The Marvel Things That Aren't "Marvel" Things

[Big Fresh]

The central conflict of Secret Wars is obviously Doom vs. Reed Richards (and Sue Storm has a big role too). Old Man Logan is getting a solo book and is joining the X-Men. X-23 is getting a solos book called "All-New All-Different Wolvberine". There are 5 X-Men flavored books in the All-New All-Different Marvel lineup, plus a Deadpool solo and a Deadpool & Spider-Man team-up book. Johnny Storm is getting a big role in the new Inhumans book. Ben Grimm is getting a big role in the new Guardians book.

 

They may not be doing stuff you like with the characters, but they aren't going away or getting buried.

 

On the other hand, Upper Deck was not allowed to use Doom in the Marvel Legendary: Secret Wars expansion, which sucks.

[Cliff Hanger]

Deadpool is about to join the Avengers. All-New X-Men is getting a new #1 with a writer who's been slowly building a resume and fan support; any issues with the first volume not going anywhere are more that Bendis has no idea how to tell an ongoing superhero story with more than three characters (see also: basically everything he did on Avengers) but has enough fan and brass support that he can basically write his own ticket. Wolverine being dead doesn't really count until it's been 18 months.

[Jingus]

Someone needs to explain to me how Fantastic Four is too much a product of its times to connect with today's pop culture audience but Spider Man, Captain America, Superman, etc. are pop culture friendly.

 We are in an age of WONDERS, of Occulus Rift and commercial space travel and fracking and who knows what else pops up on our facebook feed everyday. 

 

How are four challengers of the unknown, held together through family and because they choose to find the fantastic in the world instead of lamenting the harsh reality that would pin them down and crush them not relevant in 2015?

Because the mainstream hasn't given a shit about the F4 in long years. Batman and Spider-man are kept alive by constant movies, movie reboots, TV shows (live action AND animated), and being featured in probably literally dozens of video games. The Fantastic Four? They've got two movies in the 00s that almost everyone found mediocre and boring, two cartoons that are long-forgotten by all but hardcore comics fans, one or two video games that even I can't remember any specifics about, and one direct-to-oblivion movie misfire which is one of the more infamous failures in all of film history. None of that builds up long-term popularity or respect for this franchise.

Let's face it, the Four themselves are dated in their classic portrayals. Reed Richards is an old fuddy-duddy professor with gray hair and a pipe. Susan is a Donna Reed lookalike with the world's lamest superpower. Johnny is a reboot of a golden-age hero and is mostly known for being an impulsive teenage idiot. And poor Thing is most famous as "that Hulk-like guy who always loses every fight to the real Hulk". You could've given these guys their own TV show back during the McCarthy Witch-Hunt era and none of the moral censors of that wretched time would've batted an eye (although maybe you shouldn't mention Grimm is Jewish). Not a single grit-covered issue of gritty modern comics that reimagine the characters as all eating grits with extra grit for breakfast has managed to change those facts with the casual mainstream audience. There's still seen by the general public as the unstable-molecule-tights-wearing equivalent to Leave It to Beaver.

And maybe worst of all, except for Ben they're all a literal blood-related nuclear family, which is seen as THE least cool thing you can possibly have Marvel superheroes be in today's world. All the most popular tales are mostly about people whose real families are dead or have turned evil or are otherwise not supporting our socially-isolated heroes. Adopted families, like the various other super-groups, are all the rage now. I'm not enough of a sociologist to analyze and unpack exactly what all that MEANS, but it's clearly the overall average truth about what our society is looking for in its modern superhero myths.

[Matt D]

I'm still going to run with execution.

[Bustronaut]

Only '90s Kids Will Remember THIS Fantastic Four cartoon!

 

The FF have had FIVE cartoons, effectively running the gamut of generations since they were first created. (They *just* missed the 80s on either side, but had two late 70s cartoons, and appeared in multiple other cartoons as guests) They also had FIVE video games (again, appearing as characters in other, non-FF solo games) 4 movies (of which the Corman fan-film still reigns supreme) and have been the focus of 42 different series over the course of 54 years, often supporting 4-5 titles at a time.

 

Just because YOU don't think they appeal to the mainstream, doesn't make it reality.

[odessasteps]

The 90s cartoon gave us action figures id never imagine ever being made: gorgon, triton, the wizard and of course fin fang foom.

[Jingus]

If they're so appealing, where are the financial numbers that would back this up? The fact that absolutely none of the multimedia attempts at franchising were big hits, does support my theory pretty solidly. If they appealed THAT much, they would have had some serious success by now on TV, or in the movies, or in video games, or somewhere besides the comic rack. Yet that's never happened:

=The movies all did disappointing-at-best business,

-the cartoons never lasted for more than a couple of seasons (at least one of which was savagely mocked in the comic itself for being terrible),

-and the team has appeared far more times in "Marvel throws a bunch of different characters into one game" properties as supporting characters than they've ever done as stars of their own gaming titles (typically so unimportant to the overall marketing that they rarely appear on the cover art).

Also, you're inflating numbers. Four cartoons (unless you're counting Fred and Barney Meet the Thing, which... you really shouldn't), four video games (two of which were unsuccessful tie-ins to the unsuccessful movies of last decade).

[J.H.]

The obvious thing to do if Marvel gets he rights is have the FF origin take place in the early 60s and have them being FANTASTIC through the 80s when they go "missing" and then the end of the Infinity Cinematic Cycle brings them back into the mainstream for Marvel Stage 6 (or whatever).

 

James

[Bustronaut]

The Thing is the best part of the FF, so you're damn right I'm counting it!

"THING RING, DO YOUR THING!"

[Jingus]

A young boy named Benjy with magic rings that lets him turns into the Thing? That's even worse than that awful TV version of The Crow where the guy was a normal human who transformed into a Crow when he got angry.

[Johnny Sorrow]

Those franchises didn't have nearly as much baggage as the Four do; they're the world's oldest cohesive superhero group (I ain't counting the Justice Society)

Justice League started before FF.

[Bustronaut]

The Crow TV show was a mixture of Manimal meet The Incredible Hulk? Talk about your high concepts!

[Brysynner]

If they're so appealing, where are the financial numbers that would back this up? The fact that absolutely none of the multimedia attempts at franchising were big hits, does support my theory pretty solidly. If they appealed THAT much, they would have had some serious success by now on TV, or in the movies, or in video games, or somewhere besides the comic rack. Yet that's never happened:

=The movies all did disappointing-at-best business,

-the cartoons never lasted for more than a couple of seasons (at least one of which was savagely mocked in the comic itself for being terrible),

-and the team has appeared far more times in "Marvel throws a bunch of different characters into one game" properties as supporting characters than they've ever done as stars of their own gaming titles (typically so unimportant to the overall marketing that they rarely appear on the cover art).

Also, you're inflating numbers. Four cartoons (unless you're counting Fred and Barney Meet the Thing, which... you really shouldn't), four video games (two of which were unsuccessful tie-ins to the unsuccessful movies of last decade).

 

Of course F4 doesn't have it's own comic and was cancelled due to no one buying F4 comics....so they don't do well their either

[Brysynner]

 

Still I'm of the unpopular opinion that F4 was better than GotG.

 

Whoa, what? how did that happen?

 

 

GotG = Kid's mother has cancer, she dies, he gets kidnapped, becomes a space pirate, green girl goes after space pirate, talking tree and raccoon see green girl notices she has large bounty. All four go to prison where they meet Greentista. Greentista takes everything literally. Whiny space pirate has an attachment to bad 80's music. Whiny space pirate decides to break out of prison with the help of green girl who tried to kill him, one word tree and smart mouth raccoon, and Greentista because why not. After a series of convoluted events, the Guardians break out of prison and try and make the sale on their own. Greentista decided he's gonna fuck with a guy who's purged worlds, fails, Purger of worlds has unstoppable weapon. Blue daughter wants to fuck over Thanos and Purger of Worlds. Guardians eventually convince all Guardians to trust each other, Whiny space pirate romantically attempts to sacrifice his life to save green girl floating in space, whiny space pirates fucks over dumb space pirates, convinces the Nova Corps to trust him even though he's a petty criminal and whiny space pirate, eventually with the help of the Guardians he counteracts the death stone from the Purger of Worlds and everyone gets pardoned for all their crimes...and whiny space pirate fucks over dumb space pirates again.

 

F4 = Reed and Ben form a childhood friendship, eventually build a teleporter. Reed's invention gets him noticed by Dr. Storm who has his hot blonde daughter with him. Hires Reed to work on teleporter for his company, Ben doesn't go because Ben never was into this science stuff. Victor Von Doom is brought back onto the team after he couldn't figure out what Reed eventually did. Johnny Storm is brought onto the team because he wants his car back. Johnny realizes he shouldn't have been so anti-sciencey while working with his sister, Reed and Doom. Government tries to fuck off the scientists, Doom, Reed, Johnny all get drunk and decide hey if the gov't gonna fuck us over, let's go anyway, we built it and know it works. Reed wants Ben to come because Ben's his best friend and he's drunk dialing. The foursome decide to go to this unnamed area, Doom, being his cocky, arrogant self, interacts with the planet in a way he shouldn't causes the planet to erupt. The return teleport is not working, so they get Sue to help them after she notices something's wrong. Sue's struggling to get everything to work as rocks fly themselves onto Ben, Johnny is set on fire, something happens to Reed and when the teleporter comes back it brings back whatever energy it had with it because none of the doors were ever sealed properly, thus giving Sue her powers too. Reed is trapped, doesn't know where he is or what's going on, goes to see Ben. Leaves Ben to figure out a way to fix this mess. While Reed's fixing his mess, the remaining three are being used as tools for the government with Ben being the first one to get field action. Now that Johnny is being tapped for field action, Dr. Storm realizes he needs Reed back to get the teleporter working again which will delay the government using Johnny. So Sue uses her super intellect to find Reed. Dr. Storm plan works and Johnny doesn't go into the field, scientists bring back the body of Doom who's hatred of the government and the world have been amplified by whatever was in the planet. Doom kills pretty much everyone in his way to get back to the teleporter where he can destroy this world and go back to "his" world. The F4 go to stop him. However they realize they have to work together in order to stop him, they eventually do, the Earth is saved minus a big section near Area 57. The F4 manipulate the government to give them what they want and to not be government tools again.

 

tl;dr Reed Richards > Star Lord, Sue Storm > Gamora, Johnny Storm > Rocket Raccoon, Thing > Drax

[The Z]

 

If they're so appealing, where are the financial numbers that would back this up? The fact that absolutely none of the multimedia attempts at franchising were big hits, does support my theory pretty solidly. If they appealed THAT much, they would have had some serious success by now on TV, or in the movies, or in video games, or somewhere besides the comic rack. Yet that's never happened:

=The movies all did disappointing-at-best business,

-the cartoons never lasted for more than a couple of seasons (at least one of which was savagely mocked in the comic itself for being terrible),

-and the team has appeared far more times in "Marvel throws a bunch of different characters into one game" properties as supporting characters than they've ever done as stars of their own gaming titles (typically so unimportant to the overall marketing that they rarely appear on the cover art).

Also, you're inflating numbers. Four cartoons (unless you're counting Fred and Barney Meet the Thing, which... you really shouldn't), four video games (two of which were unsuccessful tie-ins to the unsuccessful movies of last decade).

 

Of course F4 doesn't have it's own comic and was cancelled due to no one buying F4 comics....so they don't do well their either

 

 

Why do people keep repeating this?

I've already proven that it's not true here.

The comic was cancelled entirely out of spite and no other reason.

 

Edit: Just read this article.

[EVA]

I really don't think 30,000-odd readers is quite the vote of confidence for FF's relevance that you think it is. That barely qualifies as niche.

[Niners Fan in CT]

To Brysynner: I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.  True enough I have not seen the new F4 but for me Guardians of the Galaxy was a fun ride. Yes, the villain kind of sucked as they usually do in the MCU but it was a fun team in  a fun universe. I felt Marvel played it perfectly.  It really was Marvel presents Star Wars. 

 

Also, I have not yet read the new piece on Grantland but the subtitle was intriguing. Basically, Ultron was a big hit, Ant-Man they called a "modest" hit and F4 was a big failure so now it appears they are questioning the staying power of comic book films..  when in reality, they should be breaking this down by what is Marvel doing, what is DC doing, what is FOX doing, etc..  I don't think F4 failing has ANYTHING to do with this bubble everyone is expecting to burst.

 

Edit: To Eva..  30,000 is not great at all but when you consider most ongoing series are around the 50,000 range..  I'm not sure how to grade it anymore.  The only huge hits right now are Star Wars, Batman, Justice League, Spider-Man, Walking Dead and Avengers related stuff.

[EVA]

Comic books have definitely become kind of a niche in their own right, despite the comic movie takeover. Which is interesting.

But the bottom line is, if the Fantastic Four could be counted on to sell 100,000 or so copies every month like the Spider-Man or X-Men lines, THEY WOULDN'T BE CANCELLED. Period. Studio politics be damned, because they would represent too big of a slice of their publishing pie to lose.

As it is, the Fantastic Four are a niche of a niche.

[Bustronaut]

The comic was cancelled because it was torpedoed by poor management, whether intentional or not. They ran the same basic storyline two writers in a row, and people caught on quickly. All anyone seems to want to do with the FF is break them down so they can be proven to be the ultmate family, but doing that on an annual basis gets boring as hell.

[The Z]

The central conflict of Secret Wars is obviously Doom vs. Reed Richards (and Sue Storm has a big role too). Old Man Logan is getting a solo book and is joining the X-Men. X-23 is getting a solos book called "All-New All-Different Wolvberine". There are 5 X-Men flavored books in the All-New All-Different Marvel lineup, plus a Deadpool solo and a Deadpool & Spider-Man team-up book. Johnny Storm is getting a big role in the new Inhumans book. Ben Grimm is getting a big role in the new Guardians book.

 

They may not be doing stuff you like with the characters, but they aren't going away or getting buried.

 

On the other hand, Upper Deck was not allowed to use Doom in the Marvel Legendary: Secret Wars expansion, which sucks.

 

Yes, there will be 5 ongoing X-Books after Secret Wars, 6 counting Deadpool.

Just for shits and giggles I looked up the solicitations for the last four years and counted how many X-Books there were on the stands each year. I've used the month of August for each year.

 

August 2014: 13 ongoing, 3 minis

August 2013: 16 ongoing, 1 mini

August 2012: 14 ongoing, 4 minis

August 2011: 13 ongoing, 8 minis

 

Hit spoiler for details:

2014: All-New X-Factor, All-New X-Men, Amazing X-Men, Cyclops, Deadpool, Magneto, Nightcrawler, Storm, Uncanny X-Men, Wolverine, Wolverine & the X-Men, X-Force, X-Men / Minis: Deadpool: Dracula's Gauntlet, Deadpool vs. X-Force, All-New Doop

 

2013: A+X, All-New X-Men, Astonishing X-Men, Cable & X-Force, Deadpool, Gambit, Savage Wolverine, Ultimate Comics X-Men, Uncanny X-Force, Uncanny X-Men, Wolverine, Wolverine & The X-Men, Wolverine MAX, X-Factor, X-Men, X-Men: Legacy, Mini: Deadpool kills Deadpool

 

2012: Age of Apocalypse, Astonishing X-Men. Deadpool, Gambit, New Mutants, Ultimate Comics X-Men, Uncanny X-Force, Uncanny X-Men. Wolverine, Wolverine & the X-Men, X-Factor, X-Men, X-Men Legacy, X-Treme X-Men, Minis: Avengers vs. X-Men, Avx: Vs, Deadpool kills the Marvel Universe, First X-Men

 

2011: Astonishing X-Men, Daken: Dark Wolverine, Deadpool, Generation Hope, New Mutants, Uncanny X-Force, Uncanny X-Men, Wolverine, Wolverine: The Best there is, X-23, X-Factor, X-Men, X-Men Legacy, Minis: Alpha Flight, Deadpool MAX, Fear Itself: Deadpool, Fear Itself: Uncanny X-Force, Fear Itself: Wolverine, Marvel Universe vs. Wolverine, Wolverine & Black Cat: Claws, X-Men: Schism

 

You still want to claim the X-Men are not getting buried in the comic books?

[Bustronaut]

16 ongoing series? Jesus christ, no wonder I hate mutants.

[The Unholy Dragon]

Comic books have definitely become kind of a niche in their own right, despite the comic movie takeover. Which is interesting.

But the bottom line is, if the Fantastic Four could be counted on to sell 100,000 or so copies every month like the Spider-Man or X-Men lines, THEY WOULDN'T BE CANCELLED. Period. Studio politics be damned, because they would represent too big of a slice of their publishing pie to lose.

As it is, the Fantastic Four are a niche of a niche.

Spider-man and X-Men don't regularly sell 100k either outside crossovers and stunts. The only superhero comic that's sold 100k regularly in the last few years is Batman.

The highest selling X-Men title in March sold about 56k. Spider-man sold 92k but it's also doing much better than it trended before about 2-3 years ago due to a couple of successful stunts.

There are series that have lived between 20k and 30k for years, being considered reliable successes. Fantastic Four was still selling fine, nothing about its performance inspired the cancellation. Also they keep pretending it wasn't cancelled cancelled and is just pending a reboot like everything else around Secret Wars. If you believe the word, it'll be back after the film Blu Ray release period is done.

Where you're not entirely wrong is that if it were a better seller then it would be too costly to do this out of spite. Ala X-Men.

[Eivion]

The comic was cancelled because it was torpedoed by poor management, whether intentional or not. They ran the same basic storyline two writers in a row, and people caught on quickly. All anyone seems to want to do with the FF is break them down so they can be proven to be the ultmate family, but doing that on an annual basis gets boring as hell.

I'm still not sure why they didn't just focus on the Future Foundation. It was a good evolution of the F4 concept.

[Craig H]

Fantastic Four being better than GotG is the most absurd, "MAKE CONTENTIOUS STATEMENTS ABOUT COMIC BOOK MOVIES" thread bullshit I've ever seen.

 

It's like comparing a cat turd to a Fruit Roll-up. So unless you're a dog that eats cat shit, why would you not choose the Fruit Roll-up?

[Cliff Hanger]

The central conflict of Secret Wars is obviously Doom vs. Reed Richards (and Sue Storm has a big role too). Old Man Logan is getting a solo book and is joining the X-Men. X-23 is getting a solos book called "All-New All-Different Wolvberine". There are 5 X-Men flavored books in the All-New All-Different Marvel lineup, plus a Deadpool solo and a Deadpool & Spider-Man team-up book. Johnny Storm is getting a big role in the new Inhumans book. Ben Grimm is getting a big role in the new Guardians book.

They may not be doing stuff you like with the characters, but they aren't going away or getting buried.

On the other hand, Upper Deck was not allowed to use Doom in the Marvel Legendary: Secret Wars expansion, which sucks.

Yes, there will be 5 ongoing X-Books after Secret Wars, 6 counting Deadpool.

Just for shits and giggles I looked up the solicitations for the last four years and counted how many X-Books there were on the stands each year. I've used the month of August for each year.

August 2014: 13 ongoing, 3 minis

August 2013: 16 ongoing, 1 mini

August 2012: 14 ongoing, 4 minis

August 2011: 13 ongoing, 8 minis

Hit spoiler for details:

2014: All-New X-Factor, All-New X-Men, Amazing X-Men, Cyclops, Deadpool, Magneto, Nightcrawler, Storm, Uncanny X-Men, Wolverine, Wolverine & the X-Men, X-Force, X-Men / Minis: Deadpool: Dracula's Gauntlet, Deadpool vs. X-Force, All-New Doop

2013: A+X, All-New X-Men, Astonishing X-Men, Cable & X-Force, Deadpool, Gambit, Savage Wolverine, Ultimate Comics X-Men, Uncanny X-Force, Uncanny X-Men, Wolverine, Wolverine & The X-Men, Wolverine MAX, X-Factor, X-Men, X-Men: Legacy, Mini: Deadpool kills Deadpool

2012: Age of Apocalypse, Astonishing X-Men. Deadpool, Gambit, New Mutants, Ultimate Comics X-Men, Uncanny X-Force, Uncanny X-Men. Wolverine, Wolverine & the X-Men, X-Factor, X-Men, X-Men Legacy, X-Treme X-Men, Minis: Avengers vs. X-Men, Avx: Vs, Deadpool kills the Marvel Universe, First X-Men

2011: Astonishing X-Men, Daken: Dark Wolverine, Deadpool, Generation Hope, New Mutants, Uncanny X-Force, Uncanny X-Men, Wolverine, Wolverine: The Best there is, X-23, X-Factor, X-Men, X-Men Legacy, Minis: Alpha Flight, Deadpool MAX, Fear Itself: Deadpool, Fear Itself: Uncanny X-Force, Fear Itself: Wolverine, Marvel Universe vs. Wolverine, Wolverine & Black Cat: Claws, X-Men: Schism

You still want to claim the X-Men are not getting buried in the comic books?

Alternatively, it could be that Marvel finally figured out thst the constant churn of failed secondary X-books, maybe one in ten of which would reach #25, was doing more harm than good and they should slow the fuck down.