RAW AUGUST 5TH 2013

[piranesi]

 

 

Re: Cena

 

I would consider myself more of a "Batman guy" than a "Superman guy", if that explains things.  The appeal of Batman is seeing how he uses his head to figure out a way to win.  Most of the time, Superman wins because...he's Superman.

 

 

 

This is a basic problem with wrestling heel/face logic.  Every time someone turns face (apparently with the exception of Dolph Ziggler) they gain some superpowers or super-ability-to-kick-out.  Especially the top babyfaces.  They've been Supermen for a long time.  You become a face, you get some kind fo Hulk-up powerup. Turning face is like taking a PED.

 

Meanwhile the heels are fallible, and so have to work harder and be more cunning.  But given this, wouldn't "turning face" be the ultimate heel move?  You suddenly get this huge advantage you didn't have before (super-heart?).  I think that's why a lot of smarks cheer heels.  There's a way in which the Faces, if they are kayfabe-conscious, are pulling off a scam that makes them the ultimate heels...and a heel who doesn't exploit that becomes somehow enobled by not taking the easy way out.

 

I know it's mixing kayfabe logic and non-kayfabe logic...but it's hard not to nowadays when guys like Cena and Punk want their character to be an extension of their backstage image.

 

 

I was thinking something like this the other day when I was watching Chuck Klosterman talk about his new book, which is about evil in popular culture. Part of it is about why people feel drawn to villains.

 

One thing he pointed out was that actors always say the villain roles are more "interesting" but he thinks what they really mean is that those characters are more real. They are flawed and human.

 

I think this absolutely applies to wrestling. The traditional super hero character (Cena or Hogan being the obvious examples) aren't real human beings. We're not perfectly moral and we don't always do the right thing. We're complicated. Randy Savage was fascinating, a ball of energy and neuroses and excitement. CM Punk is thoughtful and principled and stubborn. They're great characters, in a way that Hogan and Cena are not. 

 

 

Savage especially.  He was such a great combination of everything that is powerful and admirable but also dangerous about masculinity.  Protectiveness (but also jealousy), energy (but also violence), loyalty (but also paranoia) the potential to direct rigtheous anger (or irrational selfishness) into action (but sometimes without thought or strategy).  All this in the mid 80s, just at the time when masculinity was being generally derided as primitive and scary.

 

Dude is a Zizek essay waiting to be written.

[tbarrie]

Savage especially.  He was such a great combination of everything that is powerful and admirable but also dangerous about masculinity.  Protectiveness (but also jealousy), energy (but also violence), loyalty (but also paranoia) the potential to direct rigtheous anger (or irrational selfishness) into action (but sometimes without thought or strategy).  All this in the mid 80s, just at the time when masculinity was being generally derided as primitive and scary.

Protectiveness? He used Elizabeth as a human shield all the time.

[piranesi]

 

Savage especially.  He was such a great combination of everything that is powerful and admirable but also dangerous about masculinity.  Protectiveness (but also jealousy), energy (but also violence), loyalty (but also paranoia) the potential to direct rigtheous anger (or irrational selfishness) into action (but sometimes without thought or strategy).  All this in the mid 80s, just at the time when masculinity was being generally derided as primitive and scary.

Protectiveness? He used Elizabeth as a human shield all the time.

 

 

He protected her from Jimmy Hart and Honky.  Christ knows what those two deviants were going to do with her.

 

Also, the fact that she lived in a system, the WWF, where women could be tranferred as property through the winning/losing of a match, or where a freak like George Steele could apparently claim them rightfully (and baby-face-edly) based only on the level and purity of his physical desire meant she was in constant danger.

 

The fact that she lived through the decade is a testement to Randy's vigilance.

[Charlie M.]

I think it's logical that wrestlers get stronger when they turn face because they're feeding off the crowd.  In theory, it's a permanent "home field advantage" for the face.  Obviously that doesn't really work when your top face gets booed all the time but that's another problem.

 

They shouldn't turn into superman but they should get some bump.

[Victator]

The Orndorff heel turn was some great stuff. Because Orndorff is by his very nature a bad guy. But he tried so hard to be the man that Hulk and the fans wanted him to be. Nobody really appreciated his struggle. Hulk was too wrapped up in his responsibilities as champion to notice the cracks. That made him vulnerable to Bobby Heenan and Adrian Adonis. They got in his head and twisted him up. He never had a chance. But the fact he fought his nature for so long, makes him a good guy. 

[odessasteps]

Re: CenaI would consider myself more of a "Batman guy" than a "Superman guy", if that explains things. The appeal of Batman is seeing how he uses his head to figure out a way to win. Most of the time, Superman wins because...he's Superman.Maybe Cena's a legitimately good guy; that's fine. He's not there for fans like me; he's there for the kids to be an "infallible" hero. I haven't been in the "target audience" for a very long time.

Does this mean Cena is goingto break Danielson's neck at Summerslam?

[tbarrie]

 

The fact that she lived through the decade is a [testament] to Randy's vigilance.

That, and to the way the babyfaces never took advantage whenever HE FUCKING HID BEHIND HER.

[muhammedboehm]

Didn't that NXT dude with the glasses do that gimmick down in FCW? I think his name was Percy Jackson or some such...

Percy Jackson like the son of Poseidon?

[Tromatagon]

He was Percy Watson

[Ace]

The Orndorff heel turn was some great stuff. Because Orndorff is by his very nature a bad guy. But he tried so hard to be the man that Hulk and the fans wanted him to be. Nobody really appreciated his struggle. Hulk was too wrapped up in his responsibilities as champion to notice the cracks. That made him vulnerable to Bobby Heenan and Adrian Adonis. They got in his head and twisted him up. He never had a chance. But the fact he fought his nature for so long, makes him a good guy. 

 

Really, if you look at everybody who turned on Hogan, they were pretty justified in doing it.

[APO]

 

 

Re: Cena

 

I would consider myself more of a "Batman guy" than a "Superman guy", if that explains things.  The appeal of Batman is seeing how he uses his head to figure out a way to win.  Most of the time, Superman wins because...he's Superman.

 

 

 

This is a basic problem with wrestling heel/face logic.  Every time someone turns face (apparently with the exception of Dolph Ziggler) they gain some superpowers or super-ability-to-kick-out.  Especially the top babyfaces.  They've been Supermen for a long time.  You become a face, you get some kind fo Hulk-up powerup. Turning face is like taking a PED.

 

Meanwhile the heels are fallible, and so have to work harder and be more cunning.  But given this, wouldn't "turning face" be the ultimate heel move?  You suddenly get this huge advantage you didn't have before (super-heart?).  I think that's why a lot of smarks cheer heels.  There's a way in which the Faces, if they are kayfabe-conscious, are pulling off a scam that makes them the ultimate heels...and a heel who doesn't exploit that becomes somehow enobled by not taking the easy way out.

 

I know it's mixing kayfabe logic and non-kayfabe logic...but it's hard not to nowadays when guys like Cena and Punk want their character to be an extension of their backstage image.

 

 

I was thinking something like this the other day when I was watching Chuck Klosterman talk about his new book, which is about evil in popular culture. Part of it is about why people feel drawn to villains.

 

One thing he pointed out was that actors always say the villain roles are more "interesting" but he thinks what they really mean is that those characters are more real. They are flawed and human.

 

I think this absolutely applies to wrestling. The traditional super hero character (Cena or Hogan being the obvious examples) aren't real human beings. We're not perfectly moral and we don't always do the right thing. We're complicated. Randy Savage was fascinating, a ball of energy and neuroses and excitement. CM Punk is thoughtful and principled and stubborn. They're great characters, in a way that Hogan and Cena are not. 

 

Say what now?

[JRV]

 

 

 

I totally see Shield interference after a ref bump at SS.  Not sure if that's a good thing or not, but it's happening.

 

 

Sadly it will just be a chance for Cena to do the noble thing and not grab the pin.

 

Ugh. yeah. Shield attacks, Cena grunts "Not like this! Not like this!" then they attack him and Bryan takes the win, THEN Orton cashes in. Worst possible outcome. Almost certainly happening.

 

 

Would you prefer that the Shield attacks and gives Cena the triple power bomb, Bryan covers, Cena kicks out, Cena recovers and makes Bryan tap, Orton comes out to cash in his briefcase and fails?

 

Awesome. It would be a great build to the Wrestlemania main event, which will just be "John Cena"

[Victator]

 

The Orndorff heel turn was some great stuff. Because Orndorff is by his very nature a bad guy. But he tried so hard to be the man that Hulk and the fans wanted him to be. Nobody really appreciated his struggle. Hulk was too wrapped up in his responsibilities as champion to notice the cracks. That made him vulnerable to Bobby Heenan and Adrian Adonis. They got in his head and twisted him up. He never had a chance. But the fact he fought his nature for so long, makes him a good guy. 

 

Really, if you look at everybody who turned on Hogan, they were pretty justified in doing it.

 

I don't think he was justified. Just it was his true nature to be a bad guy.

[Overly Critical Man]

Re: CenaI would consider myself more of a "Batman guy" than a "Superman guy", if that explains things. The appeal of Batman is seeing how he uses his head to figure out a way to win. Most of the time, Superman wins because...he's Superman.

This is a basic problem with wrestling heel/face logic. Every time someone turns face (apparently with the exception of Dolph Ziggler) they gain some superpowers or super-ability-to-kick-out. Especially the top babyfaces. They've been Supermen for a long time. You become a face, you get some kind fo Hulk-up powerup. Turning face is like taking a PED.Meanwhile the heels are fallible, and so have to work harder and be more cunning. But given this, wouldn't "turning face" be the ultimate heel move? You suddenly get this huge advantage you didn't have before (super-heart?). I think that's why a lot of smarks cheer heels. There's a way in which the Faces, if they are kayfabe-conscious, are pulling off a scam that makes them the ultimate heels...and a heel who doesn't exploit that becomes somehow enobled by not taking the easy way out.I know it's mixing kayfabe logic and non-kayfabe logic...but it's hard not to nowadays when guys like Cena and Punk want their character to be an extension of their backstage image.

I was thinking something like this the other day when I was watching Chuck Klosterman talk about his new book, which is about evil in popular culture. Part of it is about why people feel drawn to villains.One thing he pointed out was that actors always say the villain roles are more "interesting" but he thinks what they really mean is that those characters are more real. They are flawed and human.I think this absolutely applies to wrestling. The traditional super hero character (Cena or Hogan being the obvious examples) aren't real human beings. We're not perfectly moral and we don't always do the right thing. We're complicated. Randy Savage was fascinating, a ball of energy and neuroses and excitement. CM Punk is thoughtful and principled and stubborn. They're great characters, in a way that Hogan and Cena are not.

Say what now?

I think he meant to say CM Punk is a whiny fake MMA douche with a persecution complex whose purpose on life is to shit on everything like a pretentious hipster.

[Trebor]

 

 

The Orndorff heel turn was some great stuff. Because Orndorff is by his very nature a bad guy. But he tried so hard to be the man that Hulk and the fans wanted him to be. Nobody really appreciated his struggle. Hulk was too wrapped up in his responsibilities as champion to notice the cracks. That made him vulnerable to Bobby Heenan and Adrian Adonis. They got in his head and twisted him up. He never had a chance. But the fact he fought his nature for so long, makes him a good guy. 

 

Really, if you look at everybody who turned on Hogan, they were pretty justified in doing it.

 

I don't think he was justified. Just it was his true nature to be a bad guy.

 

 

Hogan was such a dick he wouldn't even pronounce Mr. Wonderful's name correctly. Paul was most certainly justified.

 

Hogan's version of Orndorff's heel turn:

[Victator]

If Hulk says it is Orndoff it is Orndoff. 

[Trebor]

If Hulk says it is Orndoff it is Orndoff. 

 

To be fair, he also calls him Ondorff.

 

 

Of course the best part is when he says "I've seen Ondorff wired before, but never like this".

[piranesi]

Say what you will about Cena-as-Hulk, but he does things Hulk would never do, like taking time in his promos to plug the other guy's merchandise or get people to chant the other guy's catch phrase.

 

The thought to do that could not have materialized in Hogan's brain.

[Victator]

And Hulk took Ondoff back a year later. I think the best lesson pro wrestling teaches is the cooling power of forgiveness. No crime is bad enough, that your friends will not forgive. 

[piranesi]

And Hulk took Ondoff back a year later. I think the best lesson pro wrestling teaches is the cooling power of forgiveness. No crime is bad enough, that your friends will not forgive. 

 

 

Tell it to Sting.

[Victator]

That is one thing that makes him a great role model. He puts himself out there. Even when he knows it won't work out. Seriously, that is a great lesson we can all take to heart. 

[piranesi]

That is one thing that makes him a great role model. He puts himself out there. Even when he knows it won't work out. Seriously, that is a great lesson we can all take to heart. 

 

 

I may be PMing you soon about a fantastic entpreneurial venture I'm setting up that will fix a lot of what's wrong with the world and fulfill all your dreams with just a little up-front investment.

 

Could you maybe just tell me now what some of your dreams are and I'll see if your vision matches up with what we're doing.  If it does...then you can get in on this.  Let's hope!

[Victator]

Jokes on you, I have no money. And like Sting, I pummel whoever has wronged me for months at a time.

[Hooker]

I'm still shocked that people are missing the boat with what they've been doing with Cena for YEARS.

 

He is not there to be the Superman, white-meat babyface. That is not his function and that is not how he is usually booked. People who complain about Cena playing that role are being worked. Cena has been used as a way to split crowd reaction and generate controversy or excitement with the bigger crowds they run PPVs for. They even mention it on commentary ALL THE TIME how Cena is the most Controversial champion in history.

 

He's there so you can throw faces or heels at him and still get good, strong reactions regardless. In order to keep the crowd split, his character has to stay the same. And for good reason, there is a lot of money in it. Cena matches seem like a big deal almost every time out specially because they expect the "smart" fans to boo him and the kids/women/unjaded to cheer him. If you don't think that reaction is planned and cultivated very carefully then you are deluding yourself.

 

Cena is the greatest "tweener" of all time.

This is just a few steps away from being a conspiracy theory.  How much easier an explanation is it that the company that puts on shows the quality of RAW and Smackdown is just bumbling through a constant John Cena push that isn't working than the explanation that the company that puts on shows the quality of RAW and Smackdown have been walking a tightrope act perfectly for ten years?

[Fat Spanish Waiter]

Define "isn't working".