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NXT 2015 THREAD


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I think Charlotte alright, but I've yet to see a match I thought she was the best person in that got time. I mean the potential is clearly there, and I think she becomes real good, but shes getting out wrestled by Brie Bella in there matches right now.

I will say Sasha brings out the best in her because it makes her wrestle like she should: hate filled technical wrestling with a touch of brawling.

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I haven't watched Charlotte versus Nattie in a while, but I remember that match being really good. And Nattie against Layla just a few weeks before that was really bad, and it wasn't all because of Layla being rusty. Nattie's usually pretty bad. Charlotte just didn't get a career high-water mark out of someone who messes up basic crap pretty regularly. She got a great match, period.

Sasha's passed Charlotte by now, but Sasha's one of the two or three best workers in the company right now.  Charlotte has a much better body of work than Becky. Becky's awesome, but she was sort of just there until the breakout match against Sasha. I'll take Bayley over Charlotte because she's such an awesome underdog, but Charlotte's athleticism is just absolutely unreal.

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The Nattie-Charlotte match gets dragged down a lot for me by the horrible figure four series, where at one point, Charlotte forgets whether she is supposed to be selling or not.  The figure four and its reversal are a part of the public school curriculum in Charlotte (excuse me, the "Queen City"), so it seemed particularly jarring coming from her.  Like sub-Miz bad.

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While I agree that the figure-four reversal is something ingrained in any and all residents of the Charlotte metropolitan area from birth, and that spot was bad, this was the best match of Nattie's career by a long walk. And Charlotte has less than two years in the business, so forgetting the mechanics of something like that late in a match (with adrenaline and trying to remember what comes next and TV cues and etc.) isn't an egregious sin on her end at all.

The girl is GREAT.

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I haven't watched Charlotte versus Nattie in a while, but I remember that match being really good. And Nattie against Layla just a few weeks before that was really bad, and it wasn't all because of Layla being rusty. Nattie's usually pretty bad. Charlotte just didn't get a career high-water mark out of someone who messes up basic crap pretty regularly. She got a great match, period.

Sasha's passed Charlotte by now, but Sasha's one of the two or three best workers in the company right now.  Charlotte has a much better body of work than Becky. Becky's awesome, but she was sort of just there until the breakout match against Sasha. I'll take Bayley over Charlotte because she's such an awesome underdog, but Charlotte's athleticism is just absolutely unreal.

Yet that match wasn't as good as AJ vs. Natalya from that Febuary, at least IMO. Natalya's entire thing is she is really good when she cares, and really shit when she doesn't, and most of the time she doesn't. If you had worked in the Divas division the last 5+ years, you would probably have issues with it too.

And Charlotte at no point was better then Sasha. She was just put into a position to succeed first.

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I want to see what Emma can do in a 10 minute match with one of the NXT 4. I could see going as high as third for Emma in the best women wrestlers in WWE list behind Sasha and Becky. Emma is the only person I've seen do something really good with Paige, and it's not like she's gotten much of a chance since NXT Arrival to have a great match. I could see Bayley giving Sasha a run for her money if she pulls off this current run to the tile like I hope she will.

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Becky's had one truly outstanding match in NXT. That was against Sasha. She hasn't had a chance to follow up on it yet. Before that, she was pretty aimless character wise and didn't do anything really spectacular beyond the Four Way, which everyone else was in.

Not saying she isn't awesome, because she is. But Charlotte's had more high-quality matches then Becky. I think everyone is talking Becky up because of what she did on the indies before she got hurt. (And people are underselling Charlotte since she doesn't have Shimmer on her IMDB.) She's terrific, but she doesn't have the overall body of work of the other three.

I will grant that Becky's match with Sasha is my MOTY so far, however.

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 I haven't seen a single non NXT Becky Lynch match, but I have no problem saying she's a better pro wrestler than Charlotte based on what I've seen. Becky has had some pretty great shorter tv matches. The one where she targeted Bayley's injured knee the whole time was a masterpiece, and something I don't think Charlotte is capable of. People were doubting how good Sasha was before her first Takeover singles match, but I had no doubt based on the way she looked in shorter matches.

 

Charlotte has delivered in big matches, but so has every other woman in NXT when given the chance. Saying Charlotte has had more high quality matches than Becky is like saying Cena has more high quality matches than Bryan this year. Of course she does she's had way more opportunities to have great matches. Becky's had two featured matches, and one of them is the best women's match in WWE history.

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Regal posted a link to this, so might as well post it here

eireplusalba.wordpress.com/sports/wrestling/dean-ambrose/dean-ambrose-feud-with-william-regal-fcw/25-december-2013-the-last-match-of-william-regal/

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Becky took a number of missteps character wise before she connected based off her work in the Sasha Banks match.  I would agree she was always a better mechanic than Charlotte but the character work wasn't there.  This goes beyond the jig dancing and through the second banana period as Sasha's running buddy.  I don't even know if the steampunk stuff is really working or if it is just a byproduct of the one outstanding match.  Charlotte for having certain rough patches in matches, has always presented very clearly as a performer.  I feel more like I know who Charlotte is and that means more than who messed up a figure-four spot.

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Becky's had one truly outstanding match in NXT. That was against Sasha. She hasn't had a chance to follow up on it yet. Before that, she was pretty aimless character wise and didn't do anything really spectacular beyond the Four Way, which everyone else was in.

 

Actually, Becky had a really good match with Bayley last December I think. It was a short match, but it was really smartly built around Becky going for a leg submission and getting closer and closer until Bayley ran out of counters.

 

Becky strikes me as easily the most skilled woman on the roster, but hasn't gotten as many opportunities to shine. 

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I don't think people are underrating Charlotte because she never was in SHIMMER. That's a strange comment, as if folks can't watch this stuff and make what isn't a crazy judgment (Sasha, Becky, and Bayley are better) on their own without considering background. Someone said Brie was putting in better in-ring work than Charlotte; where's Brie's SHIMMER tape? Sasha Banks wasn't exactly lighting it up in the indies before she got to NXT either. 

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It's Gregg's default strawman argument whenever someone doesn't gush over a worker like he does.  See earlier this year, when he claimed that no one would have a problem with the Roman Reigns push if he'd come from ROH or NJPW.

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 Charlotte for having certain rough patches in matches, has always presented very clearly as a performer.  I feel more like I know who Charlotte is and that means more than who messed up a figure-four spot.

We all know who Charlotte is because her dad is one of the most famous wrestlers of all time. That's her gimmick, and if It wasn't for that I'm not sure her character would have any direction in or out of the ring. No a messed up figure 4 spot isn't a big deal, and it has nothing to do with Becky being a better wrestler than Charlotte.

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 (And people are underselling Charlotte since she doesn't have Shimmer on her IMDB.) 

 

 

*sigh* Anytime you pull this line on someone it makes me unsure if you are trolling or just being a giant ass.

 

I had never heard of Sasha Banks before I started watching NXT. She never once wrestled Shimmer. I still have watched a grand total of 0 matches of hers before NXT. I think shes the best wrestler in the WWE not named Cesaro. But yes, Indy Fucking bias.

 

It's not all about match output. It's about what you do in the matches you have. Sasha and Becky are both outstanding at working in just about every match they have. Sasha is miles ahead of just about anyone in working as a character and telling smart stories. Becky is technically great in a way that just about nobody is anymore. Tell her to work an old school "work a body part" match, she will probably give you outstanding results with just about anyone whose worth a darn. 

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It's Gregg's default strawman argument whenever someone doesn't gush over a worker like he does.  See earlier this year, when he claimed that no one would have a problem with the Roman Reigns push if he'd come from ROH or NJPW.

 

Not to derail the thread or start an argument--but I've read enough from other sites to think there's something to that.  Not the be all, end all of the conversation, but there's a bit of validity to that belief.

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How some people think DVDVR posters evaluate wrestlers: 1. Load up custom wrestling database excel sheet. 2. Find Wrestler you want to discuss 3. Enter formula "=if(or(wrestlerworkedin(Japan,Indies)=TRUE,Good Wrestler,Bad Wrestler)" 4. Once you get your result log in to DVDVR to discuss.

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Not to derail the thread or start an argument--but I've read enough from other sites to think there's something to that.  Not the be all, end all of the conversation, but there's a bit of validity to that belief.

 

That may be true, but does this place look like Cageside Seats or Reddit's Squared Circle?

 

Please say "No, it doesn't," please say "No, it doesn't," please say "No, it doesn't..."

 

Seriously, if Gregg thinks that little of DVDVR posters even when they write essays on what they like and don't like about wrestling and have really eclectic tastes that they explain really clearly and with much analysis, self- or otherwise, that's pretty much a shame. 

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We all know who Charlotte is because her dad is one of the most famous wrestlers of all time. That's her gimmick, and if It wasn't for that I'm not sure her character would have any direction in or out of the ring. No a messed up figure 4 spot isn't a big deal, and it has nothing to do with Becky being a better wrestler than Charlotte.

Yeah, one of Charlotte's flaws is she has a very ambiguous character. They do use it to advantage thou; she can play up the heel or face role depending on her opponents/crowd reaction. They should really emphasize the Flair pedigree going forward since that seems to be the thing that connects with the audience consistently.

 

Charlotte's 4th in the Four Horsewomen wrestling wise, but she's also the most improved in the company.

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It's Gregg's default strawman argument whenever someone doesn't gush over a worker like he does. See earlier this year, when he claimed that no one would have a problem with the Roman Reigns push if he'd come from ROH or NJPW.

Not to derail the thread or start an argument--but I've read enough from other sites to think there's something to that. Not the be all, end all of the conversation, but there's a bit of validity to that belief.

Sure there is.

That's why there's been no end of praise for indy darling Solomon Crowe.

That's why we all hate Tyler Breeze so much.

That's why no one on the board has ever expressed an opinion of Finn Bálor that's been anything less than the most fulsome of praise.

That's why we're still so fucking pissed about the American fucking Wolves getting cut from NXT.

Because we're a hivemind doncha know?

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I'll FREELY admit that I like the indie workers.  I hadn't seen Sasha Banks pre-WWE, but had a natural bias toward her since she had wrestled before NXT and wasn't just a model who was hired first and then trained.

 

Of course, I also like Naomi.

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I did lump some people into arguments. But to be fair:

1) Becky has had exactly one stand-out match in NXT. I am nothing but effusive of praise on this match. But when someone above said she can go and work an old-school limb-based match, you're basing this off of exactly one match and... what else? She was flailing in NXT character wise. Her matches were obviously good and she's very crisp in the ring. But she didn't have a good match until she wrestled Sasha... who is possibly the best wrestler in the entire company. Not that Sasha carried her, because she didn't. But everyone is raving about Becky based off of either one NXT match, unless you count what she did previously. I don't know how that is an unfair statement by any means whatsoever.

2) Charlotte had a whole bunch of good-to-great matches. Sure she forgot to properly sell a Figure Four reversal in her match against Nattie. The rest of that match was ridiculously good... and it was her first ever live TV match! And against someone who is really not all that good, save for an AJ match I have to watch, which is likely an AJ carry job.

Charlotte also had an absolutely great match against Sasha. I have to watch the Bayley one, but we were all raving about that match, too.

She has a much better string of matches than Becky has. Yes, she's had more opportunities. So what? That's not Charlotte's fault. That's being held against Charlotte for some reason.

Her character archetype is "Awesome." She knows how good she is and she knows her pedigree. She doesn't boast about it or rely upon it. I think the Figure 8 is maybe the best move in terms of a character going today. Yes, she's the daughter of the Nature Boy. But she's the evolutionary step in the family tree, hence she's developed an even better version of her daddy's trademark move.

But Becky has apparently surpassed her in The Four Horsewomen. This is either based off of one admittedly terrific match. Or it's also based on the fact that a lot of people saw her in Shimmer/Japan/indies/etc. and are factoring that in. Perhaps not consciously. But people do carry with them biases when critically reviewing any form of art. (I admit that I do.) I am pointing out that fact, and for some reason that drives everyone up the wall. Eh, whatever.

3) Post-Royal Rumble, Roman Reigns has been absolutely awesome. His last big match against Bray was great. I didn't see Extreme Rules, but a lot of people loved the match against Big Show. His match against Brock was awesome. His match against Daniel Bryan was awesome. And before he got hurt, he was in The Shield. And some people tried to rewrite that he as the hot tag guy, casually overlooking that The Shield were faces for about the final two months in their run.

So, what was wrong with Roman Reigns, again?

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To say Becky didn't have a good match prior to the Sasha match is a gross understatement. She had a few good ones with Bayley where she starts to show her "submission specialist" style and then around the time of the good three way with her, Bayley and Charlotte she starts breaking out the suplexes. Also I don't watch any indy/puro/lucha so outside influences don't cloud my judgement on this.

 

And I agree that WWE would be in better shape had Roman Reigns won at Wrestlemania.

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