[Remedial Wrestling] #1: Misawa/Kawada and Friends

[bucky]

Misawa and Kawada (especially Kawada) are two of the best sellers ever in my opinion, and I know I'm not the only one who feels that way. You're gonna be surprised when you see how different this is to whatever stuff made you weary of the head-drop and no-sell nonsense. This is prime era All Japan, not Okada vs Tanahashi.

[GOTNW]

Guys are going to be popping up. You just have to buy into the idea of "fighting spirit" to fully enjoy these matches. It annoys me when people try and bust on that term by the way.

Yeah, but a guy like Kawada won't magically forget to sell the headdrop, he will probably even sell it like total death, he will just do so in a more organic way instead of the Smackdown vs Raw move>fall down, which is a testament to his selling ability. Achieving that kind of "boxer falling down" feeling is something really special. I think a good example of that would be Misawa's final Elbow vs Hansen in his first TC win. Hansen sells it like death when Misawa hits him, Misawa takes his time to get to him, pins him and just as the ref makes the 3 count Stan starts regaining consciousness,realises what took place and gets on his feet. In a vacuum it's just a guy getting up right after the finish, but All Japan's workers were so good at making everything work in the context of the matches. So if Kawada gets dropped on his head and pops up, chances are he's gonna fall back down or get out of the ring and try to regain his composure rather than immediately hit a headdrop of his own.

[Pete]

Just to add to the discussion, I almost think Misawa vs. Kawada (10/21/92) could be added to the list. It adds to the back story for 6/3/94 for certain in my book. I'll share it here just in case.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ip9Kp6bxYSQ

 

There's also some serious historical value as it was

1. the main event on AJPW's 20th Anniversary show featuring
2. a "dream match" of tag partners facing each other.

[Goodear]

Hey all, I started working my way through this stuff this afternoon and got to the tag before THE MATCH as Rippa called it and was suffering from overexposure and needed a break.  Not to piss in the cheerios but I personally am finding the series to be a tad overrated.  

 

I think the selling which people are mentioning as a positive in this very thread isn't really all that great with lots of times where guys guys are 'fighting through the pain' so they can still hit their stuff.  Match Number 2 in the list had Kawada working over Misawa's elbow-throwing arm only to have him continue to throw elbows with no major consequence or any alteration in strategy.  Or the tag match where Kawada hurts his knee and no one tries to work it for 10 minutes before finally Kobashi does for one sequence and then its forgotten.  These are opportunities to integrate strategy.

 

And to me strategy is what these matches lack from a macro level.  What is Misawa trying to do to win?  What is his game plan?  Because it seems like he is there to do his thing and that's that.  This isn't 'grab a wristlock and work to an arm bar' either because I don't know what Kawada is trying to do either.  It just feels like the only way anyone wins these matches is because they out-willed the other guy that night.  But there is no reason demonstrated reason why the one guy's will was higher other than they got the last series of moves.

 

Fighting Spirit wasn't really an issue for me here and it really annoys me normally.  The guys at least seemed to register the strikes during exchanges which is all I really want.  The pop up and do a German suplex after taking one was on the down low too which is appreciated.  You can see why less-talented people stole the trappings of the style but didn't understand the nuances.  I'm not sure why Okada was the example of doing it wrong used since he was the closest to the proper way of doing the exchanges from what I saw.

[Matt D]

Alright, I watched Misawa/Kobashi vs Taue/Kawada, 6/1/93. For all intents and purposes, it was the first time I really saw any of these guys, at least in any way that mattered. 

 

I've got my notes spoiled. 

 

First, my takeaways though:

 

Taue was great. I really liked Taue. I get why people liked Misawa with the intensity of his hot tag comeback and the sheer energy in that flip over the top, flying elbow thing to the floor, and Kobashi with his selling as the FIP of sorts, and how he hits people a lot really quickly, and Kawada with the kicks and thuggishness and what not, but Taue mopped these guys up with his personality. He was the first one to break the sportsmanship and he had a way of just tossing guys around the ring like a dick whether it be across the ring or onto the top rope or onto the turnbuckle. There was just this sense of assholeness to him that I liked a lot. 

 

A lot of my early concerns were unfounded. When they backed away after an exchange and soaked it in for a second, for instance, it felt real. It felt like they just had this struggle and they needed a moment, not even to catch their breath but just to get their bearings since the near misses were so near and the danger was that tangible. Every copy of this that's ever been done almost completely misses that. There's a sense here that if they didn't stop than one of the two would make a mistake and give up an advantage and both knew it was in their interest to break and just figure out where the hell in the ring they were. I agree with Goodear that people stole the trappings but without a lot of the logic behind it which DOES exist here and is actually quite cool.

 

The fighting spirit stuff on strikes wasn't so bad. It'd usually be one person trying something for a while, the other one shrugging it off, then fighting back and then the first shifting gears. In general, I liked the immediate and medium term selling. Kobashi and Kawada had some great facial expressions in holds. They did a good job of building to holds, especially Kawada's which paid off pretty big when he finally got it on. On the other hand, the multiple chokeslams were sort of ridiculous. it would have been a little better if the top rope one had actually won the match, or at least damaged the opponent enough he couldn't break up the final fall or something, but that wasn't the case. I think there were four or five of them in the match. Maybe it's just like the AJPW equivalent of a snape mare or something? At one point Kawada comes in to do a kick to let Taue hit it and by that point i was well past the point of caring about it since I'd already seen three of them.

 

There were definitely gaps in logic in my mind, mostly with the Kobashi/Misawa team on when they'd interfere and when they wouldn't. I figured it was an honor thing at first but it just felt really inconsistent to me. He'd stand there as Taue knocked him off the apron and then he'd get back up and watch some more and then two times later, he'd watch again and then when Taue WASN'T trying to interfere, he'd rush in. It built to some really big moments, actually, but it made them feel a little more stilted and artificial to me.

 

I didn't like the first hot tag of sorts to Misawa (after the rolling cradle), because there wasn't really a narrative reason that he lost his advantage after he came in guns ablazing. Of course the bigger one was after Kawada's submission when he hit a bunch of big stuff and was super powered and what not but it kind of made me wonder why he didn't come in the first time like that after his partner got beat up for a good five minutes. That was ultimately a nitpick in the match though, because in a match this long some things like that just get sucked under due to the grand scheme.

 

The major problem is that it just went on and on and on during the finishing stretch. If the thing ended with the moonsault after the tandem DDTs or especially Kobashi's powerbomb with the flip pin, I think I ultimately would have loved the match instead of just being happily surprised with some parts of it and frustrated with other parts. It just kept going and going after that though with a sort of escalation i wasn't feeling at all, and I had actually been REALLY into it when Kawada tagged in after Misawa's flying elbow to the floor. I thought they were going to take the thing home there because it felt really right to me and they just didn't.

 

-Taue's personality

-Sense of struggle unlike everything that ever copied this ever. If they miss then they feel like they JUST miss. If they break away then it's genuine.

-Fighting Spirit stuff usually leads to some sort of frustrated cut off. They don't just go right back to it futilely.

-Facial selling on holds

-Lots of spot calling though.

-Taue is definitely a dick.

-Holds seem to matter. Kawada had some set up well early on by Kobashi rushing to the ropes. 

-Longish FIP on Kobashi

-Really constant motion though. Move, move, move. there is selling but it's just an onslaught. Sort of 20% longer than I would have liked before slowing it down and letting it breathe. Might just be a cultural thing or the lenght of the match.

 

-Lack of Hot tag here is frustrating. Misawa just sort of gets in after the rolling cradle, which felt like a big spot but ultimately didn't mean anything since it wasn't a very believable 2 count and Kobashi sort of just made the tag.

-Misawa came in fiery but then just got outbruted. Kind of disappointing on a narrative level. Made him look ineffectual. 

-Sense of struggle is nice though and it helps mitigate it.

-Kobashi comes back in pretty fresh. And they go right back to chinlock? 

-Kawada in and I like his over the top rope dump cut off. Kawada/Taue have the advantage, but why? Is it Taue's size? Kawada's grittiness? This is probably on me not being more familiar with them.

 

Taue dick - Suplex throw. Hot shot. First guy to go to cheap shots of sorts. Just tosses him out of the belly to back position. 

 

Kawada's submission is super dramatic, but a little silly that Misawa isn't just cutting it off when he got knocked off the apron by Taue already. It felt like such a killer move to set up earlier in the match and he's in it forever. Great hot tag though. 

 

The pissed off no selling is good but a little unbelievable considering how he looked before. What's different now? Sure effecitve though. 

 

- Ha Ha. Taue just comes in and whacks him. Glad the double submission isn't the finish since they sort of stumbled into it even if it was super heated. 

 

-Weird to me that they'd do things like have Misawa being so furious in his comeback but just have Kobashi stand there for the first time when Kawada comes in and then come in the second time. I just don't get the logic. It led to a hot tag but have him break it up the second time with Kawada there. 

 

-Misawa's flying elbow after the flip was a very cool moment. I get why people liked him but Taue's dickishness is way more fun. 

 

-engrossed about the time kawada came in. Sort of desensitized to Taue's chokeslam by this point though. 

 

-Kobashi's muppet face comeback is a bit jarring.

-Double DDT worked to set up moonsault but only a little since Taue was able to recover anyway. Was absolutely ready for the match to be over with the moonsault and then the power bomb (Kobashi).

 

-Too much. One too many momentum shifts with big moves. It became a chore. 

 

HA Taue's a dick.

 

Ok, getting bored as fuck by the finishing stuff. DDT and throw and duck and german and blah and blah and blah. They lost me.

 

Then the fucking top rope chokeslam doesn't end it.

Then the powerbomb choke slam combo doesn't end it.

 

Oh good, here's another chokeslam and Misawa's back up. And another powerbomb and thank god, this ended it.

 

EDIT 1: Reading up on the match a bit, there were definitely some moments that I wouldn't have picked up on due to lack of context (And this is a match I'm watching, in sort, to get context on other matches). For instance, Misawa's superman comeback, which I thought was both effective as a moment and troubling as part of the match as a whole mainly due to where it was placed and what surrounded it, was according to Peter from PWO: "the moment where he really established himself as the Ace. That one little moment, moreso than beating Hansen either time." I'm not sure if people believe that, but it was obviously, in a context I don't have, a far more special moment to him than it was to me. I figured he did that every match and it was just part of his hulk up babyface comeback routine like Piper being punch drunk or Blackwell being dead-eyed and frozen as he's getting hit. Likewise, Kobashi's rapid fire chops. I figured he kicked those out every match. 

 

EDIT 2: Obviously there were some normative things here (see: the finishing stretch and some of when the interference happened) which i didn't like so much or wasn't comfortable on a narrative level because my point of comparison was "every other tag match I've ever seen." i'm still getting used to such things in lucha as I'm learning to find my baseline there, but even so, when I feel like there are logical gaps, I'll be somewhat forgiving if I can fit them into the culture, but I'll still call them out. Here, I had no way or incentive to forgive since I had no point of comparison other than every other match i've seen my entire life, which  frankly doesn't contain a whole lot of AJPW.

[Goodear]

Guess I will also go match-to-match with this because why the heck not right?  I will try to keep things focused only on the match I'm watching and that happened earlier in the series so it doesn't get too muddied.

 

Misawa/Kobashi vs Taue/Kawada, 6/1/93

 

Taue thoughts because Matt focused on him a bit.  I can totally see how someone would look at him and see lazy execution especially considering the snug nature of Kawada and Misawa.  His strikes can really, really look like crap.  But after a while his 'I'm just going to throw you places' offense becomes the defining point of his character in these matches.  He's the big lummox.  I would actually like it more if the other guys played more defined roles at times.  He isn't overbearing or anything and lets the other guys take center stage which I guess was his job but he can sort of slip too far into the woodwork sometimes.  

 

Like I said and Matt reiterated, the fighting spirit stuff is way muted here.  Sure Kawada will stand there and absorb a strike or three from Kobashi but then he pays it off by slapping the crap out of his ear.  And Kobashi might come back but he does it by doing a bunch of strikes all over the place like a boot, chop, spin kick combination.  It tells you that Kawada is more precise but Kobashi can come back with variety and angles.  I would like Kobashi to focus more though, I think while Taue has maybe too few things that look good and goes back to them time and again, that Kobashi has too much stuff.

 

Taue doing lazy covers off a leg drop is kind of jarring in this context with the other guys cinching up all the time.  But I think its consistent for his character.  As is tossing an opponent to the floor.  I think it would be weird for Misawa to do that, but not for Taue.

 

One thing that I don't think I've seen mentioned about these matches is, for tag matches, ring positioning is not really emphasized.  I never really got a sense that the teams were really paying attention to where they were.  I mean they didn't do anything super stupid like Irish a guy into his own corner or anything but it wasn't ever made to be important either.  Also apron work was muted especially from Misawa who seemed to do an awful lot of standing there being stoic.  Which I know is his thing and all but it doesn't move me as a performance choice.

 

Chokeslam overkill is right. The first one doesn't even lead to a cover and instead Kawada goes for the stretch plum and it gets countered the first time.  They just don't protect the move.

 

I do kind of like the guy in the ring getting the first advantage when a tag is made.  The guy coming in has his head down and the guy in the ring is desperate to maintain the team advantage.  

 

The rolling elbow is a come to Jesus move.  Holy shit.  In addition, I have never seen someone hit a suicide dive and deliver a blow like Misawa.  Usually guys go through the ropes and push the guy back or maybe head butt them.  But Misawa uncorks the elbow out of the dive.  It's the bomb yo.

 

I also have to agree with Matt that the finishing stretch is too long.  It feels like its 15 minutes long and that's too long to maintain the momentum buzz.  It also seems like the wrong place to have a chop exchange between Kobashi and Kawada.  It would be won thing if that was the narrative of the match and Kobashi lost all of them leading to this one.  But he won the first one too so it doesn't work as well as it could have.  Again home stretch is so long its eternal.  Taue especially doesn't have the near fall stuff to make that work.  You can totally see how this became total bullshit when it got aped by less talented people.

 

Finish itself is a let down honestly.  I just can't put a finger on the why of Kawada and Taue won.  They managed to isolate Kobashi a bit at the end but it wasn't enough for me to go 'oh superior team work won out'.  Kobashi didn't come off as the junior partner here to me performance wise (like if he made some cardinal error or something) so I can't say that the other team picked on him.  It came off as one team was booked to win so they did and that doesn't strike me as a strong story.

[DMN]

As a guy who went from a WWF kid growing up to not really paying attention to wrestling while I was in high school (which, strangely, was the height of wrestling, the Attitude Era), to getting back into it with XPW on KJLA, then back into WWF/E, I'm going to jump in here and try to expand my horizons. What I know about stuff like the NWA, WCW, and such is mostly from WWE productions, and I caught some of the tail end of ECW, so I'm not a complete neophyte with wrestling, and I keep up with indy stuff, particularly the SoCal scene from like '99-00 on.

 

I've always been interested in puro, but never really knew where to start, so I'll dive into this stuff when I get a chance to sit and watch it, and let you know what I think.

[Goodear]

Kawada vs. Misawa (07/29/93)

 

When we talk about things taken from these matches and run into the ground by subsequent generations, streamers annoy me to no end now when they get trotted out for random midcard matches in ROH but they certainly add something when they appear in front of main event contests like this one.

 

The pace starts slow which is cool because they are feeling each other out not because they expect a new wrinkle but because they are wary of each other.  Kawada wards off an elbow, Misawa blocks a kick and its a nice deliberate exchange.  But I think we run into a problem at 6:55 when Kawada kicks Misawa dead in the throat and Misawa folds up like an accordion.  Now I'm not going to blame Misawa because fuck, he got kicked in the throat, but the match stops dead while he recovers.  Now, I don't know if this was a botch or what but Kawada for being as hungry as he should be does nothing but stand back and let his opponent recover.  Now the referee is motioning him to stay back but I believe he should have been chomping at the bit here and instead he decides the appropriate action is ... nothing?  It doesn't make sense in this context to me.

 

I will say again, no one throws the elbow like Misawa.  Every time he throws that mutha with bad mojo behind it.  Chris Hero is a pale reflection.

 

Kawada starts going to the elbow arm in retaliation and it makes sense to try to take that weapon away since he's probably been tagged with it enough times by now.  I'm generally a fan of limb-based psychology although its not the be all, end all.  I think the problem with it here was that it didn't effect Misawa other than flexing the joint after continuing to throw elbows.  I feel as though having to going to the one that brought you makes sense but there wasn't enough selling to make it really dramatic.  Maybe building a transition off the pain of throwing one or Kawada winning an exchange against elbow strikes would have done more to drive the plot point home.  Its things like that that take limb work away from filling minutes and turn it into important progression.

 

About 16:00 minutes in we get a good example of fighting spirit used correctly where Misawa backdrops Kawada but Kawada pops up to clothesline him in the back of the head.  Kawada sells the drop but its not a crazy bump so it makes sense for him to shrug it off long enough to throw a desperation lariat.  17:00 in and a strike exchange does a similarly good job of showing what the strike exchange meme can do, capped with a jaw jacking elbow from Misawa.

 

Misawa's frog splash looks like a ton of bricks falling on a guy but he uses two in quick succession so it sort of loses a bit of luster.  I'm amazed how much more over his mounted crossface is.  Did he ever beat anyone with that?

 

The pace here seems a lot more deliberate than the tag match.  Even though Misawa is uncorking some good stuff like the tiger driver, its doesn't have the same finishing stretch feel as the last match so you are left wanting more without burn out setting in.  I didn't feel like the match was in the home stretch until we were almost there.  Which is good.  You can crest way too early.

 

I think they went for an attrition home stretch with Misawa's tiger suplex, rolling elbow setting up Kawada sneaking in a tackle to set up the backdrop driver and jumping high kick.  But the transition from the high kick to these draining as shit Germans before finishing with a tiger suplex is kind of weak.  Sure you are selling the high kick as his last gasp but it fails in really showing you why it was so draining.  The Germans?  Sure they look like they are killing Kawada dead as disco and they put in another desperation tackle in there for Kawada but I just don't feel as the way they got to the suplexes was a great transition.  

[RandomAct]

Kawada vs. Misawa (07/29/93)

 

Misawa's frog splash looks like a ton of bricks falling on a guy but he uses two in quick succession so it sort of loses a bit of luster.  I'm amazed how much more over his mounted crossface is.  Did he ever beat anyone with that?

Yeah, I forget the date, but he submitted Jumbo Tsuruta with it in a tag match.

[Goodear]

Misawa & Kobashi vs. Kawada & Taue (12/3/93)

 

Match number three in our countdown.  I'm Casey Kasem and I'm sitting on a pop sickle.

 

Oh, too soon.

 

Misawa and Kobashi get out of the gate fast this time on Taue and get him in trouble with a bunch of quicker stuff like a double dropkick, a baseball slide and Misawa coming off the apron with the elbow smash.  This seems much sooner than previous matches to drop such big spots but it shows a willingness to deviate from the formula.  I would have liked to see some quick covers in this section but its a minor quibble.

 

They do a brief strike exchange but as normal with this series, its not just a goofy stand there and hit each other thing.  Taue tries to grit through some chops but can't.  Maybe he will be able to later, but not now.  Taue comes back on Kobashi with a clothesline and it illustrates his lack of striking proficiency.  As he doesn't so much deliver a blow as let Kobashi run into his arm.  He makes a tag and Kobashi and Kawada have an exchange that Kawada wins (which is what I would do since he seems the more proficient striker) but Kawada seems to hurt himself with a spinning pivot kick and tags back out.

 

A moment digression here.  I can get that this was a legitimate injury and may not have been in any way the plan going into the match.  But when Kawada hurts himself, it struck me as the time for Misawa and Kobashi to go after it.  They only do that after another ten minutes of action and it strikes me as inauthentic.  They are trying to win right?  We are treating this as an actual competition?  Then there is no reason to exploit a weakness.  This is the same issue that I had when Kawada kicked Misawa in the throat last match and I think this illustrates the same point.  I don't know how well these guys really adjust on the fly when things could change the plan.

 

Taue comes in and it goes into peril as Misawa and Kobashi go to work briefly before Taue comes back on Kobashi with some Baba chops and his chuckplex.  Kawada is back in and levels Kobashi with a lariat and locking on a stretch plum but seems a lot more limited in mobility to me.  Taue and Kawada heel it up with some beatings on the floor.  Kobashi is clearly being number 2 on his team today as he seems to be the one getting the worst of it for his team as Misawa beats in heads.  Taue just pounds on Kobashi for a while dropping him from heights onto things.  That's the Taue way.

 

Kawada comes back in and Kobashi finally goes to the knee to turn the tide... and I may have been wrong about my earlier points about the knee.  He wasn't favoring it as much as I thought he was the first time I watched this and only really reacts when Kobashi kicks it the first time.  Kobashi then tackles Kawada down and goes to town on the knee with punches in an effective 'I'm not proficient in working the knee, but I bet this hurts' kind of way.  Kobashi tags out and Misawa comes in with elbows and Tiger drivers flying but doesn't go to the knee.  Because he doesn't have to?  Kawada does come back a bit and manages to avoid the tiger suplex with a little help.  Taue is back in and its drops on stuff!  All the stuffs!  Back drop/Choke slam combination gets a two with Kobashi breaking it up and the chokeslam is way more protected here than in tag match number 1.  Much better job of not just going back to it time and again.

 

Kobashi gets back and DDT, DDT, DDT (well okay sure) before in a nice turn of fortunes, he drops Taue on the top rope!  Moonsault for two!  Taue comes back with judo chops and a hart attack clothesline before getting a limping Kawada back in the contest.  But his knee is crap and he can't quite get Kobashi up for a backdrop driver and Kobashi manages to escape to tag out.  Misawa is in and Kawada manages to get him with a German but can't hold the bridge because of his knee.  Kawada manages to get the plum on though and even Kobashi can't pry him loose before Taue pulls Kobashi away with a sleeper hold.  I really like this way of keeping on a submission in tag matches and would like to see it lifted into the modern setting.  Kobashi finally breaks loose and is able to save Misawa but it feels totally earned.

 

Misawa gets to his corner and Kobashi goes to the knee with a drop kick and half crab that he transitions into a cloverleaf.  Kawada is very effective at limb selling by the way.  I totally didn't watch this right the first time.    Kobashi misses a moonsault but still manages to keep Kawada from making a tag and getting Misawa back in to drop the frog splash hammer on the dude.  Tiger driver gets reversed but Misawa is able to hit the tiger suplex which gets him a close two.  Kobashi gets back in and eats a jumping high kick before uncorking a lariat.  They get stereo Germans in before Misawa bumps Taue out of the ring and smashes Kawada with a German release.  Taue is a way in the woodwork now as Kawada is taking a beating.  

 

Kobashi finally puts him away with a backdrop driver which was ... a bit anti-climatic?  I get that they nearly have to kill Kawada to finally put him down, but the danger here seemed a little one-sided as Kobashi and Misawa just crush the guy as Taue can't really make a difference.  I was totally wrong about the knee in the start of this review.  Totes wrong.  Mia Bad.

[Matt D]

Goodear, please feel free to press on. You're taking a very reasoned eye to all of this and while I want to give people a chance to follow a long a bit more interactively if they want to, it's okay that you're blazing forward and lighting a trail for us.

 

After doing some reading up on things, I find it hilarious that after the first match, the only guy I feel like I actively need to see more of is Taue, which isn't me trolling in the least, because I didn't know enough about this stuff to successfully troll. Now that I've doubled back and read up I just find that funny. It might just be that he had the broadest character work of the four by a large degree and that's a lot of what i look for in wrestling, far more than stiff strikes or workrate. 

 

I do intend to watch the next couple of matches this week though.

[Jingus]

Misawa & Kobashi vs. Kawada & Taue (12/3/93)

 

Kobashi finally puts him away with a backdrop driver which was ... a bit anti-climatic?  I get that they nearly have to kill Kawada to finally put him down, but the danger here seemed a little one-sided as Kobashi and Misawa just crush the guy as Taue can't really make a difference.  I was totally wrong about the knee in the start of this review.  Totes wrong.  Mia Bad.

Keep this match strongly in mind whenever you finally get to 6/9/95.  It's got more callbacks to this one than anything else.  

[Ryan]

Don't make me work your knee.

[Ramsey]

 

Misawa & Kobashi vs. Kawada & Taue (12/3/93)

 

Kobashi finally puts him away with a backdrop driver which was ... a bit anti-climatic?  I get that they nearly have to kill Kawada to finally put him down, but the danger here seemed a little one-sided as Kobashi and Misawa just crush the guy as Taue can't really make a difference.  I was totally wrong about the knee in the start of this review.  Totes wrong.  Mia Bad.

Keep this match strongly in mind whenever you finally get to 6/9/95.  It's got more callbacks to this one than anything else.  

 

It's good to keep this in mind when watching ANY AJPW involving the Big 4+1 as you'll see call backs, obvious and subtle, touching on stuff from as far back as the Jumbo-Tenryu feud.

[Curt McGirt]

 

 

The rolling elbow is a come to Jesus move.  Holy shit.  In addition, I have never seen someone hit a suicide dive and deliver a blow like Misawa.  Usually guys go through the ropes and push the guy back or maybe head butt them.  But Misawa uncorks the elbow out of the dive.  It's the bomb yo.

 

"Come to Jesus" cracks me up. It's true considering Hero said he could legit KO a motherfucker with it. The only guy with a better tope suicida is Santito and that's because of the full on headbutt and the speed he gets. 

 

This is making me want to go back and watch these matches, I think I might go play catch-up today if I can find everything stocked away cause I got no work and storms outside. 

[CSC]

Kawada vs. Misawa (07/29/93)

 

 

I think they went for an attrition home stretch with Misawa's tiger suplex, rolling elbow setting up Kawada sneaking in a tackle to set up the backdrop driver and jumping high kick.  But the transition from the high kick to these draining as shit Germans before finishing with a tiger suplex is kind of weak.  Sure you are selling the high kick as his last gasp but it fails in really showing you why it was so draining.  The Germans?  Sure they look like they are killing Kawada dead as disco and they put in another desperation tackle in there for Kawada but I just don't feel as the way they got to the suplexes was a great transition.  

 

To me, Kawada was completely drained after that rolling elbow and the three near-falls that he could barely kick out of.  At that point he just had the strength left to hit the backdrop driver and the kick, but without the reserves to capitalize on them, he was finished.  I wish he would have hit the kick immediately after Misawa got up instead of eating an elbow first to reiterate that any other punishment would put him down for good but that's just nitpicking.

 

That last tackle looked like a UFC fighter who's been knocked silly, comes to and is still trying to fight out of instinct but is no threat to anyone (as shown by Misawa being able to just casually kick him away.)

[Jingus]

The rolling elbow is a come to Jesus move.  

 "Come to Jesus" cracks me up. It's true considering Hero said he could legit KO a motherfucker with it.

Knock someone out cold, in a shoot, with a rolling elbow?  Oh man, there ain't enough LOLs in the world to shower Hero with in response to THAT carny bullshit.  Yeah, I guess it's theoretically possible, as long as 1.they've got the chin of Glass Joe, and more importantly 2.they stand COMPLETELY still and don't try to dodge or block or defend themselves in any way whatsoever.  You're literally turning your back on your opponent in order to do that move!  And it's nowhere near as fast as a top-speed spinkick (which, again, isn't something you'll often see in a real fight).

[Curt McGirt]

Okay, I found 7/29/93 on the external so here are my thoughts

 

Nice slow build with detached lockups and blocked moves, both guys are very wary of each other indeed. The psychology is clearly Misawa's elbow vs. Kawada's kicks. I dig how after Kawada Judo-throws him and kicks him in the back Misawa just kneels there and makes the slightest of grimaces to emphasize, "this hurts but I am not gonna let this prick know how much", then they just get up and stand there staring at each other for a second like gunfighters in a western. After the kick to the throat Kawada hangs back as if he wants to give Misawa time to recover in order to punish him more. Then after that weak shoulderblock that knocks him over you can see he was clearly hurt by that kick and they were buying time. He comes back with an elbow and a stiff-ass dropkick, then some more kicks with Kawada giving him time hanging by the apron. It works because Misawa is mauling him with every shot even though you know Misawa's hurt. Kawada starts working the arm with arm-wringers, an attempted kimura and a jujigatame in attempt to take out the elbow -- good strategy, though I bet they blow it off like most AJ limbwork. And sure enough, they resort to just kicking the shit out of each other though the selling by Misawa of the arm is awesome. The point of the match is that these guys both hate each other and it's not just not so much trying to be king of the hill and hold the belts as beat the other one up and grind him down. Around 19:00 Misawa hits an elbow that made me say "OH!" out loud as if I was the announcer... just brutal. Both guys are tremendous selling for each other during their respective submissions, peppering in mean hits between. Finally it appears Kawada has worn him down enough and starts hitting the big moves -- stuff powerbombs, a beautiful bridged German, and just flat-out punching Misawa in the face -- but it isn't enough, the elbow is the deciding factor and it will stop you in your tracks. Both men are damaged and desperate, with Kawada just tackling Misawa at different points to try and relieve himself from the onslaught. But Misawa has the advantage and just suplexes and suplexes and suplexes Kawada to oblivion. At the end you think Misawa wishes he was dead and think Kawada IS dead. 

 

A sticking point about AJPW to me is that if you are going to have matches with this level of stiffness, contest it like BattlARTS, let there be 10-counts instead of pinfalls. Of course Baba was old-school and that would never happen. Even just for Triple Crown matches it would be interesting and you would have the crowd counting along with the ref, plus the submission time-killers would have a little 'umph' to them if someone won with them at least once. 

[Curt McGirt]

If I recall correctly Hero was just talking about a straight up elbow from Misawa, he didn't say anything about a rolling one. I mean he took them before so he'd be a better judge...

[Ramsey]

 

 Even just for Triple Crown matches it would be interesting and you would have the crowd counting along with the ref, plus the submission time-killers would have a little 'umph' to them if someone won with them at least once. 

If I'm right, Misawa actually did get a submission victory with his crossface thing over Jumbo Tsuruta in a tag defense in 91. So, the move at least has a little drama attached by 93.

 

[Curt McGirt]

Didn't he win over Akiyama with it? Or Taue? If I recall when he debuted it it was a finish, then just turned into a regular spot. 

 

EDIT: Nevermind about Taue, I was thinking of the Tiger Driver '91 there. I know it was a finish first time out though

[Jingus]

That's true, but submission victories in AJPW (among the top guys, at least) were not a frequent thing.  In fact, they hardly ever happened even in 6-mans, let alone Triple Crown matches.  I guess their crowd just had such good memories, and were so loyal to the product, that they really believed that any one-time finisher was a potential every-time finisher.  

[Curt McGirt]

That's another sticking point with us foreign fans of All Japan vs. their audience, you know the submission is never going to end a match. At the same time if the wrestlers build it in right as a wear-down spot it can be effective. I remember seeing the '99 Kawada/Misawa with Kawada busting out the Stretch Plum and losing my shit (then again, that was probably the first time I'd ever seen both men in action ever and had no idea what these matches entailed). More of an issue is useless limbwork in the opening that has no effect and that's something New Japan can be guilty of too. 

 

EDIT: don't want anyone to think that was the first time he used that damn move haha. And after watching him do it in '93, the missing teeth are such a bonus.

[Matt D]

I have watched 7/29/93. It's a very good match. I like that you can pretty much draw a direct line through it. I'm sure others have done this but....

 

-They match off with Kawada getting the upper hand because he's fiercer or willing to go farther or stronger or bigger or what. He is hungrier, and every time Misawa gets a shot in or really scores a point, he comes right back with his own version of that point. I was generally okay with the long wait before the reset after the kick because 1) I don't think it was necessarily a slowing down of a pace. It hadn't picked up yet and 2) it was sort of a turning point to an extended heat segment by Kawada. 

-So we have the heat segment, with Misawa selling the arm and getting in a few hope spots. The best of them (and it's absolutely what it is) being when he gets pissed off at the lack of a clean break in the corner and erupts . He really takes over after the second power bomb reversal though. He does sell a bit in here too which is nice.

-He presses the advantage for a bit, including with the Tiger Driver and the grinding crossfaces. I'm okay with the kickouts for most of this match actually, except for one thing. 

 

Hear me out for an interlude here. They work so hard to loosen the other guy up so they can hit their big moves and then those big moves don't matter a whole lot. For example, Kawada takes back over after Misawa tries too damn hard to get the Tiger Suplex on. He goes for it three times and gets caught the third and later on he hits it and it means nothing. Now, obviously, he ends the match with it when he hits it AGAIN after the Germans but it makes him seem like a bit of a moron that he was working so hard to put a move on and he ended up sacrificing so much because he failed to get it on and it wouldn't have worked anyway! I like the idea of losing the guy up and that sense of struggle and it makes things really hit home when the opponent obviously has no struggle left, like with the finish, but maybe not to hit the first of three power bombs or whatever. The problem isn't the struggle (because obviously the opponent is fresher in the beginning. That's why I'm fine with the tiger driver not working for instance. It was the first big move of the match for Misawa), it's the repetition. 

 

-Anyway, like I said, the transition comes on the Tiger Suplex Attempt and leads in to the stretch plum attempts. It's a testament to the Japanese fans that they're so into something that never really ends a match I guess? It's worked like it means something but maybe I'd get desensitized over time? Anyway, we're fairly deep into the match at this point and it's pretty tight. Like I said Throughline. After a powerbomb kickout, we get the roaring elbow transition, which works really well out of Kawada's punch (he had a punch cut off earlier that was really pretty too btw). Again, it made more sense with that added momentum. Part of me wishes he'd gone for the tope after that, since he has a nice one and it would have been satisfying. So Misawa beats him a bit more, hits another elbow and goes for three pins. At the end, Kawada is up first and hits the dangerous backdrop. Misawa kicks out. They have another exchange which Kawada wins with another flying kick, and yeah, I'm with Goodear again (even if I wasn't entirely on the last point). Misawa is just randomly up first to hit all of his suplexes and win. It doesn't jive. There needed to be another narrative step. Even a moment of hulking up or something, just something to latch on to. I could almost buy it after the backdrop driver thing, because maybe it shocked him awake or something, but after the kick? 

 

That aside, it's a very nice match. It had some issues with the struggling and escalation since I think it doesn't entirely work in a narrative sense. I really hate the little kawada head hold kicks for some reason. I continue to be happily surprised with these matches, though, if only because there's a certain utility in the elements that I most dreaded. They make things feel organic that I never thought could feel that way. These matches are not without frustrations though, even if this one had less than the tag. I liked it a lot.

[Goodear]

Kawada & Taue vs Misawa & Kobashi from 5/21/94

 

I watched this and took notes this time as opposed to my usual mush mouth comments during play-by-play so this should be a bit more broad in scope than "and then Miswa hit an elbow!"  I mean play-by-play has its place and all but I'm not ready to do that here. 

 

So this match sees Kawada suck all the jerkiness out of Taue and use it for his own devices.  I almost said suck the dickyness but that seems too sexual for this context.  The good news is this gives Kawada another layer to his character this time out and makes him even more compelling a figure.  He is pulling hair in chinlocks and kicking people off the apron and all sorts of great stuff.  This performance would have fit in great in the first tag match.

 

The bad news is it left Taue as a husk of a man with no identity of his own.  Yes that is an exaggeration but boy did Taue just phone it in this match.  I don't ask him to be as crisp as the other three because that ain't going to happen.  But I do ask that he be active and bring his lummox attitude to stuff.  But here, Misawa would come into the ring to double up on Kobashi without Taue leaving the corner.  His execution is even worse than normal as he blows a couple of spots (most noticeably a corner bulldog thing) and even attacks the wrong knee after setting up a heat segment on Kobashi.  During the closing stretch, his spots stand out as poorly thought out as a dropkick and a powerslam at that time stand out as early match spots pulled out late.  Not a good performance.

 

Misawa stands out in terms of crispness of delivery and continues to impress by landing on guys with stuff like a ton of damn bricks.  The senton and springboard splash here are awe inspiring with the amount of impact on the landings.  The only thing that he does that does not look painful is when he tries for a turnbuckle counter elbow and Kawada kicks him on the way down.  Like they just weren't in tandem that one time.

 

Story of the match was starting to be a story about Kobashi's knee when Taue broke out an effective sequence outside the ring.  Kawada was really aces working the knee, pulling down the pad and stuff.  Kobashi's selling is intermittent but when he does sell it, like after he delivers a DDT and just starts punching at the joint, it can be really effective.  

 

I wish they would have gone home after the first moonsault instead of doing 3 of the things (all set up with a body slam by the way, which demonstrates something but what I don't know.  Spacing issues?)  The home stretch seemed as long as the one in the first tag match and didn't seem as though anything after the first moonsault was really required viewing.  Again as we have said a lot in these threads, you can see how this got blown out of proportion in lesser peoples' hands. From pros like this, its less bothersome.  

 

The fighting spirit stuff continues to be a pleasant surprise as to how muted it is and not just two guys throwing bombs at each other with neither selling anything.  

 

NOTES!

Kawada more of a dick here than in the past where Taue carried that load.  While it makes match a little more heated, it decreases Taue’s role somewhat and makes him stand out less.  

Kawada knocks people off the apron a bunch which was Taue’s thing.  Taue comes to be less effective as Kobashi and Misawa beat his ass.  

Kawada seems in love with the big boot here.  

Taue actually staying out of it as Misawa runs in on Kawada after getting kicked off the apron twice.

KAwada pulls the hair in a chinlock.

Boot caught and eats elbow.

slingshot plash looks good

Kick counter to springbaord back elbow does not

chuck plex

Akira’s strikes are shit

Kenta comes in to break up a submission and Taue does nothing.  KAwada takes him out and hits a senton.

toss into the corner, kick to the head is viscious

dah fuck was that shit in the corner?  Taue did not bring his a game

Kawada hurt his own leg again?

Kobashi to the outside.  Taue drops his knee on the table.  Squish and kick.

Seems odd that Misawa just lets it happen.

I think Taue forgot which leg he was attacking?  Lummox.

Kawada takes down knee pad.  Dick dick dick.  Or to help Taue tell left from right?

Misawa comes in to save and Taue still on the apron.  Is he sleepy?

minichops and lariat creates space but Kawada knocks Misawa off the apron.  

Another nice fighting spirit bit.

tag to Misawa

Elbow flurry rage.

suicide elbow!

tiger driver

tiger suplex counter to high kick

Taue rope drop, snake eyes counter to elbow, weird bulldog thing counter

Taue DDT but choke slam blocked.  big boot and shitty bulldog.  tag to Kawada

mini chops but can’t get the powerbomb.

stretch plum but quickly countered.  Fighting spirit strike exchange but every blow is registrered.  

Kobashi back in for multi chops.  Leg selling kind of gone.  

Taue flying boot.

chokeslam blocked

DDT nice leg sell punching leg

moonsault but my knee hurts

Misawa in and does stuff

back elbow works this time and its mounted crossface time while Kobashi tries to hold Taue Kawada at bay.  KAwada keeps Misawa from the frog splash so Taue can get a superplex

irish whip into a clothesline tries to whip into a chokeslam but counter, Kawada stil lairats him and hits backdrop.

Taue with a chokeslam while KAwada bombs Misawa.  kick out

Another powerbomb, Kobashi save

Stretch is too long again.

Taue’s stuff sticks out a dropkick and powerslam aren’t good at this point.  Kobashi with a german for a hot two.  whip into a blow into a backside clothesline into a tiger driver.  Kobashi saves.  Man just end this.

Moonsault for 2

Another misses.

back drop chokeslam gets two

chokeslam for two

Running baba line from Kobashi for 2

rolling powerbomb gets two.

body slam and moonsault for 3

Could have gotten to the same place 3 minutes faster.