Payback '14

[piranesi]

Didn't they have a great chance with Booker?  I remember that shot of him carrying the WCW title into the WWE locker room, and being really excited at how intense it was as he was stared down by everyone like he didn't belong.  It seemed like they were going to do the "He earns their respect" thing and make the title legit with Booker being the downtrodden underdog who's the real thing.  That could have made him huge along with that belt.

[StretchMediatedHypertrophy]

How was anyone better than Goldberg? Or Benoit for that matter?

 

Potential upside. Goldberg was an one-year guy who didn't even really need the title anyway. Benoit's win helped pacify the existing fanbase, but he could never be 'The Face of WWE' and it didn't even really elevate him long-term. They weren't the right jobs.

[Spontaneous]

Seriously, there was no one in 2002-2004 on Raw to take over. Hence why Orton and Batista were kept with Triple H, to prepare the future. RVD wasn't trustworthy and wasn't a WWE guy, Booker T should have won at WM19 but beyond that he wasn't the answer, Goldberg was a one year guy, Benoit wasn't a long term solution and Kane isn't a main event guy. Raw just sucked back then.

[Patrick B.]

They should call it the wee knee

Since he's little

HA!  He IS little!

[StretchMediatedHypertrophy]

Seriously, there was no one in 2002-2004 on Raw to take over. Hence why Orton and Batista were kept with Triple H, to prepare the future. RVD wasn't trustworthy and wasn't a WWE guy, Booker T should have won at WM19 but beyond that he wasn't the answer, Goldberg was a one year guy, Benoit wasn't a long term solution and Kane isn't a main event guy. Raw just sucked back then.

 

Jericho says hi.

 

The thing is, you're probably right about Booker T and RVD but we'll never know because they didn't get the chance at the time - sometimes people up their game when they main-event, sometimes they don't. But you try to create as many hot babyfaces as you can.

[Spontaneous]

Jericho is the only one. Raw just sucked back then, at one point Bubba Dudley was a contender. Jericho deserved a chance, maybe RVD too. It's a shame it was so poorly written while Smackdown thrived.

[Brian Fowler]

I'm just curious about the idea that they treated Cena losing to Bryan as a banana peel, because I didn't get that in the slightest bit.

 

On the other hand, they repeatedly referred to him beating Triple H (and then Orton and Batista as well) as a "miracle."

[Victator]

 

Ask Jericho and Booker T about HHH putting over dudes.

 

Booker T was going to win at WrestleMania and then they signed Goldberg to take his place. 

 

He could have won the belt back the next night or lost by count out. 

[offspring515]

It always strikes me as odd that two of the most common criticisms of WWE booking are "nobody is booked strong" and then when someone is booked strong "he doesn't job enough". I get why people say both, but it really does seem to lend credence to the idea that smart fans will complain no matter what.

[eikerir]

I somewhat agree, but there's a difference between being booked strong (Shield) to being booked ridiculously invincible (Cena).

[bink_winkleman]

I think most of the problem here is that people think that Cena's run is dying down and it's time to pass the torch, when the reality is that he's still firmly entrenched as the top guy, is still the best mic guy in the company when he doesn't have to read poop jokes, and is still putting on some of the best matches on the card.  And he's booked like pretty much any top guy - he gets beat up a lot by cheaters, then wins when the odds are evened out.  I mean, I'm not the John Cena target audience, but I completely get it.

 

And it's not like he needs to be losing high profile feuds.  Save those for his matches with rising faces like Bryan.  And beating young guys like Bray isn't a big deal, because they have a lot of wrestling ahead of them and it's hard to imagine that their careers are at their height.  Whereas HHH was burying guys at the peak of their popularity. 

[odessasteps]

Cena would have been great in the territory era with his john wayne square jaw persona.

[Dolfan in NYC]

Jericho is the only one. Raw just sucked back then, at one point Bubba Dudley was a contender. Jericho deserved a chance, maybe RVD too. It's a shame it was so poorly written while Smackdown thrived.

Just for the record, this pretty much coincides with the time Heyman was booking Smackdown.  Which, I believe, lasted until his Conference Call incident. 

[Craig H]

When I speak of Jericho, I'm referring back to the litany of times he wound up having his legs count from underneath him BEFORE that shitshow Wrestlemania main event. For instance, the Dusty Finish from Raw when Jericho beats HHH, but has to hand the title back to HHH. That crowd went nuts for Jericho's win and they had a giant shot at making him a huge star right then and there. And there was no reason for Jericho to lose to HHH in the last man standing match.

[Niners Fan in CT]

The thing with Cena is that he hasn't been just booked strong.. he's been unbeatable for a decade. That's longer than Hogan. There's been so many times where they could have done something a little different but even when he does lose, never clean.. he comes out smiling and shits on the entire thing. Once in a lifetime...nope, Cena needs the win back. Cena is fired...nope, he's back the next night. Do something different.

[Craig H]

Cena has been far from unbeatable. He's lost multiple times. Jesus, he had a losing streak at one point and was speculated as not being able to win the big one, which is legit funny because it completely lacks hindsight, until he beat the Rock. In this feud, he's currently up 2-1, and even then, I still think Bray is doing alright.

[bink_winkleman]

When I speak of Jericho, I'm referring back to the litany of times he wound up having his legs count from underneath him BEFORE that shitshow Wrestlemania main event. For instance, the Dusty Finish from Raw when Jericho beats HHH, but has to hand the title back to HHH. That crowd went nuts for Jericho's win and they had a giant shot at making him a huge star right then and there. And there was no reason for Jericho to lose to HHH in the last man standing match.

 

That Dusty Finish was horrible.  The crowd went absolutely batshit (and I did at home, too), and it was so clear that that was the moment to pull the trigger.  He was the hottest act on the show.  It was all downhill afterward. 

[Spritenaut 32]

Cena would have been great in the territory era with his john wayne square jaw persona.

 

I've long thought the main problem with Cena is that he's this generation's Hulk Hogan in a generation when the audience no longer wants 80's Hulk Hogan.  Cena would been huge as a territory guy or in the WWF prior to 1995 or so.  And he could have rotated out of the territory when he got stale, which is the crux of the issue in the WWE.

[Dolfan in NYC]

That's always been the problem with Cena.  There are zero consequences to his actions, wins, or losses.  The only thing we got anything close to character development was when he lost to the Rock 3 years ago, when he sat on the ramp watching Rocky celebrate.  That was the moment, *not to turn him heel*, but to mature the character.  He threw everything he knew at Rock, and all the Hustle, Loyalty, and Respect in the world couldn't beat him.  Have it haunt him for a couple of months, maybe taking a couple of 'shocking' losses along the way, have him sit out a little bit like a month, come back, serious, strong, and focused. Have him understand his own "mortality" (in this case, that he can be beat if he doesn't stay 100% focused).  

 

A lot of WWE writing suffers from this sort of non-progression and no consequences style. Stephanie in particular comes to mind.

 

But look at how people freaked out when Cult Leader CM Punk (SES/Nexus) became Pipe Bomb CM Punk.  It was a natural progression of his character and a shift in how he operated and did business, yet did not fundamentally change who he was. 

[Joe Fixit]

Cena's lost a lot of No DQ matches without interference. Those should count as clean losses.

And I'm pretty sure he's never beaten Sheamus in a singles match or The Shield in a tag match.

[Sky Blue Sam]

I remember there was an action figures thread on the old board, where someone played with Ric Flair as nearly invincible, but he couldn't ever beat Bushwhacker Butch, to the extent that Survivor Series teams would pick Butch in order to pin Flair. I'd love the WWE to have just one guy who isn't the top guy, but totally has Cena's number. May as well be Sheamus, but I like the idea of it being a total mid carder like Fandango who Cena just can't beat, but everyone else can.

[S.K.o.S.]

I remember there was an action figures thread on the old board, where someone played with Ric Flair as nearly invincible, but he couldn't ever beat Bushwhacker Butch, to the extent that Survivor Series teams would pick Butch in order to pin Flair. I'd love the WWE to have just one guy who isn't the top guy, but totally has Cena's number. May as well be Sheamus, but I like the idea of it being a total mid carder like Fandango who Cena just can't beat, but everyone else can.

 

Like in Stratego.

 

They ran a neat variation of that angle for quite a while in IWA-MS where Chris Hero, who was obviously a top guy, could never win in one particular city.  I forget where it was exactly, but it got to the point where they'd be putting him against guys like Trik Davis in that city and he'd still lose.

[Greggulator]

Cena was enslaved by a group of no-name rookies. He's willing to go to whatever lengths to put people over.

But it's smart that he wins more than loses. That way, beating him means something. CM Punk doesn't reach his level without beating Cena in Chicago. Bryan doesn't reach his level without beating Cena at SummerSlam. Beating him means a lot. Losing to him in competitive matches does, too.

[cwoy2j]

Cena was enslaved by a group of no-name rookies. He's willing to go to whatever lengths to put people over.

But it's smart that he wins more than loses. That way, beating him means something. CM Punk doesn't reach his level without beating Cena in Chicago. Bryan doesn't reach his level without beating Cena at SummerSlam. Beating him means a lot. Losing to him in competitive matches does, too.

 

Damien Sandow aka Davy Crockett aka Lance Stephenson might disagree with you on that last point.

[eikerir]

I remember there was an action figures thread on the old board, where someone played with Ric Flair as nearly invincible, but he couldn't ever beat Bushwhacker Butch, to the extent that Survivor Series teams would pick Butch in order to pin Flair. I'd love the WWE to have just one guy who isn't the top guy, but totally has Cena's number. May as well be Sheamus, but I like the idea of it being a total mid carder like Fandango who Cena just can't beat, but everyone else can.

 

 

I honestly was expecting Bray to be that character. Someone that Cena simply couldn't defeat no matter what for some reason. Then WM happened and i was like "Oh well"