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I really like Gregg and his positive outlook on things but we don't need a whole board of Gregg's either.. we are here to discuss wrestling and there will be differing opinions. I'm shocked that anyone could not love rusev and Lana.

I'm fine with disagreements and criticisms of the program. But so much of it is just rote nonsense with no thought behind other than VINCE AND WRITERZ~ without any critical thought behind it. And there are plenty of things I don't like about stuffing instead of potatoes right now and I freely state them. I think Sheamus is a snooze and Miz is worthless and the really talented Sandow is wasted. The Bellas are a giant waste of time, although they're better than they were, but that's like saying a NFL team won 2 games last year but 1 the year before so they're now twice as good. I wish they'd give the tag division some more room to work with. I'd like to have more Bo Dallas in my life.

I liked Ambrose/Rollins last night but their lumberjack and Raw matches were both a lot better. I dug the stretcher spots and the like but, once they got in the cage, it wasn't what I wanted. They made an interesting choice in building to the big spot at first (and Ambrose spinning kendo sticks on top of the cage and decimating the new stooges was great) and, on paper, the conclusion -- Dean's about to do what Rollins did to him with cinderblocks until GLURT -- should have worked. But it didn't really do it for me. It was close to being great but instead was just pretty good.

But you guys all need to get a grip. Like I said -- the first HITC ever ended with the demonic younger brother of a wrestling zombie interfering in a classic match in a classic rivalry. How is this different than that? You're going to stop watching the WWE now because of this ending? Really? It's really defensible -- chickenshit Rollins gets to brag for an undeserved victory. Also. Daniel Bryan did pretty well for himself last year when he got sidetracked (or "buried" in the parlance of others) by Bray. It's the same formula.

He did pretty well because the crowd fucking demanded he be pushed or more or less completely ruin there Mania main event like they ruined the Rumble. Or are you seriously gonna tell me they planned the crowd turning on Batista to the point of "having to turn returning guy in a major motion picture later that year heel" heat he got?

Also, let's get one thing straight. The first HITC was between two former world champions, and was interrupted by a hyped new act that was coming in specifically as a rival to a pre-established main eventer. This was a match between two guys trying to break into the main event after months of bullshit and non finishes, and was interrupted by a guy who jobbed clean to a part timer 3 months ago.

I'm done talking about Bryan's push or how it happened. I wasn't in the WWE writer's room. Neither were you. So please stop acting like you know how or when they pulled the trigger. Maybe it did happen the way everyone who critiques wrestling based on NEWZ~ written but illiterates. I am a journalist. I don't believe half the crap I read in the NY Times. Do you think I'm going to buy whatever Meltzer is selling in an industry that's still incredibly carny? Or, even better, like Meltzer isn't a carny himself? He gets subscriptions and views driven by news that people who thrive on backstage gossip need to know. He's like Fox News is to conservatives or MSNBC is to left-of-center types. He has a product and knows his audience. WrestleZone and the like are even worse.

I take all of that stuff with a grain of salt and don't let it cloud my judgment when I watch the stories unfold. Does anyone care what machinations happen in Hollywood when movies get made or who gets cast in what role? Because that happens all of the time. But not one critic ever brings it up because, ultimately, it doesn't matter one bit.

Watch wrestling however you want. That's fine. But if you're basing your thoughts on the program based on whatever nonsense is "reported," than I reserve the right to point out you're basing your criticisms on watching stuffing instead of potatoes through a really dumb and pointless lens.

Bray also won clean against Jericho a few weeks ago. And they've built him back up in some pretty great vignettes. So there's that, too.

I don't read the Observer or any other wrestling newsletter bullshit, I just use deductive reasoning. Batista returns as they completely remove Bryan from the title picture. At the Rumble, Bryan jobs clean to Wyatt, setting up Bray going after Cena later in the show, while Batista wins the Rumble to a smattering of boos from a crowd that wanted Bryan there bad. I don't need to read a newsletter to know when an audible is called.

So, essentially you're saying: "I hate the WWE for giving me the match and result I wanted."

No, I'm saying I know well enough to not give them credit for booking something right when it's clear they fell into it, and still were trying to go away from it until there hand was forced. My evidence is just history before that, what direction they were going, and what we have now.

My grudge against them is how they had a great thing going and the fucked just about every part of it up in spectacular and borderline impressive fashion. They dismantled the Wyatt's to the point of having to pull them off TV without injuries because of how much damage they had done. Cesaro has gone from a special moment winning the battle royal, to a guy whose gimmick is basically "guy who can't win when it counts". And the Shield breakup, the one thing this company has really been going well with, was just pushed out of the forefront on a non ending to setup two significantly less interesting feuds, in a match that at the end of the day, did nothing to help Ambrose or Rollins. If they are going to fuck up everything good they touch, why in gods name would I have faith in them to not fuck up the next thing?

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The Demon Kane doesn't wear suits, only Korporate Kane does. Then you have Weekend Khakis Kane who likes to kick it in a pair of pleated dad khakis on the weekend while cooking brats on the grill.

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So is there any reason why they call Kane, "Corporate Kane"? Is it to differentiate from "The Demon Kane" or something? Cole screaming, "CORPORATE KANE JUST SPRAYED HIM WITH THE FIRE EXTINGUISHER" is just silly.

Yup. They wanna be able to pull out "The Demon Kane" when he needs a boost. Kinda like a poor man's version of Mick Foley/Cactus Jack.

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The Kanes go to the grocery store.

Corporate Kane buys store-brand goods, ("they're just as good as name brands, and cheaper") with all the staples for a balanced diet, and a few luxuries, like Ding-Dongs and imported beer.

Weekend Khakis Kane eats like a college student. He buys cases of beer, sausages and burgers, bread, and peanut butter, as well as lots of sugary and/or salty snacks.

Demon Kane just heads for the deli and demands meat.

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The Demon Kane doesn't wear suits, only Korporate Kane does. Then you have Weekend Khakis Kane who likes to kick it in a pair of pleated dad khakis on the weekend while cooking brats on the grill.

This might be the best post in this entire thread.

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Can anyone honestly argue that either Rollins or Ambrose are more over now than they were at the beginning of their feud? From my perspective, they're both clearly less over. If that's the case, then what good did the feud do?

 

I'd be interested in hearing you back up your perspective.

 

 

Has anyone in this thread even said they are NEVER GOING WATCH WWE EVER AGAIN?

 

Essentially, yes:

This show did accomplish one thing.  It convinced me to wash my hands of the business entirely outside of my own commitments as an announcer.  I tried to get back in recently, but it's clearly not for me. Call me when Vince is dead.

 

This show was not great and not terrible, so I don't know why everyone's reactions seem to be so extreme. There certainly shouldn't be anyone jumping down Gregg's throat for discussing a product he enjoys that everyone is shitting on in highly dramatic fashion.

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On Cesaro:

Where should he be right now, exactly after his Battle Royale win? This is a legitimate question.

A face and right in the mix to potentially be in line at a title shot at Lesnar, probably in Zigglers spot right now. Certainly not a mid level heel, when the crowd was ready to cheer him.

 

 

That was a WrestleMania and post-WM crowd that cheered from him that are completely different from every other WWE crowd. That should be factored into the discussion.

And he's essentially at the spot where you'd like him at right now, just a heel as opposed to a face. Is it THAT objectionable?

 

There are also more worthy candidates in line against Lesnar: Cena, Orton, Rollins and Reigns when he comes back. Three of those guys are as good as Cesaro in terms of work (and Cesaro's excellent) and Reigns has had the narrative push for two years.

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On Cesaro:

Where should he be right now, exactly after his Battle Royale win? This is a legitimate question.

A face and right in the mix to potentially be in line at a title shot at Lesnar, probably in Zigglers spot right now. Certainly not a mid level heel, when the crowd was ready to cheer him.

 

That was a WrestleMania and post-WM crowd that cheered from him that are completely different from every other WWE crowd. That should be factored into the discussion.

And he's essentially at the spot where you'd like him at right now, just a heel as opposed to a face. Is it THAT objectionable?

Ziggler is currently the companies No.3 face. Cesaro is about the. No.8 or 9 heel. That is a substantial difference, whether or not They just had a program or not.

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This show was not great and not terrible, so I don't know why everyone's reactions seem to be so extreme. There certainly shouldn't be anyone jumping down Gregg's throat for discussing a product he enjoys that everyone is shitting on in highly dramatic fashion.

 

 

THIS. There have been way worse shows and way better shows. I'm not the one being hyperbolic here in the least.

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Cesaro should be a world title contender. He has shown he can hang with anyone and he is the only wrestler I can think of who routinely comes out to a muted reaction and gets the crowd into his matches. 

 

It is very difficult to be a world title contender when you are not protected...ask Dolph Ziggler. 

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They blew a big opportunity whether they wanted to keep Cesaro heel or turn him face when he was a Heyman guy.

 

I honestly don't know a whole, whole lot about him - can he carry his weight on the mic, or does he need someone to talk for him?

 

I think he'd work better as a face, 'cause the crowd enjoys counting along with the giant swing. But like Ziggler, he needs more personality, or someone to be his personality while he stands in the background and functions as a wrestling machine.

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I don't even think that many people are just straight shitting on this show. There are some negative reviews, but most not-all-glowing reviews include some pretty clear criticisms of the structure of the HIAC and of Ambrose's booking, which I think are fair. 

 

Some people are really invested in shouting down the criticism, which is sort of odd to me. I think this show is like most WWE shows; generally solid wrestling and questionable booking. I don't know what WWE has done in the past ten years to make people have faith that they'll get the end result right. From the time they should have pulled the trigger on RVD back in 2001 on, they have been more likely to whiff on strapping a rocket to the guys on the cusp of getting over in a big way than not. The even-stevens booking also doesn't inspire confidence. I'm more than ready to be proven wrong, but I suspect that Bray Wyatt and Dean Ambrose trade wins back and forth for a few weeks.

 

Speaking of Bray Wyatt, there was a moment - right after he beat Bryan cleanly on PPV at the Rumble - where they should have protected him from Cena and figured out a way to get the belt onto him in the summer. The crowd really believed in the Wyatts. Now, they're stuck rebuilding him after the Cena and Jericho feuds, and they have chosen to do it against a guy who badly needs to win his next feud or two to keep momentum. I think it's fair to question the company's choices when you take a long view of how the year has gone. The Bryan and Reigns injuries hurt, and you can't criticize the WWE for stuff that's out of their control, but what was in their control was having Cesaro and Bray protected enough to step into those spots. 

 

EDIT: Anyway, what hurt this show and made it probably the least effective PPV of the year from a match standpoint was giving Cena/Orton about ten minutes too long and lopping time off Cesaro/Ziggler and Paige/AJ. Re: The former, even if you think that having Ziggler win in two straight falls was a nice way to switch things up, that first fall was incredibly rushed and really hurt the match overall (even though I quite enjoyed it). 

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On Cesaro:

Where should he be right now, exactly after his Battle Royale win? This is a legitimate question.

A face and right in the mix to potentially be in line at a title shot at Lesnar, probably in Zigglers spot right now. Certainly not a mid level heel, when the crowd was ready to cheer him.

 

 

That was a WrestleMania and post-WM crowd that cheered from him that are completely different from every other WWE crowd. That should be factored into the discussion.

And he's essentially at the spot where you'd like him at right now, just a heel as opposed to a face. Is it THAT objectionable?

 

There are also more worthy candidates in line against Lesnar: Cena, Orton, Rollins and Reigns when he comes back. Three of those guys are as good as Cesaro in terms of work (and Cesaro's excellent) and Reigns has had the narrative push for two years.

 

 

Cesaro is the hero of the IWC who loves stiff working Euro guys.  That says it all.

 

In the eyes of the IWC he should be headlining major PPV's, no matter what they buyrates.

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Cesaro also isn't a great promo. They put him in with Heyman, probably the best manager of all-time, and it didn't click. That factors in, too.

But how long did they give it to click? It didn't seem like Cesaro was a Heyman guy for long, and they just ended it so abruptly and as an afterthought. Plus, when you put him in that situation, he has to start winning over everybody in convincing fashion or the tutelage of Heyman is wasted. They really blew that all the way around. Not sure that's on Cesaro.

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This discussion makes me want to get a group of people to read Raw and PPV threads like they were wrestling shows where the people who liked and disliked the show were the faces and heels, arguments are matches, and >4 paragraph posts are promos, then critique the threads like we do the WWE shows.

I bet the arguments would look exactly the same.

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Cesaro is entertaining in some of the videos he does where he interviews people. I don't buy that Cesaro isn't a great promo just yet...I think that his accent is going to discourage the company from giving him a chance in this area.

 

Even so, I don't think you waste a guy that can clearly get over with just his work in meaningless midcard feud after meaningless midcard feud. He's a guy that should be stepping in and getting spot main events on B-PPVs at the very least to help the champ transition between feuds. We need more one-and-done month-long feuds where a guy is just the contender after earning it, gets his shot, and moves on afterward. 

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On Cesaro:

Where should he be right now, exactly after his Battle Royale win? This is a legitimate question.

A face and right in the mix to potentially be in line at a title shot at Lesnar, probably in Zigglers spot right now. Certainly not a mid level heel, when the crowd was ready to cheer him.

 

 

That was a WrestleMania and post-WM crowd that cheered from him that are completely different from every other WWE crowd. That should be factored into the discussion.

And he's essentially at the spot where you'd like him at right now, just a heel as opposed to a face. Is it THAT objectionable?

 

There are also more worthy candidates in line against Lesnar: Cena, Orton, Rollins and Reigns when he comes back. Three of those guys are as good as Cesaro in terms of work (and Cesaro's excellent) and Reigns has had the narrative push for two years.

 

 

Cesaro is the hero of the IWC who loves stiff working Euro guys.  That says it all.

 

In the eyes of the IWC he should be headlining major PPV's, no matter what they buyrates.

 

I LOVE Cesaro, too. He's one of the best. I even once performed a comedy show with him. (Another story.) But I don't think he should be in that spot quite yet.

Maybe they should have given him more time with Heyman. I'll buy that as a criticism.

They also had Cesaro put over Swagger who put over Rusev -- a guy they've given a jet-pack to. And that's not a bad thing. Rusev's great.

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Rusev flying around in a jetpack is gonna hit the Cena wall come about Wrestlemania.

 

I don't think Cesaro's ready for a PPV main event yet, but he needs some momentum to head him in that direction. If you're not pushing guys to the best of your ability toward being stars, what do you even have them around for? WWE needs all the stars it can create.

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I actually think with the B-PPVs being worthless now that they're all on the Network, this is the time to actually try out some guys in those spots to see what happens. Cesaro was a popular, important part of the Elimination Chamber match this year. Now that he's done it in multi-man, would it hurt to give him a shot against Cena on a B-PPV and see how it goes? 

 

I feel this way about Dolph Ziggler, too. I don't like him, but the crowd loves him. I honestly think they are missing out on an interesting B-PPV main event by not running Lesnar/Ziggler champion vs. champion. A twelve-minute match where Ziggler dies a thousand times but hangs on as long as he can before finally getting F5'ed would do more for him than the IC title ever could. Then, the crowd believes in him when you float him into the upper mid-card or even a rare main event spot once you run up against the injury bug and need someone to fill a spot in a pinch. 

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