The Marvel Things That Aren't "Marvel" Things

[Dog]

tl;dr Reed Richards > Star Lord, Sue Storm > Gamora, Johnny Storm > Rocket Raccoon, Thing > Drax

 

Execution counts.

[BrianS81177]

Miles Teller has at least 1 more Divergent film left. He'll be fine

[APO]

The central conflict of Secret Wars is obviously Doom vs. Reed Richards (and Sue Storm has a big role too). Old Man Logan is getting a solo book and is joining the X-Men. X-23 is getting a solos book called "All-New All-Different Wolvberine". There are 5 X-Men flavored books in the All-New All-Different Marvel lineup, plus a Deadpool solo and a Deadpool & Spider-Man team-up book. Johnny Storm is getting a big role in the new Inhumans book. Ben Grimm is getting a big role in the new Guardians book.

They may not be doing stuff you like with the characters, but they aren't going away or getting buried.

On the other hand, Upper Deck was not allowed to use Doom in the Marvel Legendary: Secret Wars expansion, which sucks.

Yes, there will be 5 ongoing X-Books after Secret Wars, 6 counting Deadpool.

Just for shits and giggles I looked up the solicitations for the last four years and counted how many X-Books there were on the stands each year. I've used the month of August for each year.

August 2014: 13 ongoing, 3 minis

August 2013: 16 ongoing, 1 mini

August 2012: 14 ongoing, 4 minis

August 2011: 13 ongoing, 8 minis

Hit spoiler for details:

2014: All-New X-Factor, All-New X-Men, Amazing X-Men, Cyclops, Deadpool, Magneto, Nightcrawler, Storm, Uncanny X-Men, Wolverine, Wolverine & the X-Men, X-Force, X-Men / Minis: Deadpool: Dracula's Gauntlet, Deadpool vs. X-Force, All-New Doop

2013: A+X, All-New X-Men, Astonishing X-Men, Cable & X-Force, Deadpool, Gambit, Savage Wolverine, Ultimate Comics X-Men, Uncanny X-Force, Uncanny X-Men, Wolverine, Wolverine & The X-Men, Wolverine MAX, X-Factor, X-Men, X-Men: Legacy, Mini: Deadpool kills Deadpool

2012: Age of Apocalypse, Astonishing X-Men. Deadpool, Gambit, New Mutants, Ultimate Comics X-Men, Uncanny X-Force, Uncanny X-Men. Wolverine, Wolverine & the X-Men, X-Factor, X-Men, X-Men Legacy, X-Treme X-Men, Minis: Avengers vs. X-Men, Avx: Vs, Deadpool kills the Marvel Universe, First X-Men

2011: Astonishing X-Men, Daken: Dark Wolverine, Deadpool, Generation Hope, New Mutants, Uncanny X-Force, Uncanny X-Men, Wolverine, Wolverine: The Best there is, X-23, X-Factor, X-Men, X-Men Legacy, Minis: Alpha Flight, Deadpool MAX, Fear Itself: Deadpool, Fear Itself: Uncanny X-Force, Fear Itself: Wolverine, Marvel Universe vs. Wolverine, Wolverine & Black Cat: Claws, X-Men: Schism

You still want to claim the X-Men are not getting buried in the comic books?

Alternatively, it could be that Marvel finally figured out thst the constant churn of failed secondary X-books, maybe one in ten of which would reach #25, was doing more harm than good and they should slow the fuck down.

Kinda funny how they haven't realized this with the MCU side of the line-up...

[Big Fresh]

 

The central conflict of Secret Wars is obviously Doom vs. Reed Richards (and Sue Storm has a big role too). Old Man Logan is getting a solo book and is joining the X-Men. X-23 is getting a solos book called "All-New All-Different Wolvberine". There are 5 X-Men flavored books in the All-New All-Different Marvel lineup, plus a Deadpool solo and a Deadpool & Spider-Man team-up book. Johnny Storm is getting a big role in the new Inhumans book. Ben Grimm is getting a big role in the new Guardians book.

 

They may not be doing stuff you like with the characters, but they aren't going away or getting buried.

 

On the other hand, Upper Deck was not allowed to use Doom in the Marvel Legendary: Secret Wars expansion, which sucks.

 

Yes, there will be 5 ongoing X-Books after Secret Wars, 6 counting Deadpool.

Just for shits and giggles I looked up the solicitations for the last four years and counted how many X-Books there were on the stands each year. I've used the month of August for each year.

 

August 2014: 13 ongoing, 3 minis

August 2013: 16 ongoing, 1 mini

August 2012: 14 ongoing, 4 minis

August 2011: 13 ongoing, 8 minis

 

Hit spoiler for details:

2014: All-New X-Factor, All-New X-Men, Amazing X-Men, Cyclops, Deadpool, Magneto, Nightcrawler, Storm, Uncanny X-Men, Wolverine, Wolverine & the X-Men, X-Force, X-Men / Minis: Deadpool: Dracula's Gauntlet, Deadpool vs. X-Force, All-New Doop

 

2013: A+X, All-New X-Men, Astonishing X-Men, Cable & X-Force, Deadpool, Gambit, Savage Wolverine, Ultimate Comics X-Men, Uncanny X-Force, Uncanny X-Men, Wolverine, Wolverine & The X-Men, Wolverine MAX, X-Factor, X-Men, X-Men: Legacy, Mini: Deadpool kills Deadpool

 

2012: Age of Apocalypse, Astonishing X-Men. Deadpool, Gambit, New Mutants, Ultimate Comics X-Men, Uncanny X-Force, Uncanny X-Men. Wolverine, Wolverine & the X-Men, X-Factor, X-Men, X-Men Legacy, X-Treme X-Men, Minis: Avengers vs. X-Men, Avx: Vs, Deadpool kills the Marvel Universe, First X-Men

 

2011: Astonishing X-Men, Daken: Dark Wolverine, Deadpool, Generation Hope, New Mutants, Uncanny X-Force, Uncanny X-Men, Wolverine, Wolverine: The Best there is, X-23, X-Factor, X-Men, X-Men Legacy, Minis: Alpha Flight, Deadpool MAX, Fear Itself: Deadpool, Fear Itself: Uncanny X-Force, Fear Itself: Wolverine, Marvel Universe vs. Wolverine, Wolverine & Black Cat: Claws, X-Men: Schism

 

You still want to claim the X-Men are not getting buried in the comic books?

 

 

That was fucking WAYYYYYY too mnay books. This is better. Calm down.

 

[The Z]

 

Alternatively, it could be that Marvel finally figured out thst the constant churn of failed secondary X-books, maybe one in ten of which would reach #25, was doing more harm than good and they should slow the fuck down.

 

I've been reading comic books for 20 years and I'm pretty sure that's the smallest amount of X-books there have ever been during that time. Do you really think they just realized that now?

Besides, I'm willing to bet the overall amount of books Marvel will publish after Secret Wars will still be roughly the same and many of the books will be lucky to sell as well as the X-books.

 

 

That was fucking WAYYYYYY too mnay books. This is better. Calm down.

 

You can be of the opinion that those were too many X-Books in the first place. That's a valid opinion. An opinion I don't share since I was reading almost all of them.

But all of that is beside the point. The thing I'm trying to show here is that Marvel is deliberately trying to downplay both the X-Men and the Fantastic Four in the comic books and there's mountains of evidence for it.

[Big Fresh]

Ok. I'm sorry you're only getting 6 books. That's just awful.

[Matt D]

A good comic is a good comic. It doesn't matter if it's an X book or an A book or whatever. 

[The Z]

Ok, since there are still some who believe Fantastic Four was cancelled because of sales, I have once again taken the sales chart from April 2015, put it into Excel and removed all the non-Marvel titles, so we have a clear ranking of only the Marvel titles. Are you willing to guess where Fantastic Four ended up?

It ranked 25th out of 103 books. 4 of those books that sold better were Star Wars books, so if you remove those it ranked 21st.

 

You can take a look how many books are still around that sold worse than Fantastic Four. Full list is in the spoilers.

 

Rank Comic-book Title Est. sales
1 Star Wars 203,817
2 Darth Vader 123,394
3 Kanan Last Padawan 108,167
4 Princess Leia 102,434
5 Spider-Gwen 102,234
6 Amazing Spider-Man 99,964
7 Deadpool 96,897
8 Thor 71,372
9 Amazing Spider-Man 68,907
10 Uncanny Inhumans 67,017
11 Avengers 62,939
12 Avengers Ultron Forever 60,351
13 Silk 58,755
14 Guardians of the Galaxy And X-Men Black Vortex Omega 55,955
15 New Avengers 55,437
16 Guardians of Galaxy 54,124
17 All New X-Men 50,77
18 Uncanny Avengers 50,595
19 Uncanny X-Men 49,278
20 Avengers 47,2
21 Howard The Duck 43,572
22 All New Hawkeye 42,73
23 New Avengers Ultron Forever 42,349
24 Legendary Star Lord 41,325
25 Fantastic Four 39,389
26 All New Captain America 38,199
27 Rocket Raccoon 35,311
28 Superior Iron Man 34,44
29 Darth Vader 34,298
30 Return of Living Deadpool 34,22
31 Daredevil 32,541
32 Ms Marvel 32,058
33 Spider-Woman 32,041
34 Superior Iron Man 32,006
35 Spider-Man 2099 31,665
36 Ant-Man 31,637
37 Captain Marvel 30,56
38 Miles Morales Ultimate Spider-Man 29,318
39 Avengers Operation Hydra 29,302
40 Guardians Team-Up 28,877
41 Hulk 28,494
42 X-Men 27,64
43 Inhuman Special 27,234
44 Shield 26,93
45 Amazing X-Men 26,859
46 Guardians of Galaxy Best Story Ever 26,852
47 Shield 26,614
48 Cyclops 26,516
49 True Believers Civil War 26,263
50 Inhuman 26,164
51 Hulk 26,118
52 Wolverines 25,79
53 Wolverines 25,434
54 Wolverines 25,239
55 Wolverines 25,173
56 Spider-Gwen 24,501
57 Angela Asgards Assassin 23,551
58 Spider-Man And X-Men 22,929
59 Spider-Man And X-Men 22,843
60 Moon Knight 22,303
61 Magneto 22,072
62 Avengers Millennium 21,922
63 True Believers Infinity Gauntlet 21,77
64 Unbeatable Squirrel Girl 20,987
65 Silver Surfer 20,776
66 Avengers World 20,491
67 Avengers Millennium 20,444
68 Avengers World 20,193
69 Punisher 19,762
70 Avengers Millennium 19,553
71 Avengers Millennium 19,547
72 Black Widow 18,851
73 Nova 18,635
74 Captain America And Mighty Avengers 18,362
75 Nova 18,228
76 True Believers Old Man Logan 18,128
77 True Believers Age of Ultron 17,627
78 True Believers Marvel Zombies 17,454
79 Loki Agent of Asgard 17,212
80 True Believers Planet Hulk 16,794
81 Guardians 3000 16,532
82 Max Ride First Flight 16,317
83 True Believers Age of Apocalypse 16,135
84 Secret Avengers 15,925
85 True Believers Miles Morales 15,69
86 Iron Fist Living Weapon 15,432
87 True Believers House of M 14,845
88 Bucky Barnes Winter Soldier 14,779
89 True Believers Armor Wars 13,411
90 Storm 13,398
91 Star Wars 12,756
92 Operation Sin 11,949
93 Darth Vader 11,837
94 Darth Vader 11,637
95 Big Thunder Mountain Railroad 11,231
96 Princess Leia 10,416
97 Star Wars 10,077
98 Dark Tower Drawing Three House Cards 10,019
99 Deathlok 9,871
100 Max Ride First Flight 8,638
101 George Romeros Empire of Dead Act Three 8,623
102 Marvel Universe Guardians of Galaxy 8,406
103 Powers Firsts 6,852

[Brysynner]

April 2015 has the benefit of it being issue #645 which was the last issue. Also the announcement came in October of 2014 so readship jumped to buy the last few F4 issues.

 

Here's a look at F4 just up to the announcement

09/13 Fantastic Four v5 #12 - 31,426 ( -3.8%)10/13 Fantastic Four v5 #13 - 31,561 ( +0.4%)11/13 Fantastic Four v5 #14 - 28,679 ( -9.1%)12/13 Fantastic Four v5 #15 - 27,610 ( -3.7%)01/14 Fantastic Four v5 #16 - 28,045 (  1.6%)02/14 Fantastic Four v6 #1  - 65,775 (134.5%)03/14 Fantastic Four v6 #2  - 37,569 (-42.9%)04/14 Fantastic Four v6 #3  - 34,930 ( -7.0%)05/14 Fantastic Four v6 #4  - 33,263 ( -4.8%)05/14 Fantastic Four v6 #5  - 33,336 (  0.2%)06/14 Fantastic Four v6 #6  - 33,177 ( -0.5%) O.S.07/14 Fantastic Four v6 #7  - 33,687 (  1.5%) O.S.08/14 Fantastic Four v6 #8  - 30,674 ( -8.9%) O.S.08/14 Fantastic Four v6 #9  - 28,827 ( -6.0%)09/14 Fantastic Four v6 #10 - 28,118 ( -2.5%)

The comic was trending down and most of the comics below that number in September have mostly been cancelled as far as I can tell.

 

http://www.comicsbeat.com/marvel-month-to-month-sales-september-2014-theres-life-in-that-there-death/ - where I got my data from

[Bustronaut]

28,118 still puts it above all but 4 of the 18(!) X-Men related books on the list.

[Brysynner]

And weren't most of those 18 cancelled and/or restructured?

[Matt D]

The Fantastic Four thing is real. I do think editorial is trying to protect them as well as possible. It's also stretched out of proportion when it comes to everything but licensing.

 

Yes, there'll be no Fantastic Four book for a while. Yes, it probably takes a good reason to use them, but Bendis gets to uses Ben in Guardians because he really, really wanted to use him. He has that much stroke. Johnny is going to be in Inhumans to help give them some rub. At the same time, however, the big crossover this summer, probably the hugest that Marvel's done since Civil War, is ALL about Doom, and not just Doom but the Reed/Doom relationship. People can't just ignore that. It's the most Doom-est thing ever. Doom is God. Literally. As in, when people would say "god" in Marvel comics during Secret Wars, they say Doom instead. I'm not kidding. This is a thing. It's all over the line. I think that every single comic that Marvel's published that's not Star Wars over the last few months has had mentions of Doom, not just in the recap page but in the comic itself. In every genre, featuring every character.

 

You get pages like this:

 

 

which is in your face, but also more subtle things like this:

 

 

Nightcrawler. Kurt Wagner. Religious as part of his character. In a book which is very much tied to its own stuff in Inferno, talking about how he is a Child of Doom as opposed to being a Child of God. Just as matter of fact. 

 

So, I mean, come on, there's smoke, there's fire, but there's also a limit.

[The Unholy Dragon]

Mostly what they're trying to do is kill the licenses. The FF are being shuffled around into Marvel controlled books. The X titles are reduced, but half the Avengers titles could have been X books around the premise. Hell, one is about Sunspot and Cannonball while the other is a mutant-human PR team. And the first run of Uncanny Avengers had sequels to AvX, Uncanny X-Force, and Onslaught.

They're trying to kill the brands by moving the meaningful parts elsewhere. Cake and eat it too. But I expect a lot of that comes from the reduction orders coming down from on high and no one terribly liking them.

[Brysynner]

They're definitely trying to kill the licenses drawing power plus

 

Isn't the rumor that the end of the Secret Wars will feature the deaths of Reed and Sue since they are nowhere to be found post-Secret Wars

[Matt D]

It's important to make a distinction about "they," I think. People are too quick to toss blame at the creators and even editorial when it's corporate that's the issue, and pretty much one asshole in corporate.

[Niners Fan in CT]

An important thing to note is that even after the success of the movies, nobody gives a shit about Guardians of the Galaxy comics (I thought the art was cool but Bendis was awful) and nobody gives a shit about the solo Avengers books (Cap, Iron Man, Hulk, Black Widow). 

 

The readers and the moviegoers are two different things.  The readers are the hardest of the diehards.  They want to read X-books. So give them X-Books. Give ME X-books.

[Matt D]

I don't know.

 

Right now there's a Guardians franchise.

 

Pretty soon there'll be a Star-Lord comic, a Drax comic, a Gamora comic, a Rocket comic (which does gangbusters in sales, no?), and a Groot comic, right? That would have been an insane thought five years ago.

[nate]

Those franchises didn't have nearly as much baggage as the Four do; they're the world's oldest cohesive superhero group (I ain't counting the Justice Society)

Why, pray tell, would you not count the Justice Society??

ETA the second question mark.

[Niners Fan in CT]

I don't know it looks like the Rocket comic was selling about the same as Fantastic Four.

[Matt D]

Apparently it, like Ms. Marvel, does gangbusters digitally?

[Niners Fan in CT]

I don't know how that is configured into the sales charts so if it does and it's not counted then that's definitely something to be considered.

[Matt D]

I haven't researched too heavily, but from what's revealed, digital sales can be pretty freaking weird:

 

http://www.polygon.com/2015/4/14/8410771/digital-comics-female-characters

 

Apparently Silk #1 was #1 for March. (to be fair, in Feb it was 11 in the Diamond chart, but it does show how different things can be).

[odessasteps]

My understanding is Ms Marvel is one of few big two books that sells better digitally than print.

[Dog]

An important thing to note is that even after the success of the movies, nobody gives a shit about Guardians of the Galaxy comics (I thought the art was cool but Bendis was awful) and nobody gives a shit about the solo Avengers books (Cap, Iron Man, Hulk, Black Widow).

 

The main Guardians book sells like gangbusters. #32 out of all comics in April (picking a non-Secret Wars month).

 

Although you're right that the movie didn't really affect its position. It's been around that spot since it debuted.

[Niners Fan in CT]

Well yeah, I'm comparing it's position on the sales chart to what the movie did at the box office.  There's an obvious overlap but the movie didn't make a bunch of people run out and buy the comic.  Compare that to Walking Dead and that comic sells twice as much as Guardians and it's all because of the TV show.