AUGUST WRESTLING DISCUSSION

[Petey]

I wouldn't just trust Jake Roberts's claim that Watts not wanting to pay him was the big reason that he left.

 

Also, I enjoy the hell out of Watts-run WCW. Even stuff that seemed dumb to me as a kid like the no-top-rope-moves rule (which is still kinda dumb) made for some fun spots in matches. Rick Rude was great at using that rule to cheat effectively in particular. I also loved Ron Simmons winning the gold, even if Watts then booked him against scrubs, Goldberg-style, rather than actually having him beat people of consequence.

 

He wasn't WCW's savior financially and never would have been, but from an aesthetic/entertainment standpoint, I could watch 1992 WCW all day every day and be pretty happy.

 

Kip Frey also actually had some fun stuff during his brief WCW leadership. 

 

I know Bischoff pretty much has to be the best booker that WCW had, but who would the worst be? Jim Herd? Ric Flair? 

I don't know who booked WCW during the first half of '92 (was it still Dusty?) but I prefer Kip Frey to Watts. I didn't realize until recently that Frey was in charge for about the first six months of '92 which is when the bulk of the Dangerous Alliance stuff was happening. Loved that WCW era.

 

Also, didn't Flair have a significant booking influence when Dusty left in '88 and also in '94 until Hogan showed up? 1989 NWA/WCW and 1994 WCW pre-Hogan were both outstanding.

[sydneybrown]

Jake was drugged up and not very effective at the time. I don't have any issue with Watts getting rid of him at the time. Most of his other decisions were bad though.

 

Jake did the TV taping after Halloween Havoc, then missed every house show date after that, so Watts fired him for breach of contract.

[SirSmUgly]

Yeah, actually I guess you would probably say Bischoff was the head of a few guys helping him book. Same with Flair in 1994, who IIRC was part of a committee.

 

Actually, I wonder if there is a dependable list of WCW bookers from 1988-2001 because who was booking what becomes convoluted in a few places (post-Russo the second time around, after Watts but before Bischoff came into control, etc.)

[Cobra Commander]

WCW dove so hard from January 1999 to the summer of 1999 and most of that is with Nash as a booker. They didn't just do the fingerpoke, it also fucked over multiple top faces, such as WCW face authority figure Flair.. then the fingerpoke really didn't lead to anything that lasted when they turned Flair and Hogan by March.

 

Not sure if this makes it past Hogan's creative control, but could have had Flair strip the belt from Hogan due to the whole FPOD ending. Then have a 16 man tournament, keep Goldberg out of the finals (double DQ or some schmozz) and then have the title match at Superbrawl.

 

Russo took a floundering fed and did stuff, unsuccessful stuff, but stuff. Nash took a fed that was close to the WWF in ratings, and guided it towards a huge drop in its audience.

 

It's the difference between a bad manager who got a bad team and did badly, and a manager who got a good team and turned them into a worse them.

[cool arrow]

Yeah, actually I guess you would probably say Bischoff was the head of a few guys helping him book. Same with Flair in 1994, who IIRC was part of a committee.

 

Actually, I wonder if there is a dependable list of WCW bookers from 1988-2001 because who was booking what becomes convoluted in a few places (post-Russo the second time around, after Watts but before Bischoff came into control, etc.)

 

IIRC it was Ole between Watts and Bischoff.

[Big Fresh]

Leprechaun: Origins is a hit!

 

www.ign.com/articles/2014/08/27/leprechaun-origins-review

 

....but not really.

[Big Z]

WCW dove so hard from January 1999 to the summer of 1999 and most of that is with Nash as a booker. They didn't just do the fingerpoke, it also fucked over multiple top faces, such as WCW face authority figure Flair.. then the fingerpoke really didn't lead to anything that lasted when they turned Flair and Hogan by March.

 

Not sure if this makes it past Hogan's creative control, but could have had Flair strip the belt from Hogan due to the whole FPOD ending. Then have a 16 man tournament, keep Goldberg out of the finals (double DQ or some schmozz) and then have the title match at Superbrawl.

 

Russo took a floundering fed and did stuff, unsuccessful stuff, but stuff. Nash took a fed that was close to the WWF in ratings, and guided it towards a huge drop in its audience.

 

It's the difference between a bad manager who got a bad team and did badly, and a manager who got a good team and turned them into a worse them.

 

In hindsight, the wheels were falling off well before the beginning of 1999, even if the numbers were yet to show it. Now, you could argue that if they moved deserving young guys like Jericho, Eddie, Benoit, and Rey among others up the crowd and slowly cycled away from the high-priced but past their prime vets, it could have changed momentum in time. Also, if Goldberg had to lose and drop the belt, it should have been DDP or maybe Sting winning and not Nash. 

 

To open another can of worms, I actually disagree with the universally held opinion among industry members that no one will ever challenge the WWE again. I generally defend the WWE and still enjoy their product far more then most around here (primarily due to good ring work and characters I personally enjoy), but also believe there to be enough differences to exploit to make a legitimate second mainstream company. Now, this company cannot be WWE-lite like TNA has been for most of their existence, and must focus on areas the WWE has not/likely will not focus on (cruiserweights, tag teams, mature storylines). Also, while I feel that a HHH led WWE will recruit a more diverse looking roster, there are still many talented wrestlers that will not get a real chance there for whatever reason.

[Victator]

Kevin Sullivan was booking for WCW during its most successful period. 

I have no idea how Flair would be considered worst. Anytime he had the book, the ratings were up and the TV was better. 

[Vincey Greene]

I actually think a REAL Southern fed, with a few carefully selected WWE castoffs - Drew McIntyre perhaps, maybe Lashley when TNA stops wanting to pay him - and AJ Styles, but mostly new faces and general Dusty/Crockett style booking could absolutely work if financed properly and not presented as WWE². The issue there is getting that window of opportunity in the first place. No matter how much WCW was stupid, in the Carolinas, Georgia, etc WWF was never the favorite.

[Playa Shunna Ver 3.0]

Kevin Sullivan was booking for WCW during its most successful period. 

I have no idea how Flair would be considered worst. Anytime he had the book, the ratings were up and the TV was better. 

Not sure about Flair's numbers, but it seems like he was not to popular as a booker to the boys in the back.  

[nofuture]

 

To open another can of worms, I actually disagree with the universally held opinion among industry members that no one will ever challenge the WWE again. I generally defend the WWE and still enjoy their product far more then most around here (primarily due to good ring work and characters I personally enjoy), but also believe there to be enough differences to exploit to make a legitimate second mainstream company. Now, this company cannot be WWE-lite like TNA has been for most of their existence, and must focus on areas the WWE has not/likely will not focus on (cruiserweights, tag teams, mature storylines). Also, while I feel that a HHH led WWE will recruit a more diverse looking roster, there are still many talented wrestlers that will not get a real chance there for whatever reason.

 

 

The only way a promotion will be ever be able to compete with the WWE is if it's a major TV network owned promotion that's going to throw a lot of money and resources into it. 

[Tromatagon]

Even then I feel like WWE would really need to fuck something up bad to lose fans and have them jump

[SirSmUgly]

Even then I feel like WWE would really need to fuck something up bad to lose fans and have them jump

 

I think the idea would be less about taking fans from WWE and instead about recapturing those WCW fans that never came back once the promotion went out of business.

 

I think a Southern-style promotion on something like CMT could make a modest profit for the promotion as long as it used TV to do good business on house show loops around Southern towns. 

[Tromatagon]

All of those fans are so old they don't demographically matter

Sorry bros

[Petey]

 

WCW dove so hard from January 1999 to the summer of 1999 and most of that is with Nash as a booker. They didn't just do the fingerpoke, it also fucked over multiple top faces, such as WCW face authority figure Flair.. then the fingerpoke really didn't lead to anything that lasted when they turned Flair and Hogan by March.

 

Not sure if this makes it past Hogan's creative control, but could have had Flair strip the belt from Hogan due to the whole FPOD ending. Then have a 16 man tournament, keep Goldberg out of the finals (double DQ or some schmozz) and then have the title match at Superbrawl.

 

Russo took a floundering fed and did stuff, unsuccessful stuff, but stuff. Nash took a fed that was close to the WWF in ratings, and guided it towards a huge drop in its audience.

 

It's the difference between a bad manager who got a bad team and did badly, and a manager who got a good team and turned them into a worse them.

 

In hindsight, the wheels were falling off well before the beginning of 1999, even if the numbers were yet to show it. Now, you could argue that if they moved deserving young guys like Jericho, Eddie, Benoit, and Rey among others up the crowd and slowly cycled away from the high-priced but past their prime vets, it could have changed momentum in time. Also, if Goldberg had to lose and drop the belt, it should have been DDP or maybe Sting winning and not Nash. 

 

To open another can of worms, I actually disagree with the universally held opinion among industry members that no one will ever challenge the WWE again. I generally defend the WWE and still enjoy their product far more then most around here (primarily due to good ring work and characters I personally enjoy), but also believe there to be enough differences to exploit to make a legitimate second mainstream company. Now, this company cannot be WWE-lite like TNA has been for most of their existence, and must focus on areas the WWE has not/likely will not focus on (cruiserweights, tag teams, mature storylines). Also, while I feel that a HHH led WWE will recruit a more diverse looking roster, there are still many talented wrestlers that will not get a real chance there for whatever reason.

 

The wheels started coming off as early as the fall of 1997. From Road Wild until Starrcade, they had absolutely nothing going on and it was just the same nWo dominance almost every week. It got tiring and at times, depressing. When I was 10, I didn't notice it and kept patiently waiting for Sting to beat Hogan. But when I re-watched things a few years ago via Classics on Demand, it became apparent that even when WCW was on top, things were getting bad, especially in comparison to what the WWF was doing during the same time period.

 

 

Kevin Sullivan was booking for WCW during its most successful period. 

I have no idea how Flair would be considered worst. Anytime he had the book, the ratings were up and the TV was better. 

Not sure about Flair's numbers, but it seems like he was not to popular as a booker to the boys in the back.  

 

Yeah, because he was world champion when he was booker/a major influence and despite being the most logical and best choice to carry the belt, the boys felt he was just protecting himself.

[JohnnyJ]

I don't see a second company ever challenging WWE the way WCW did. WWE is what, 10 times, 15 times bigger than they were in the mid-90s. A startup could never take down a billion dollar company. They'd just go bankrupt trying.

 

That being said, while there are certainly instances of WWE slowly developing and cultivating a performer, there are also instances of catching lighting in a bottle.

 

You have to ask the question: could a Stone Cold, or a CM Punk or a Daniel Bryan happened somewhere else? Was it the machine that made them?

 

I see no reason why a well-booked startup promotion with good exposure and talent couldn't take off if booked around an "it" talent. (obviously easier said than done)

 

In the age of the internet and youtube with a wrestling viewing audience pretty plugged in, if something entertaining is happening people will find it. 

 

Of course, the fact that WWE is now signing the "it" indie guys who don't fit the mold makes it that much more difficult. 

[Web Conn]

When your booker or showrunner or general manager or in charge of peoples livelihoods in any workforce you have to conduct yourself with a bit of diplomancey not saying Nash or russo or Sullivan are diplomatic presences but Flair seems like a guy who doesnt understand this and is super quick to get defensive.

[Vincey Greene]

I don't see a second company ever challenging WWE the way WCW did. WWE is what, 10 times, 15 times bigger than they were in the mid-90s. A startup could never take down a billion dollar company. They'd just go bankrupt trying.

That being said, while there are certainly instances of WWE slowly developing and cultivating a performer, there are also instances of catching lighting in a bottle.

You have to ask the question: could a Stone Cold, or a CM Punk or a Daniel Bryan happened somewhere else? Was it the machine that made them?

I see no reason why a well-booked startup promotion with good exposure and talent couldn't take off if booked around an "it" talent. (obviously easier said than done)

In the age of the internet and youtube with a wrestling viewing audience pretty plugged in, if something entertaining is happening people will find it.

Of course, the fact that WWE is now signing the "it" indie guys who don't fit the mold makes it that much more difficult.

There's only one free agent who fits the It Guy role and nobody will pay CM Punk what it would take to get him back, I suspect. Nor should they.

[Go2Sleep]

You have to ask the question: could a Stone Cold, or a CM Punk or a Daniel Bryan happened somewhere else? Was it the machine that made them?

 

Stone Cold, probably not, just because the Vince feud was so essential to his character.

 

Bryan and Punk absolutely could've happened in a WCW-level promotion. They were already massively popular on the indies which gave them a strong foothold in WWE. The only difference between them being massively popular in the indies and being massively popular in WWE was their level of exposure. Those two just connect with fans and "get it" when it comes to wrestling. Outside of providing the platform due to being a virtual monopoly, WWE contributed very little as to why those two were successful.

[Beech27]

Not trying to troll, but could someone please explain what they mean when they say "Southern style wrestling"? What traits make it discernibly different from current WWE, and why exactly would it work? 

 

It just feels to me like a generic term for "I liked this thing when I was young, and other people will still like this thing now". You could paste any territory there, but it's always "Southern". Why not a "Portland style", or "Stampede style" fed? It certainly shouldn't be because of some imagined WCW fanbase that's just waiting around to be roped back in.

[ebbie]

Okay, so I will ask:

What does Cesaro bring to the table that Sheamus, Ziggles and a plethora of talent on the roster that can churn out great matches if told to do so?

Also, the Arrival match with Zayn.

So, if I don't fucking care how 'good' of wrestler is, like most WWE fans do, what does Cesaro do that draws in people? Like I said, good/great matches are a dime a dozen these days. But where's the drama? The intrigue? Internet fans don't seem to grasp that people need a damn reason to care other than "well, he's a good wrestler."

Being a strong dude who does strong things while there are other strong dudes who do strong things, but with much more presence seems kinda doomed to not have a very high ceiling. Mark Henry is probably the most injury prone wrestler ever, but he makes every bit of screen time his.

[mattdangerously]

There's nothing wrong with liking a wrestler just because he's good at what he does. Some people really don't need more than that. It's okay if you do.

[JohnnyJ]

I think some would argue that Cesaro has more presence than the other strong dudes who do strong things.

He has an interesting move set, looks good against a variety of opponents and his moves actually look like they hurt.

There is not an endless list of people you can say that about.

[Cristobal]

So, if I don't fucking care how 'good' of wrestler is

Then go ask people who feel the same way you do. If, as you assert, your views represent that majority, then it shouldn't be too difficult.

Meanwhile, what are you even doing here?

[Dre013]

Uh, Cesaro can wrestle...but there are plenty of good hands that never had the look, personality, whatever to get over and draw money. He needs to find a niche and will eventually be fine. Look isn't the issue, it's personality, mic work and ability to connect.