NOV WRESTLING DISCUSSION

[Casey]

X7 has some low points, for sure, but it's overall an amazing show. Chyna/Ivory, the Right to Censor six man tag, and as much as it pains me to say, Eddie had an awful match with Test. I'm ignoring Benoit/Angle, for obvious reasons. With that said, though, even back then, I thought that match was dull as fuck. I also don't remember enjoying Jericho/Regal all that much, either. The matches that worked, however.... worked like a fucking charm.

 

Maybe XXX is a better show top to bottom.

[Niners Fan in CT]

It's difficult to compare. For example, I'm not really a big fan of TLC matches anymore and shit like that but at the time the Dudleys/E&C/Hardys TLC match was bonkers and the inclusion of Spike/Rhyno/Lita made it even crazier. If I went back and watched that match now, I'm not sure I would feel the same way about it when I saw it live.

Same thing with Shane vs. Vince. I just don't think a lot of the Attitude Era stuff holds up for me because I've been beaten over the head with it for the past decade or more.

The Rock vs. Austin with both men at or near their peak in popularity is something we may never see again. Bryan/Batista/Orton is a great match and I felt Bryan/HHH was even better but it's hard to compare them to the spectacle of Austin/Rock. I think Bryan winning the title is one of my favorite Mania moments ever, though.

On the flipside, there's Lesnar/Taker. I didn't like the match but the shock of Lesnar conquering the streak is something nobody will ever forget. I think HHH/Taker from X-7 is the better match but it didn't have the moment. I will say that the sledgehammer strike out of the Last Ride attempt is a top 5 near fall in Streak matches.

I don't know. Both are incredible shows. Even little things like Cesaro winning the Andre memorial were great. It pisses me off that WM XXX was so fucking good and 6 months later the produck is pretty awful.

And for Niners Fan neither one had Punk and both had Triple H and Kane and the Undertaker.

I don't get it, am I some huge fan of the Brothers of Destruction? I saw they have a DVD/Blu Ray set but I can't imagine what's on it..

[Brian Fowler]

I'd take Punk/Taker over the Wrestlemania 26 HBK and Wrestlemania 28 HHH matches pretty easily.  I'd be hard pressed to make a call between it and the 25 HBK match, and it definitely wasn't as good as the 27 HHH match.

[Brian Fowler]

I'd still take X7 as the best with XIX at second.  But XXX is right in the mix below those two.  Really excellent show.

 

The Brock/Taker match grew on me with a couple rewatches.

 

 

EDIT:  XXIV is right up there too.  22 gets a lot of points from me for the atmosphere is nothing else.  VII is probably the most overlooked great Mania.

[OSJ]

I'll go along with that, the fall from the high of WrestleMania XXX to what we have now was pretty epic. The culprits as have been suggested before have been bad writing, injuries, and really piss poor planning. Trips has it right when he says "There's always a Plan B", at least there SHOULD be when you are dealing with human beings performing incredibly dangerous physical stunts night after night. I don't care how good you are, people get hurt. I don't want to insinuate that people should be treated like interchangeable parts, but it's really not wise to put all your eggs in one basket, which is something the WWE does over and over again, which always leads to the seemingly indestructible John Cena staying on top of the card.

[Niners Fan in CT]

Those are probably the top 3. I have a weird obsession with WrestleMania V. I love everything about it. Ventura/Gorilla on commentary and they are on fire all night. The Rockers vs. The Twin Towers is very entertaining. Classic feuds like Warrior/Rude and The Mega Powers EXPLODE.

WM XX is a pretty damn good show. I think Evolution vs. The Rock N' Sock Connection is a match that nobody ever talks about but is extremely entertaining.

[Casey]

I'm really curious as to how things would have played out if it was Cena that needed all these surgeries and stuff instead of D-Bry. I'm not wishing ill of Cena or anything, but WWE would be 100% more interesting if their hand was forced because Cena was out for a year+. You've gotta assume that sooner or later, it's going to happen though. Unless Cena gets out before it happens, but I don't think he will. He'll have an injury one day that he can't come back super early from, and WWE will officially go into super ultra panic mode.

 

EDIT: I think I blocked WrestleMania XX from my mind because of Benoit, but yeah, that was a hell of a show too. I remember absolutely loving Molly/Victoria. I'm a mark for excellent divas matches, though.

[Ziggy]

As a young black male I find this funny, because I could imagine Macho Man wanting to be black himself.

 

Stevie Ray Recalls Reaction to Booker T’s ‘N-Word’ WCW Promo

 

 

On Booker T and Hulk Hogan’s reaction to the infamous Spring Stampede promo:“Well, It really bothered my brother. It really bothered him, whereas all the guys were ribbing him and were like, ‘What’s up n**ga?’ Randy Savage and whoever… They all got a big, big kick out of it. It was the pop of the night. So the next day, we go to

do Nitro after the pay-per-view that Sunday and I remember I was sitting at a table, you know – we were in catering – I’m sitting at the table and Hogan walks in. So me and Hogan would always talk about cars and motorcycles, because he’s into cars much like myself. I think he was getting some food when Randy Savage came in and was like, ‘Hey, Hulk, what’s going on man? You know Booker T called you an n**ga?’ Then Hogan was like ‘That’s OK man, at least I’m a good n**ga.’ The whole catering area popped. I mean everybody in the catering room just popped. And I think that’s when some of the pressure kind of came off my brother. That’s a true story, I’ve never told it before… After Hogan did that, it pretty much died that day.”

 

[OSJ]

I certainly don't wish John Cena any harm, he's a top-notch performer and seems to be a genuinely nice guy and a great public face of the company. However, he's not getting any younger and guys with his musculature have to work all that much harder to keep from running to flab. Yes, he has a rep as having a work ethic that's on the same level as Ric Flair, but sooner or later things will start breaking down. What do they do then? Rush Dean Ambrose into the top spot? Not a bad idea, but Ambrose (like Piper before him) really needs another A-lister to play off of. Bray Wyatt is the best promo man of his generation, but I don't ever want to see him in a 30-minute or longer solo match, he just doesn't have the ability. Do you go back to Randy Orton? I'll admit that Randy's been on fire the last few weeks, but lots of folk aren't that enamored of him. I seriously doubt that Daniel Bryan will ever be back and the months that Roman Reigns would have spent getting ready for the main event push, he's having to spend convalescing from surgery.

 

Anything happens to Cena and they are in the unenviable position of having a special eventer as Champ and no one new to turn to. Zayn is one of my favorite wrestlers, but he's a long way off from being to capture a national audience in the big show. Baron Corbin? Yeah, very possibly a main eventer, the guy drips charisma, has a great gimmick, and tremendous upside... One little problem, we don't know how capable he is in the ring. You ain't going to main event WrestleMania with a twenty second squash match. Rebuilding Dolph Ziggler is certainly a smart move, but the goofy name needed to go away yesterday. That pretty much leaves only Rusev and the returning Luke Harper as guys that don't need to be rebuilt and I don't have any great faith in Harper's gimmick sustaining him as a main eventer. He's one of the best working bug guys in the biz today, but I don't see that the gimmick of a hillbilly in a filthy t-shirt is going to move much merchandise.

[Brian Fowler]

XX is a great 3 hour show that happens to have run about 4.5 hours.  It's just so fucking long.

[Ziggy]

Anything happens to Cena and they are in the unenviable position of having a special eventer as Champ and no one new to turn to. Zayn is one of my favorite wrestlers, but he's a long way off from being to capture a national audience in the big show. Baron Corbin? Yeah, very possibly a main eventer, the guy drips charisma, has a great gimmick, and tremendous upside... One little problem, we don't know how capable he is in the ring. You ain't going to main event WrestleMania with a twenty second squash match. Rebuilding Dolph Ziggler is certainly a smart move, but the goofy name needed to go away yesterday. That pretty much leaves only Rusev and the returning Luke Harper as guys that don't need to be rebuilt and I don't have any great faith in Harper's gimmick sustaining him as a main eventer. He's one of the best working bug guys in the biz today, but I don't see that the gimmick of a hillbilly in a filthy t-shirt is going to move much merchandise.

Its not Cenas fault that there arent anybody behind him, its the offices fault for not protecting people to be the next in line or plan B to Cena. I truely believe Cena has no problem putting guys over and making certain guys looks strong and he did with Cersaro last year and they didnt follow up. Im sure he doesnt want guys too take his spot but I'm sure he doesnt want to be the only one at the top.

[Casey]

I don't think he was blaming Cena. It's more of a problem with the office, like you said. If Cena goes down with an injury like Bryan that takes him out for a good chunk of time - WWE. Is. Fucked.

[Ziggy]

And people can say what they want about Punk but if Cena is Hulk Punk was Macho Man.

[StretchMediatedHypertrophy]

If your expectation is for Punk to somehow get people to buy him going over Taker, then he failed in that regard. Personally I think that's probably a little unrealistic, and it's a really fun match for what it is. It wasn't even the semi-main, and as such it's hard to really compare it to the Michaels or HHH Undertaker matches. There's enough to suggest Punk could have delivered better matches with Taker than them if given the genuine opportunity to do so

[Spritenaut 32]

That pretty much leaves only Rusev and the returning Luke Harper as guys that don't need to be rebuilt and I don't have any great faith in Harper's gimmick sustaining him as a main eventer. He's one of the best working bug guys in the biz today, but I don't see that the gimmick of a hillbilly in a filthy t-shirt is going to move much merchandise.

 

Luke Harper came along 20 yrs too late.  Luke Harper, evil exterminator, would have fit right in during the early 90's.

[evilwaldo]

 

Anything happens to Cena and they are in the unenviable position of having a special eventer as Champ and no one new to turn to. Zayn is one of my favorite wrestlers, but he's a long way off from being to capture a national audience in the big show. Baron Corbin? Yeah, very possibly a main eventer, the guy drips charisma, has a great gimmick, and tremendous upside... One little problem, we don't know how capable he is in the ring. You ain't going to main event WrestleMania with a twenty second squash match. Rebuilding Dolph Ziggler is certainly a smart move, but the goofy name needed to go away yesterday. That pretty much leaves only Rusev and the returning Luke Harper as guys that don't need to be rebuilt and I don't have any great faith in Harper's gimmick sustaining him as a main eventer. He's one of the best working bug guys in the biz today, but I don't see that the gimmick of a hillbilly in a filthy t-shirt is going to move much merchandise.

Its not Cenas fault that there arent anybody behind him, its the offices fault for not protecting people to be the next in line or plan B to Cena. I truely believe Cena has no problem putting guys over and making certain guys looks strong and he did with Cersaro last year and they didnt follow up. Im sure he doesnt want guys too take his spot but I'm sure he doesnt want to be the only one at the top.

 

 

 

That has been my biggest complaint for some time now.  The top level roster is very thin.

 

They are building Dean towards headlining status and Reigns will likely get a huge push when he returns.  Orton is pretty much the second guy behind Cena.

 

Below them you have guys like Ziggler, Ryback, and Sheamus that are solid.

 

On the heel side it is even worse.  You have one guy, Rollins.

 

Lesnar is a part-timer who does not bother to show up for RAW or Smackdown so I cannot count him as a consistent main event guy.  He has limited appearances and does not work the road with the guys.  Chances are he goes back to the UFC when his contract is up.

 

Outside of Rollins you have Mizdow and Rusev who are months away from headlining.

[Nice Guy Eddie]

Those are probably the top 3. I have a weird obsession with WrestleMania V. I love everything about it. Ventura/Gorilla on commentary and they are on fire all night. The Rockers vs. The Twin Towers is very entertaining. Classic feuds like Warrior/Rude and The Mega Powers EXPLODE.

You don't see a lot of love for earlier Mania's, but I also love WM5, also WM4. Sure, there were a lot of throwaway matches, but the big things have still stuck with me, like Hogan vs. Savage, Demolition beating Strike Force, Rude beating Warrior. Honestly, I don't remember much of the Mania's after WM20 until WM29. I know it can also be attributed to me being more into indy wrestling, particilarly ROH from 2004-2008.

[Skeeball Wizard]

Speaking of Kane, is he the guy with the most longevity in at least a fairly high-profile role in a major company - if we're counting his earlier incarnations as Isaac Yankem and Fake Diesel, it's been nineteen years - with the least number of memorable matches? Like, if someone were putting together a Kane compilation, what would you even put on it? I don't even think he's terrible as a wrestler; he's just really, really, REALLY mediocre. Is his best work as the hot-tag component of a tag team with a good FIP, like Kane/X-Pac (which I remember enjoying as a tag team).

I think Kane's best matches were Survivor Series vs Foley right after his debut, the match where he dropped the IC belt to Albert on Smackdown and the Raw match against Big Show where they decided to chain wrestle for some reason.

[OSJ]

I wasn't blaming Cena at all, he doesn't write the shows nor does he do the long-range planning. He shows up, does what he's asked to do and does it pretty well, no problem with Cena at all.  My problem is exactly what evilwaldo points out, a very thin roster at the top. This isn't because of a lack of talent, it's because of arrogance or stupidity or both on the part of creative. EW says that Rusev isn't ready for the main, he easily could be, rebuilt Ryback easily could be. I think we all agree that Cesaro has been horribly misused to the point that it would take a miracle to move him up the card now.

 

Ziggler and Sheamus are fine, but I don't think either of them can be pushed to the top now. I could be wrong, casual fans have short memories, but WWE seemingly insists on putting themselves in this position where there is literally no Plan B. 

[ebbie]

1) I've always loved the Taker vs Diesel WM match. Other than the Taker vs Flair, Taker vs HHH (2001) and that one, I haven't really liked any Taker WM matches.

 

2) Punk bored the shit out of me. So, I am glad he is gone.

 

3) I hope some asshole starts chanting "A-J PUNK" at CM Punk whenever he does what he does at Chicago arena sporting events. On the bright side, at least someone will know the fuck he is.

[Cristobal]

3) I hope some asshole starts chanting "A-J PUNK" at CM Punk whenever he does what he does at Chicago arena sporting events.

Buys a ticket and watches the game?

[SirSmUgly]

I'm actually looking forward to seeing WM XII again when I get there in my WWE viewing. I'm about ten months out, but I remember that show as a really weird bridge show between the post-'80s malaise and what would become the Attitude Era. I'm wondering how Goldust/Piper and Taker/Diesel look almost twenty years into the future in particular. Why did you like Taker/Diesel, Ebbie?

[Brian Fowler]

Taker/Diesel is great.

[OSJ]

I won't say "great" but it is the best match that Kevin Nash has ever been involved in.

[evilwaldo]

I wasn't blaming Cena at all, he doesn't write the shows nor does he do the long-range planning. He shows up, does what he's asked to do and does it pretty well, no problem with Cena at all.  My problem is exactly what evilwaldo points out, a very thin roster at the top. This isn't because of a lack of talent, it's because of arrogance or stupidity or both on the part of creative. EW says that Rusev isn't ready for the main, he easily could be, rebuilt Ryback easily could be. I think we all agree that Cesaro has been horribly misused to the point that it would take a miracle to move him up the card now.

 

Ziggler and Sheamus are fine, but I don't think either of them can be pushed to the top now. I could be wrong, casual fans have short memories, but WWE seemingly insists on putting themselves in this position where there is literally no Plan B.

If Cena and Rollins went down who would drive buyrates? At least in the Attitude Era there were multiple main eventers. Rock, Austin, HHH, foley, Edge, etc.