What is stopping former fans from watching WWE?

[LooseCannon]

If they ever decided the brand split was something that needed to come back, I think they should just embrace the idea of Smackdown as the B show and come up with an angle that banishes Punk from Raw and sends him to Smackdown.  I just doubt they are capable of making the shows stylistically different enough to push the idea of Smackdown carving out an identity as an underdog land of rejects.

[Domino_Not_Deuce]

 

 

Did the brand split create any main eventers (not guys who may have had one title shot, but guys who became long-term fixtures at the top of the card) who wouldn't have been in that spot without the brand split?

 

From what I've read, I think USA has always been against the brand extension.  USA has also been behind the permanent expansion of Raw to three hours, which killed any pretense of a brand split because of roster depth.

 

One thing I would considering doing is find familiar faces from the Attitude era who don't look too old and put them in the spot that currently seems to be occupied by guys like Sin Cara.  In a just world, Billy Gunn would be back on WWE television and jobbing to members of 3MB.

 

In my fair and just world, it's Chris Hamrick working 10 minute Superstars matches every week. I agree with that idea though, for a while, Bob Holly was around and was always good for a decent TV match. Wasn't there talk of a New Age Outlaws reunion and brief run for a while?

 

 

I loved watching guys like MVP, Shelton, Helms, the Mexicools, Rhino, etc. Miles ahead of watching Ryback squash someone no one gives a shit about

 

 

They should give Juvi another run under the conditions that he has a rail of coke before every match. Give him 15 minutes with a live microphone and see who he calls out then run that match until Juvi gets bored and runs away to Mexico with one of the Funkadactyls. Then turn that into an angle where Piscosis and Del Rio (back in the midcard after losing his title) drive around Mexico on lawnmowers and accidentally crash Super Crazy's wake. There's a solid month of TV right there. 

[JRV]

 

If I were to predict that Raw is going to end with somebody's music playing as they stand on the ramp staring down someone in the ring for an incredibly long and awkward amount of time, how likely is it that I'll be wrong? The writing is awful. It's shocking that the ratings are still as high as they are.

 

Looking at what draws and what doesn't, on TV in general, I don't think ratings have a lot to do with quality.

 

 

The best critcism of modern wrestling came from South Park, where they saw "wrestling" as people standing around and talking, not actually wrestling.

 

Which is a trite, worn out criticism usually made by non-fans who wouldn't enjoy it either way, whether there was more talk than wrestling (which there isn't) or whether WWE was some kind of promo-less environment and all programming was just entrances and matches.

 

Fantastic way of sidestepping both points and saying nothing at all.

 

That's bullshit, but let me elaborate. These are examples of two of the main fallacies in online wrestling criticism. The first point is an example of a typical criticism from someone who already watches wrestling, projecting their personal opinion on non-fans who don't watch and wouldn't watch if the writing were better. The second is a regurgitation of an age-old criticism expressed generally by non-fans who would absolutely not suddenly start watching if shows were 97% clean in-ring action and storylines/angles were strictly based on what happened during matches.

[Victator]

Raw regularly has twenty minute promo segments opening the show, That is way too much talking. 

[Petey]

Super Crazy died?

[Domino_Not_Deuce]

Super Crazy died?

 

This will all be explained. See, I have one person hooked already!

[Brian Fowler]

But, RAW opened with long promos and was almost all talking during the attitude era.  In fact, I would guess (and I'm not mookie, and do not have the numbers) the show probably has the same or even a slighter higher percentage of in-ring action now than it did in 1999.  Didn't exactly hurt the ratings back then.

 

Isn't it more or less a consistent that long matches on RAW lose viewers?

[RandomAct]

I think it's because people gave a shit about the people on their TV in 1999, so the promos didn't hurt anything.

[Victator]

I hated the long promos back then. Thought the shit was boring. But at least you had dynamic personalities talking. 

[RandomAct]

That's exactly how I felt about it.  But we had the option of changing to the other wrestling show back then, and popping back in a few minutes later.  Now, most people don't bother tuning back in.

[Victator]

That is a great point. I would watch Raw and watch the Nitro replay, but during the long promo and flip to Nitro, hoping there was a match. I remember more than once flipping back to Raw and saying "My god, are they are still talking?"Now I turn to something else and forget I was watching Raw in the first place. I usually just watch highlights on WWE's youtube channel. 

[Mookieghana]

But, RAW opened with long promos and was almost all talking during the attitude era.  In fact, I would guess (and I'm not mookie, and do not have the numbers) the show probably has the same or even a slighter higher percentage of in-ring action now than it did in 1999.  Didn't exactly hurt the ratings back then.

 

Isn't it more or less a consistent that long matches on RAW lose viewers?

I am Mookie, so I have some numbers.

I looked at a sample of RAWs from 1999 that I could get match-times for everything (32 shows).

Average show had 28 minutes 54 seconds of wrestling over 7.5 matches. (Three shows had less than 20 minutes and four shows had more than 35 minutes. Shows sampled had between 6 and 10 matches).

For a two-hour RAW (I'll ignore the overrun), that's 24% of the time that was wrestling content. (Granted, with commercials I think a one-hour show is something like 39-42 minutes of content.)

compare, I took a sample of 10-20 RAWs from 2000 to 2011 (210 RAWs total covering 1,504 matches) where I had match times for all the matches I'd listed for that RAW show.

Annual Averages

1999: 32 shows (28:54 minutes of wrestling average)

2000: 21 shows (30:58 minutes of wrestling average)

2001: 11 shows (34:36 minutes of wrestling average)

2002: 13 shows (29:23 minutes of wrestling average)

2003: 12 shows (32:15 minutes of wrestling average)

2004: 17 shows (33:13 minutes of wrestling average)

2005: 27 shows (32:46 minutes of wrestling average)

2006: 18 shows (28:33 minutes of wrestling average)

2007: 14 shows (32:22 minutes of wrestling average)

2008: 23 shows (32:21 minutes of wrestling average)

2009: 19 shows (34:18 minutes of wrestling average)

2010: 18 shows (31:38 minutes of wrestling average)

2011: 17 shows (33:22 minutes of wrestling average)

So, 1999 was nominally lower in terms of wrestling content than following years, but this could be due to some sample bias.

[LooseCannon]

If they took out all the backstage comedy and wackiness and replaced that with matches, but those new matches were all comedy matches so that the level of attempted humor in the show doesn't change, would that be an improvement?

[Patrick B.]

If a fan wants to watch wrestling, there are a LOT of options nowadays.  Gone are the times when you were limited to the wrestling shows on basic cable or whatever you could get via tape-trading.  There's something for just about every type of fan nowadays if you know where to look.  There were times in the past when it was WWF/E or the highway, but no longer.

 

I definitely qualify as an indy junkie and I'm fortunate to live in an area where there are about a half-dozen groups running within an hour's drive of me, so there are shows practically every weekend.  I'd rather go to those than most of the stuff under bigger banners; I haven't been to a WWE show in St. Louis in several years(meaning I passed on stuff like the Rumble and Raw 1000).

[Super Ape]

Philly used to be an Indy hotbed in the post-ECW era, but ROH has gotten too big for its britches stagnated, Lord knows what's going on with Chikara, and all that's really left if CZW and some hole-in-the-wall indies in NJ.

That's not to say I crawled back to WWE. Last time I tried to get back into it was that Raw where AJ proposed to CM Punk and the general manager computer sound rang and I just put MasterChef on the rest of the night. And to be honest, as much as I dig Daniel Bryan, I have zero faith that WWE won't screw this up like they did MiTB 2011.

[Ace]

That is a great point. I would watch Raw and watch the Nitro replay, but during the long promo and flip to Nitro, hoping there was a match. I remember more than once flipping back to Raw and saying "My god, are they are still talking?"Now I turn to something else and forget I was watching Raw in the first place. I usually just watch highlights on WWE's youtube channel. 

 

I skip even watching Raw in the first place and go to youtube.

[Brian Fowler]

 

But, RAW opened with long promos and was almost all talking during the attitude era.  In fact, I would guess (and I'm not mookie, and do not have the numbers) the show probably has the same or even a slighter higher percentage of in-ring action now than it did in 1999.  Didn't exactly hurt the ratings back then. Isn't it more or less a consistent that long matches on RAW lose viewers?

I am Mookie, so I have some numbers. 

 

Ah, my subtle suggestion worked.  I figured if anyone would, it was you.

[Jenalysis]

 

That is a great point. I would watch Raw and watch the Nitro replay, but during the long promo and flip to Nitro, hoping there was a match. I remember more than once flipping back to Raw and saying "My god, are they are still talking?"Now I turn to something else and forget I was watching Raw in the first place. I usually just watch highlights on WWE's youtube channel. 

 

I skip even watching Raw in the first place and go to youtube.

 

 

If I'm watching wrestling on Youtube- these days it's often old memphis stuff, not WWE.

[Big Fresh]

If a fan wants to watch wrestling, there are a LOT of options nowadays. Gone are the times when you were limited to the wrestling shows on basic cable or whatever you could get via tape-trading. There's something for just about every type of fan nowadays if you know where to look. There were times in the past when it was WWF/E or the highway, but no longer.I definitely qualify as an indy junkie and I'm fortunate to live in an area where there are about a half-dozen groups running within an hour's drive of me, so there are shows practically every weekend. I'd rather go to those than most of the stuff under bigger banners; I haven't been to a WWE show in St. Louis in several years(meaning I passed on stuff like the Rumble and Raw 1000).

Did you know I went to Raw 1000?

[Ramsey]

As a lapsed, casual WWE fan, I have to say I don't habitually watch anymore, but have come back for specific moments or matches. The Punk/Cena/MitB 2011 situation got me invilved again if only momentarily. Then I was alucky enough to randomly catch the great match those two had on RAW in February. The Shield and Bryan manage to grab my attention from time to time but this handful of guys simply isn't enough to keep me interested enough to watch full time.

 

Now, I should say that I've never been a "super fan" of the the WWF/E. Never purchased a PPV, haven't seen a live event since the late 80's, etc. I am a full blown wrestling fan, but the inherant silliness that started in the Hogan era was always a little too much for me. I was/am  a JCP/AJPW/Memphis/Texas type fan. Gritty and emotional was more my speed.

 

The WWE is still capable of producing some of the best wrestling in the world. Once again, Cena/Punk from 2011 was AMAZING and I love watching Bryan when he's given time to really work. I'll also say that, booked properly, I think Dean Ambrose could be HUGE. It's the crap they want tme to sit through to get to the good stuff that I simply can't stomach. Funkadactyls, the goddamn McMahons every ten minutes, Fandango, show opening promos going on for 20 minutes, the backstage nonsense with Maddox and Vicky...the list goes on and on.

 

I'm happy to buy blu-rays from the HUGE library Vince has aquired but I simply can't stomach the skits and bad attempts at comedy in the current product.

[Johnny Sorrow]

Back to the original question, If you watched Smackdown this past week and didn't totally dig it....you may just not like wrestling anymore. I can't imagine what could bring a fan back if he or she watched that show and didn't dig it.

[RandomAct]

You just reminded me that I meant to check out the Christian/ADR match.

[Buy Me a Burrito]

Wrestling will never be like it was when you were twelve. Get over it.

 

/thread.

[Hooker]

When I was twelve, the WWF had the likes of Sparky Plugg, Doink the Clown, Tatanka, and King Mable.  I don't want it to go back to that.

[Skelemania]

Back to the original question, If you watched Smackdown this past week and didn't totally dig it....you may just not like wrestling anymore. I can't imagine what could bring a fan back if he or she watched that show and didn't dig it.

I don't know, if you don't like the characters being heavily used on television, you won't enjoy it as much. Personally, I don't want to see Alberto Del Rio, or Christian, pretty much ever. That's just an example. Plus I just can't get over the feeling that Smackdown just doesn't fucking matter, at all, even a little bit. Anything of importance won't ever be on Smackdown. Half the time the matches that happen are just re-done on RAW anyway. If a story needs advanced, they'll do it on RAW. Smackdown is completely skippable.