Confessions of a wrestling fan

[Cristobal]

Fuck, Angle picked up a lot of his worst habits from Shawn.

Had no idea Shawn did that many steroids.

I mean, everything else under the sun, sure, but the juice?

[Skeeball Wizard]

Honestly the Shawn hate kind of baffles me. I usually don't get into it with people here because it's been done to death and I think everyone is just over it.

For me personally, and for a few others who I have had the discussion with, the Shawn hate comes a lot more for his gimmick than his work. I can watch him and recognize that he is great in terms of the mechanics of wrestling, but his dancing pretty boy antics were just cringe worthy, especially as he got on in years. For that I can not count myself an HBK fan.

[offspring515]

If Brian and I agree, that makes a pretty strong voting bloc.

You're expecting me to take the opinion of a Lions fan seriously? As a Lions fan myself I just can't do that.

[Fuzzy Dunlop]

Re: the Misawa mentions, I didn't not like him, I just preferred Kobashi and Kawada. Kawada in particular was my dude and, as mentioned, there's just something about a bad to the bone motherfucker who just came up short against Misawa but kept on coming back.

 

I legit thought Carlito was going to be a huge babyface star and potential Wrestlemania main eventer but looking back, I can't for the life of me recall why I thought that. My memories of him are kinda hazy but I mostly remember his unmotivated dogshit periods when if he didn't care he Did. Not. Care. But there had to have been something there for me to think he'd be a somebody. Or maybe I was just a fucking idiot.

 

Goldberg was fucking awesome.

 

King Bookah winning the World Title is legit one of my all time favourite title wins. 

[Sky Blue Sam]

Going through an old box of tapes the other day reminded me of the fact that circa 2003-2005 I absolutely loved CZW, and would still rather watch them than RoH, PWG or any of the other big indies from that time. You can keep Danielson, Joe, Aries etc and give me Trent Acid, the Messiah and Ian Knoxx (who I was certain would be huge). Heck, the fact that my local indy is running a joint show with CZW in October delights me, even though I've not kept up with them in 8 years, and the only name I've seen before is DJ Hyde.

[Sky Blue Sam]

Also, I own a Eugene t-shirt that I still wear

[RandomAct]

Preemptive confession.  I am going to where the fuck out of my Tomohiro Ishii "Stone Pitbull" shirt when it arrives.  All up in public and shit.

[Tromatagon]

I keep it real so I will wear wrestling shirts in public. But I only own really fucking cool ones

[NintendoLogic]

Fuck, Angle picked up a lot of his worst habits from Shawn.

Actually, Angle picked up his worst habits from Benoit.

[jstout]

 

Honestly the Shawn hate kind of baffles me. I usually don't get into it with people here because it's been done to death and I think everyone is just over it.

For me personally, and for a few others who I have had the discussion with, the Shawn hate comes a lot more for his gimmick than his work. I can watch him and recognize that he is great in terms of the mechanics of wrestling, but his dancing pretty boy antics were just cringe worthy, especially as he got on in years. For that I can not count myself an HBK fan.

 

I think the Shawn hate is because he's overrated as a worker. Kinda like Angle. There's a lot of people who think both are great workers, but it doesn't hold up upon scrutiny. They're both good, but not in the discussion of the greats in the U.S.

[Matt D]

Frankly, I think it's a little bit valuable for there to be a note about this, because there are valid criticisms and it takes a different mindset than a lot of people coming to the board for the first time have really experienced, but it's something we just go over every few years. I wouldn't mind starting a note and raising some points, but like I said, we've been through it so many times, I'm not doing it unless Phil comes in here and basically says "fine, go do it."

[Spritenaut 32]

Is there any reason to do that sort of thing?  I generally find these "we have a difference of opinion, so of course you are completely wrong" debates tiresome.  There are some very valid criticisms of Michaels as a worker.  But....  Matt D or whoever can go through Michaels shortcomings point by point and my response will be probably be "Meh.  HBK entertained me almost every time out."  'Cause he did.  I think Michaels was mostly a good to great worker, good on the mic, had a lot of charisma, and I usually liked his character(s).  That's enough to make him one of my favorites.  Whether he is objectively one of the best ever, I neither know or care.

 

Honestly, I'll worry about whether your taste in fake fighting is better than my taste in fake fighting when I have to fight you for the remote.  Until then, I'll probably enjpy whatever I enjoy.

[Matt D]

It's not about better. It's about understanding. People come in about three times a year and go "HOW CAN YOU POSSIBLY FEEL THAT? You're trolling!" because it's a dogmatic view on a lot of the rest of the internet.

[Lamp, broken circa 1988]

I think my problem with Misawa and Kobashi is that they're completely unrelatable. Misawa's projected personality is of a meticulous, taciturn bore who pulls his pants up the same way every time he has to pull up his pants. He just happened to have the physical gifts that made him dominant. Kobashi is basically Goku, a super-strong dweeb who has to power up to even pointier hair at which point he shows some brand new stupid thing he can do and magically that's the key to victory. Flashy, but a pretty repetitive story.

 

Kawada and Taue are just gritty dudes in comparison. Like, Taue's figured out how to turn starting shit into a full-time career so to him it's a job and not some super fancy bullshit competition. He's going to do like three moves until you stop standing up. Kawada's like some aging idealist, but he knows too much about how the world can treat a man so he just shitkicks people and doesn't let up. Like, every time he has some "new move" it's out of necessity and not creativity (ganso bomb, impact straight). Then it works, so he remembers that it works and tries it again. To me Kawada and Taue feel like they're actually fighting people, and (young) Misawa and Kobashi feel like they're acting.

 

Anyways, enough reading too much into wrasslin' and onto my shame.

 

I bought payperviews and floor tickets for a smackdown taping exclusively because of and specifically to watch Mr. Kennedy.

[odessasteps]

I didnt appreciate V1 Shawn because i knew what a humongous jerk he was outside the ring and so never really took a shine to his in-ring work.

[Jiji]

While Kawada wasn't completely innocent of this, Misawa and Kobashi were absolutely guilty of wrestling an unsustainable style with their increased head dropping and busting out new and more dangerous moves. They introduce a killer move, it wins them the big match, the next time out, their opponent kicks out at 2.9 and they have to hit it again or debut another move. It was an arms race in terms of moves that worked against and eventually destroyed the long-term sustainability and nuanced storytelling of post-Riki Choshu invasion All Japan the best in-ring company up until the tag match of '95. Kawada was the best of the bunch at selling and telling a story in the ring and that's what's most important in my opinion. Misawa was like the straight line that did anything and everything to win, which is great, but doesn't exactly build up a sense of attachment on the audience's part. 

 

We need to get on the remedial Jumbo tip sharpish. I think he's much more down Matt's alley because of his exquisite psychology and selling.

 

Also, more shame: I'm still working on trying to "get" lucha libre. There are certain matches where it will click and everything is jazzy and then there are other matches like Virus vs. Fuego that just hurt my head. The over-the-top cooperation makes it hard to suspend my disbelief. A friend and I watched the '97 cibernetico match that's #1 on the DVDVR best of the '90s results and were left confused and bored.

[Matt D]

I generally liked the Jumbo I saw in AWA.

 

Also, lucha took a bit, but I'm feeling pretty good about it. I am not feeling good about the fact that if you google "Negro Casas" "Rush" you get my stuff on the first page of results. That should not be. I am starting to get it but not THAT much.

[offspring515]

It's not about better. It's about understanding. People come in about three times a year and go "HOW CAN YOU POSSIBLY FEEL THAT? You're trolling!" because it's a dogmatic view on a lot of the rest of the internet.

I do hope that's not the vibe you're picking up from me. I understand your take on Shawn very well as a poster here and a PWO lurker. I don't think you're trolling at all. I don't agree with you, but I think your opinions are genuine.

[Matt D]

 

It's not about better. It's about understanding. People come in about three times a year and go "HOW CAN YOU POSSIBLY FEEL THAT? You're trolling!" because it's a dogmatic view on a lot of the rest of the internet.

I do hope that's not the vibe you're picking up from me. I understand your take on Shawn very well as a poster here and a PWO lurker. I don't think you're trolling at all. I don't agree with you, but I think your opinions are genuine.

 

Not at all, no. It's much more of a general comment. I think you see the new people wander in from other parts of the internet, especially the influx of younger posters we get now and again and it's a brand new and hugely outlandish thought to them, and for that sake, it would be helpful to have something like the Angle vs Henry note from the old board to still exist.

[Brian Fowler]

Man, I wish I saved some of the stuff I wrote in that one thread about Henry and, especially, about MOVEZ~!

 

Mostly, I think heel HBK was generally quite good and often great (nearly every 21st century match of his I like has him taking the heat segment instead of selling for the whole match) but was generally absolutely insufferable as a babyface (and I don't just mean his character) outside of some really good matches in 95 and 96.

[ChesterCopperpot]

A chick hooked up with me once purely because I was wearing Miz's  "Hello, I'm Awesome" shirt. I woke up the next morning and she had gone - and she took the shirt

[Brian Fowler]

A chick hooked up with me once purely because I was wearing Miz's  "Hello, I'm Awesome" shirt. I woke up the next morning and she had gone - and she took the shirt

 

That...  That....

 

Huh

[Yo-Yo's Roomie]

I had those Shawn Michaels criticism threads in my favourites list (actually, still do, but obviously there's nothing there now). Really good reads. The WON HOF folder over at Classics is what really got me thinking differently about wrestling, and challenging conventional wisdom. That's really a different topic though.

[Spritenaut 32]

I bought payperviews and floor tickets for a smackdown taping exclusively because of and specifically to watch Mr. Kennedy.

 

Dude!  People have confessed to some heinous things in this thread, but... my god, what kind of monster are you?

 

Also, I would have bet money that I'd never see Kenta Kobashi compared to a Dragon Ball Z character.

[supremebve]

We need to get on the remedial Jumbo tip sharpish. I think he's much more down Matt's alley because of his exquisite psychology and selling.

 

Also, more shame: I'm still working on trying to "get" lucha libre. There are certain matches where it will click and everything is jazzy and then there are other matches like Virus vs. Fuego that just hurt my head. The over-the-top cooperation makes it hard to suspend my disbelief. A friend and I watched the '97 cibernetico match that's #1 on the DVDVR best of the '90s results and were left confused and bored.

I'm all for the Jumbo remedial, and I also have no understanding whatsoever of Lucha.  It really just looks like dudes doing moves without any transitions, and no selling whatsoever.  I've tried to watch some and it never holds my interest.