WWE NETWORK GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD

[PetrolCB]

Hmm, strange. There was a point last year, where if anyone was watching WWEN, they got booted off if someone signed on. Maybe it was a PlayStation thing.

[Vincey Greene]

Watching the Sting doc they recently put up. Pretty interesting; the word on Sting has always been "Great human, solid worker, cares almost zero about wrestling beyond making money". 

 

 

Meanwhile, he has an entire barn full of merch and is very clearly STILL frustrated to this day with the booking at Starrcade '97. And also seems to be a legit good guy.
 

[Mistah Na1m4rk]

If he wasn't frustrated by the disaster of Starcade '97 he wouldn't be human.  That was the very exact point where WCW started the long, slow circling of the drain, compliment of (of course) Hulk Hogan.

[Brysynner]

Starrcade '97 when WCW had the easiest, most profitable angle ever and the easiest payoff to book. Sting beats Hogan all across the arena, Hulk gets like one offensive move in, Hulks up at some point and gets his ass kicked some more.

The level of incompetence in the booking of Starrcade '97 was amazing because to fuck it up as bad as they did, they had to be trying to see what the worst thing they could do was. It's right up there with the finish to Booker/Hunter at Mania 19 in how not to book a world title match where the entire booking up to the match has been the heel dominating the babyface in a way that makes you excited to see the babyface beat the hell out of the heel champion

[Technico Support]

I was at that show (Starrcade) and I remember leaving the arena and everybody just felt deflated.  Like you said, anything outside of Sting getting absolute revenge and decisively destroying Hogan would have been an failure and, because of power plays and political bullshit, that's what we got.  WCW everybody.

[Jiji]

Well, Hulk did have creative control. Legally, they were pretty well over a barrel and Hulk was so concerned about how he was perceived by everybody going from the Kevin Sullivan podcasts a few years back. Would WCW have been better off never having Hulk at all? Savage as the third man? 

[Mistah Na1m4rk]

I hadn't realized under recently that referee Nick Patrick attributes his non-fast 3-count specifically to Hogan's direction.  From a recent Observer:

 

Quote

"Eric Bischoff, having just signed Bret Hart, and with the fallout of the 1997 Survivor Series being the biggest story, by far, in wrestling, wanted to take advantage of it. The idea was that referee Nick Patrick would give a fast count as Hogan pinned Sting, Hart would come out and say he couldn’t stand by and see Sting get screwed, and lead to the match restarting, where Sting would then make a big comeback and get the win.

The problem is that Patrick did a normal count. For years Patrick claimed he thought he was doing a fast count, but that had no credibility. Finally Patrick said that Hogan asked him not to do a fast count, and that even though Bischoff told him the opposite, that he felt Hogan had more power than Bischoff so he did what Hogan told him to do."

 

[NikoBaltimore]

I wonder if WCW could have survived without Hogan.  When he first came in it was swell but the crowd tired of him.  He added a ton to nWo so for a third member he was the right choice.  But by giving him that creative control it really hurt WCW big-time.  I think they'd have been better off never signing him, but he was only a part of the problem.  They were making boneheaded decisions as it was but he certainly didn't help matters.

[Mistah Na1m4rk]

Well I guess it depends on what they would do instead of Hogan.  Remember, Hogan can with all sorts of baggage beyond his obnoxious ego - when you get Hogan, you suddenly have to bloat up your roster with Ed Leslie (or should I say "Starcade '94 main-eventer Ed Leslie"?), Hacksaw Duggan, Earthquake, the Nasty Boys, and Honky Tonk Man.  Hell, Hulk Hogan even brought in Mr. T!  

That's a lot of match slots to fill up with guys who range from "OK" to "yikes".  With Hogan calling the shots that means these guys got favorable booking, but in retrospect would anybody in the world prefer that group of talent to Vader, Steve Austin, Cactus Jack, and Brian Pillman?  

Even accepting the talent transfusion, the real issue has always been Hogan's selfish nature.  There's no way around that in 1994, no amount of booing could dissuade him from the notion that the fans were wrong and he was still the most important, prescient man in the business.  Hogan could have been used effectively, that was proven rather nicely by the NWO angle, but once again Hogan's selfish egoism destroyed everything it touched.  Starcade 1994 to Starcade 1997 is a really nice set of bookends to evaluate Hogan's pernicious influence on WCW.

[Jiji]

His creative control was so powerful that it influenced booking when he was away filming movies and shows (monster heels couldn't drop falls as they'd lose their heat for when he ultimately triumphs) and lower midcard wrestler gimmicks (Scott Norton's power and arm wrestling background wasn't to be built up too much). He was so insecure it was ridiculous. 

So even when you think you're safe from his creative control, it comes back to bite you. 

[Vincey Greene]

I think if they didn't get Hogan but still got Savage they would have been perfectly fine. Maybe somebody else would come along and take excessive advantage of Turner/Bischoff but I don't think it would have been Mach, who was crazy but would play ball and do business. I think he would have been fine as the 3rd man and I think the effect on their heat would be negligible - while Hulk history writes it otherwise, there was never a single moment that he was more over than Nash in WCW. It never happened.

[Josh Mann]

Hogan never going to WCW in 1994 basically rewrites about 75% of subsequent events. 

[Brian Fowler]

If ever a ppv main event could have gotten away with being a four minute squash, it was Sting/Hogan.

[clintthecrippler]

Sting/Hogan literally should have just been the same exact formula as Hogan/Iron Shiek. Hogan sneak attacks Sting, Sting bounces back with immediate fury, Hogan gets low blow, does a back rake, does a nervehold for a minute, then Sting powers out, punch, punch, whip into the corner, stinger splash, Hogan stumbles out of the corner, Sting hits Scorpion Death Drop, Sting locks on the Scorpion Leglock, Hogan submits...time of the fall: five minutes, and forty seconds.

[Josh Mann]

The problem isn't that Hogan got offense, it's that it was clean. I feel like rewatching this to confirm my thinking, but I think THAT was the biggest problem, count issue notwithstanding.

[NikoBaltimore]

The count was the punctuation mark on the fact that Hogan dominated Sting leading up to that.  Sting looked a chump before the pinfall, and the aftermath didn't help matters.

[Technico Support]

I'm of the opinion the NWO wouldn't have been nearly as big or mainstream if Hogan hadn't been there.  But at the end of the day, it bankrupted the company, so was it worth it?

I always laugh when Hogan or Bischoff call attention to the fact that Sting didn't show up in shape that night as if that was some sort of contributing factor to how flat and awful the whole thing was.  Like they would have changed their shit booking if Sting showed up looking like Luger.

[Zakk_Sabbath]

I had always thought that Hogan telling Nick Patrick to count normally was just a rumor or perhaps something just simply implied by Hogan. I can think of at least 100 other ways Bret couldve been involved in that match other than what actually happened.

[BurningBeard]

I can't help but think this is something wrestling fans will still be debating in 50 years it was that staggeringly stupid.

While I think Hogan in WCW was beyond detrimental apart from the intial nWo run (96-98ish) and even that had to be polished somewhat (see Kevin Nash talking about how Hogan's initial nWo promos were pure 80s Memphis heel shtick that had to be salvaged in editing) what can't be argued that his marquee power is what led to Turner investing big in WCW and by extension that contributed to the boom period.

[cwoy2j]

21 hours ago, NickMD said:

The count was the punctuation mark on the fact that Hogan dominated Sting leading up to that.  Sting looked a chump before the pinfall, and the aftermath didn't help matters.

That was the biggest problem to me. Hogan beat the shit out of him, hit the big boot and legdropped him. It's not like Sting was dominating Hogan and he (Hogan) caught him with a quick roll-up or something like that.

[ivpvideos]

They had all the WCW wrestlers sitting ringside. Should have had NWO run out, WCW guys hop the guardrail to stop them, Sting beats Hogan clean. THEN Bret comes out and they do a face to face to build to who the REAL world champ is.

next night you do the Wolfpack split and have NWO vs NWO as the understory to Bret vs Sting

[Mistah Na1m4rk]

How does Hogan come out ahead in that scenario?  That isn't going to make the Hulkster look strong, brother.

[Jiji]

That needs to be the first question asked when fantasy booking WCW.

[Zakk_Sabbath]

SuperBrawl 8 shoudlve been Bret v Sting for "undisputed" champion status and Hogan vs Savage right below them, with the Outsiders involved either through breaking away and forming a faction with Syxx (thus preventng him from jumping to the WWF a month later) or  beginning the NWO Wolfpac transition a few months early. The only wrench in that plan is that the Scott Steiner heel turn would either have to be delayed or executed differently.

[DTTW]

Probably late to the party here, but Brutus on the E&C show was seriously the best thing he's ever done and I instantly liked him for the first time in decades.