutterHunter Hearst Helmsley – The NameWild ‘n Crazy GuysEvolution’s Fifth Member ??Shawn’s ComebackWrestleMania 26Two Movies at OnceCommemorating the EndWorst Gas on the PlanetCandy BarPraising the BossBehind the ScenesPhoto ShootBehind the Scenes – WrestleMania 29 WeekendTaping WristsThe Levesque GameKing of Signs

 

They still haven't put that Triple H/Flair cage match from Taboo Tuesday on dvd, have they? That one should be on this set.

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They still haven't put that Triple H/Flair cage match from Taboo Tuesday on dvd, have they? That one should be on this set.

 Wasn't it on both Nature Boy Ric Flair: The Definitive Collection disc 3 and WWE: The History of the Intercontinental Championship (2008) ?
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That's crazy that Matt made significant decreases. He was the best TV wrestler for like a year and a half.

 

That also surprised me.

 

Here's what I saw:

 

Matt had 17 singles matches and averaged 3.38 stars: 3 against Edge, 2 against Ken Kennedy, 2 against Rey Mysterio, 2 against Jeff Hardy, 2 against Kidman, 2 against Finlay, and once apiece against Morrison, Bourne, Shelton and Helms. The average listed in () is all their singles match average not including matches against the opponent in the same line.

* Edge (3.71) vs Matt Hardy (3.3) = 3.75 average; Edge improved +0.04 while Matt improved +0.45
* Ken Kennedy (3.4) vs Matt Hardy (3.4) = 3.25 average; Kennedy went down -0.15 while Matt dipped -0.15
* Matt Hardy (3.35) vs Rey Mysterio (3.52) = 3.63 average; Matt improved +0.28 while Rey went up +0.10
* Jeff Hardy (3.62) vs Matt Hardy (3.4) = 3.25 average; Jeff went down -0.37 and Matt went down -0.15
* Billy Kidman (3.25) vs Matt Hardy (3.42) = 3.13 average; Kidman went down -0.13 and Matt went down -0.29
* Finlay (3.58) vs Matt Hardy (3.4) = 3.25 average; Finlay went down -0.33 and Matt went down -0.15
* John Morrison (3.57) vs Matt Hardy (3.39) = 3.25 average; Morrison went down -0.32 and Matt went down -0.14
* Evan Bourne (3.42) vs Matt Hardy (3.38) = 3.5 average; Bourne went up +0.08 and Matt went up +0.13
* Matt Hardy (3.39) vs Shelton Benjamin (3.66) = 3.25 average;  Matt went down -0.14 and Shelton went down -0.41
* Hurricane Helms (3.08) vs Matt Hardy (3.39) = 3.25 average; Helms went up +.17 while Matt went down -0.14
 
My unweighted methodology was just adding the points of the change of the opponent = -1.31 / 10 feuds = -0.13 star rating decrease per feud when Matt Hardy was matched with an opponent. (Weighting by matches is -0.12.)
 
This is certainly far from a perfect dataset - it's one person's ratings and it implies that Dave is rating the same number of matches for all people.  In fact, wasn't Dave having Bryan do Smackdown! reviews for awhile?
Last time I looked, I noticed the number of non-PPV televised matches he rated had decreased dramtically post-2000.  So, when Matt was getting great, it's strongly possible that Dave just didn't even rate those matches.
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Cactus, yes I think you could make a point for the Orton or HHH as his best match. The HIAC match is what he is remembered for but as a match it is just, a stunt show, basically. It shows what Foley would put his body through but as a match those other three are ways better imho. 

 

Nash I think his best match is Bret but I haven't watched the Shawn match in ages as well as the tag with Waltman and Hall.

 

Jannetty I think his best opponents were Somers and Rose as a tag team. 

 

Though no arguing HBK is Takers best. I think I prefer their HIAC over the Mania matches though the Mania matches are right there with the Cell match. 

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Content listing for the upcoming Triple H "Thy Kingdom Come" DVD out Sept 24:

 

Disc 1Documentary 

The Game 

Growing Up 

WCW 

Hunter Hearst Helmsley 

Ninth Wonder of the World 

Mick Foley 

D-Generation X 

Leader 

DX vs. The Nation 

Champion 

McMahon-Helmsley 

The Rock 

Injury 

Evolution 

DX Returns 

Torn and Rebuilt 

Randy Orton 

Actor 

The Undertaker 

Chief Operating Officer 

A Unique BreedDisc 2Jean-Paul Levesque vs. Ricky SteamboatWCW Saturday Night – 3rd September, 1994Hunter Hearst Helmsley vs. Dude LoveOne Night Only – 27th September 1997Iron Man Match for the WWE ChampionshipThe Rock vs. Triple HJudgment Day – 21st May, 2000No Disqualification MatchTriple H vs. Kurt AngleUnforgiven – 24th September, 2000Disc 3All Championships on the LineTriple H & Stone Cold vs. The Undertaker & KaneBacklash – 29th April, 2001World Heavyweight ChampionshipTriple H vs. Rob Van DamRAW – 30th June, 2003Last Man Standing Match for the World Heavyweight ChampionshipShawn Michaels vs. Triple HRoyal Rumble – 25th January, 2004Road to WrestleMania Tournament MatchRic Flair vs. Triple HRAW – 6th February, 2006Return from InjuryTriple H vs. King BookerSummerSlam – 26th August, 2007Last Man Standing Match for the WWE ChampionshipTriple H vs. Randy OrtonNo Mercy – 7th October, 2007Non-Title MatchJeff Hardy vs. Triple HSmackDown – 21st November, 2008Triple H vs. Chris JerichoRAW – 30th November, 2009Blu-ray ExclusivesNo Disqualification / Career on the LineTriple H vs. Brock LesnarWrestleMania 29 – 7th April, 2013StoriesMotivation in High SchoolHard Way InPaul ScreamResumeSherriDiamond CutterHunter Hearst Helmsley – The NameWild ‘n Crazy GuysEvolution’s Fifth Member ??Shawn’s ComebackWrestleMania 26Two Movies at OnceCommemorating the EndWorst Gas on the PlanetCandy BarPraising the BossBehind the Scenes – Photo ShootBehind the Scenes – WrestleMania 29 WeekendTaping WristsThe Levesque GameKing of Signs

I'll get it just for that Ironman Match with the Rock.  And because I'll buy anything they put on blu-ray.

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I would say that Kurt Angle vs Shawn at WrestleMania is Kurt's best match. 

 

I liked that match, but I think Angle's best match is that Royal Rumble match against Benoit.  Probably will get a ton of heat for saying this, but I liked the Lockdown cage match against Joe more too.  Actually, all three of the original Joe matches are crimminally underrated. 

 

I definitely give Cena the nod for Lashley, Khali, and Umaga.  Punk probably.  I could see an argument for Lesnar's, although for me that's Eddy (and I can see a case for the Taker HIAC as well.)

 

.....

 

Vader steals Sting from Flair. 

 

Where does Rock vs Brock from Summerslam rate as far as either man's best match? 

 

I agree that Vader gave Sting better matches than Flair... but where does Muta rank agaisnt Sting?  What is considered Vader's best match?  Is it the dome match against Hansen?  I personally rate Vader vs Kobashi better. 

 

 

Joe vs Punk 2 is better than Cena vs Punk.

 

Which guys can you argue Joe gave their best match?  Punk?  Aries?  Kobashi? (lol, j/k) Angle? 

 

 

 

 

 

I've decided that Mookieghana is the fn Bill James of wrestling. 

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I have avoided some of the later Davey matches that people in other spots have loved so I can't speak to some of his career, but I remember liking the Joe v. Davey match that took place in Dayton. Maybe Joe has the best ever Davey match.

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