The Great WWE Stock Crash of 2014

[Greggulator]

My social group in Philly largely consists of indie-punk fans who are or have been in bands, local comedians and other assorted weirdos. I also know a lot of comedy/musician types up in New York. My opinions may be tilted because there's a big crossover in Philly between the creative class I travel with and Chikara, which has become a centerpiece of local nerd culture in Philly. But I know a decent amount of people who absolutely love professional wrestling to the extent that I do. I mean, we're definitely in the minority and my wife and others mock the hell out of me, but I know a ton of folks who love pro wrestling.

I only know maybe two people who like UFC/MMA. One's my brother, who loves boxing and hand-to-hand combat and used to take BJJ classes at one of the Gracie dojos. He doesn't watch the current WWE but he has the Network and has been catching up on Clash of the Championships. The other is a good buddy of mine who used to go to every ECW show with me and loved Attitude Era stuff. He got into MMA because it's dudes fighting in cages and he's into violent sports.

I know this is purely anecdotal evidence. But I definitely think the WWE still has more of a cultural imprint than UFC and always will. The WWE will always have a nostalgia factor to it -- just like comic books and cartoons and local punk band 7-inches. I don't know if 20 years from now anyone will be talking about Anderson Silva. And the guy who is the most well-known UFC fighter to people who know nothing about UFC is seemingly Brock Lesnar. 

[Elsalvajeloco]

 

 

How the fuck did we start talking about MMA? 

 

Because that's what we chose to talk about.

 

 

They aren't a model in turning business around, though

 

 

...which is essentially one of the points I've been arguing since Antacular brought it up. The popularity of the UFC brand (and not MMA) in North America was built off the amalgamation of pro wrestling and boxing. You had the theatrics of pro wrestling and legitimacy of boxing (Brazilian jiu-jitsu and kickboxing along the way). WWE's problem of legitimacy has been a headache for Vince McMahon so much that he downplayed being a sport in favor of sports entertainment. But it's not strictly because it's a choreographed thing. It's their own dissipation of the programming over several years. There is no one model to fix that.

[bink_winkleman]

My social group in Philly largely consists of indie-punk fans who are or have been in bands, local comedians and other assorted weirdos. I also know a lot of comedy/musician types up in New York. My opinions may be tilted because there's a big crossover in Philly between the creative class I travel with and Chikara, which has become a centerpiece of local nerd culture in Philly. But I know a decent amount of people who absolutely love professional wrestling to the extent that I do. I mean, we're definitely in the minority and my wife and others mock the hell out of me, but I know a ton of folks who love pro wrestling.

I only know maybe two people who like UFC/MMA. One's my brother, who loves boxing and hand-to-hand combat and used to take BJJ classes at one of the Gracie dojos. He doesn't watch the current WWE but he has the Network and has been catching up on Clash of the Championships. The other is a good buddy of mine who used to go to every ECW show with me and loved Attitude Era stuff. He got into MMA because it's dudes fighting in cages and he's into violent sports.

I know this is purely anecdotal evidence. But I definitely think the WWE still has more of a cultural imprint than UFC and always will. The WWE will always have a nostalgia factor to it -- just like comic books and cartoons and local punk band 7-inches. I don't know if 20 years from now anyone will be talking about Anderson Silva. And the guy who is the most well-known UFC fighter to people who know nothing about UFC is seemingly Brock Lesnar. 

 

Yeah, anecdotally, I can get behind this.  I think there's a nerdy perspective of wrestling out there that it's actually a lot less "trashy" then it used to be.  MMA is part of the "diverse content" argument here, really.  A large portion of the Attitude era audience traded in their Austin 3:16 tees for Affliction shirts.  People who do just wanna see folks beat the shit out of each other moved on.  Meanwhile, the geeky wrestling fans stuck around as part of the larger fanbase and are possibly more interested in the product than ever.  Wrestling is, IMO, more attuned to geek culture than bro/macho/jock/etc. culture these days, and the WWE would do well to embrace and acknowledge that while still playing to a broader audience.  The sweet spot for them to grow the fanbase right now would be to push more toward ComicCons, Nerdist type stuff, @Midnight and other Comedy Central Shows, less butt rock, a hipper logo and so forth. 

[Elsalvajeloco]

Speaking as someone outside the wrestling bubble, does anyone see that going well? Trying to go after a subsection which often ridicules pro wrestling and doing so as a company that isn't really up-to-date with pop culture. That sounds like an absolute disaster waiting to happen. WWE has tried to be hip several times and failed miserably time-after-time.

 

Did you not see Hardwick breaking down the fan reactions after Taker/Lesnar on @midnight? Is that really something you wanna ignite?

[Reed]

 

The Ademi & O’Reilly law firm announced in a press release today that they also are investigating WWE for possible securities fraud. The firm says they are looking into inaccurate statements made by WWE about their business practices, financial statements and prospects.

 

Yeah, it's a really good thing Stephanie didn't sell off all her shares when the stock prices were sky high.

[Victator]

 

Go back and watch Royal Rumble 1999 and look at that crowd. Dial it up on the network and watch the first five minutes. We don't really want that again.

 

I think an overwhelming portion of wrestling fans in the 90s were raised in and as garbage. It was so ridiculous and shameful to love wrestling but have to sit next to dudes with tribal tattoos and abused women at live events -- and that's not even counting the scum at ECW.

The WWE, I think, has morphed into Acceptable Geek Culture. The audience is a lot more ComicCon than DUI-forced weekend jail. I'm certainly not shamed to watch wrestling PPVs in public anymore, since at least two posters on here were in the same room with me and everyone looked like a nerd who most likely have owned albums released by Merge Records at some point.

 

I miss the late 90's, everyone was angry and miserable and not ashamed to admit it and revel in being scum. 

Now everyone wears a mask and not the cool kind either. 

[odessasteps]

Is this the same people who were going to investigate a few weeks aago?

[Greggulator]

That type of lawsuit is par for the course whenever a share price drops dramatically.

[Greggulator]

 

My social group in Philly largely consists of indie-punk fans who are or have been in bands, local comedians and other assorted weirdos. I also know a lot of comedy/musician types up in New York. My opinions may be tilted because there's a big crossover in Philly between the creative class I travel with and Chikara, which has become a centerpiece of local nerd culture in Philly. But I know a decent amount of people who absolutely love professional wrestling to the extent that I do. I mean, we're definitely in the minority and my wife and others mock the hell out of me, but I know a ton of folks who love pro wrestling.

I only know maybe two people who like UFC/MMA. One's my brother, who loves boxing and hand-to-hand combat and used to take BJJ classes at one of the Gracie dojos. He doesn't watch the current WWE but he has the Network and has been catching up on Clash of the Championships. The other is a good buddy of mine who used to go to every ECW show with me and loved Attitude Era stuff. He got into MMA because it's dudes fighting in cages and he's into violent sports.

I know this is purely anecdotal evidence. But I definitely think the WWE still has more of a cultural imprint than UFC and always will. The WWE will always have a nostalgia factor to it -- just like comic books and cartoons and local punk band 7-inches. I don't know if 20 years from now anyone will be talking about Anderson Silva. And the guy who is the most well-known UFC fighter to people who know nothing about UFC is seemingly Brock Lesnar. 

 

Yeah, anecdotally, I can get behind this.  I think there's a nerdy perspective of wrestling out there that it's actually a lot less "trashy" then it used to be.  MMA is part of the "diverse content" argument here, really.  A large portion of the Attitude era audience traded in their Austin 3:16 tees for Affliction shirts.  People who do just wanna see folks beat the shit out of each other moved on.  Meanwhile, the geeky wrestling fans stuck around as part of the larger fanbase and are possibly more interested in stuffing instead of potatoes than ever.  Wrestling is, IMO, more attuned to geek culture than bro/macho/jock/etc. culture these days, and the WWE would do well to embrace and acknowledge that while still playing to a broader audience.  The sweet spot for them to grow the fanbase right now would be to push more toward ComicCons, Nerdist type stuff, @Midnight and other Comedy Central Shows, less butt rock, a hipper logo and so forth. 

 

 

Yeah, exactly. The reason why Daniel Bryan hit the nerve he did is because he's the avatar of the current fan base. He's a small, nerdy dude who has to fight against The Authority that prefers the look of Affliction lunkheads. That should be the feud for the rest of the decade -- The Authority sees Daniel Bryan can beat their self-appointed chosen ones but have to adapt as they face the reality that the audience doesn't like those people anymore.

They're starting to change up the look of the product by having things like the panel discussion group for the pre- and post-game shows. But they really, desperately need to change up the theme music to match the collector nerd fan-base. I'm not saying they need to recruit Arcade Fire or anything like that but they can find something better. Even something like The Black Keys would be better than what they have now.

[Fat Spanish Waiter]

Oh for the love of fuck don't you destroy what little cool pro wres is left with your awful generic mason jar bullshit music.

[Matt D]

What do you even think IS cool about pro wrestling right now? 

[bink_winkleman]

Speaking as someone outside the wrestling bubble, does anyone see that going well? Trying to go after a subsection which often ridicules pro wrestling and doing so as a company that isn't really up-to-date with pop culture. That sounds like an absolute disaster waiting to happen. WWE has tried to be hip several times and failed miserably time-after-time.

 

Did you not see Hardwick breaking down the fan reactions after Taker/Lesnar on @midnight? Is that really something you wanna ignite?

 

Well yeah, the point would be to get a little more up to date on things and target the audience without diving all in.  Which is certainly too much to ask of Vince McMahon, but which could be done easily enough.  You've got a ton of programming hours and the Network to bring in niche audiences without overhauling into a niche product.  I'm not saying they should base gimmicks on a weekly AVClub review or start reacting to hashtag activists about gender neutral pronouns or something.  But they've already got their claws in nerd culture more than ever before, might as well exploit it.  Guys like Punk, Jericho and Bryan are already great geek ambassadors for the product, but it seems that everything they do and the success they have with it is completely looked over.

 

And the Hardwick break down wasn't really that rough, and it was kind of endearing that he was even talking about it. 

[Elsalvajeloco]

If people found that to be endearing, I don't know what that says about wrestling fans.

 

Also, generic mason jar bullshit music is an incredible phrase. Does that include Kings of Leon?

[Victator]

Oh for the love of fuck don't you destroy what little cool pro wres is left with your awful generic mason jar bullshit music.

They make a good argument for why the current fanbase sucks. 

They want everything that makes wrestling great strained from it, until it is a generic blob. The "trash" as some call it, are what gives wrestling life. 

[Elsalvajeloco]

Did anyone see Meltzer retweet JR replying to the guy who said he would have a company with all tweeners? That was fucking marvelous.

[Fat Spanish Waiter]

What do you even think IS cool about pro wrestling right now?

Samoans, Texans. Brock.

[Matt D]

What do you even think IS cool about pro wrestling right now?

Samoans, Texans. Brock.

So Goldust?

[Fat Spanish Waiter]

 

 

What do you even think IS cool about pro wrestling right now?

Samoans, Texans. Brock.

So Goldust?

 

I liked Goldust.

 

Anyway the original question deserves a proper answer. Pro wres is at it's finest when tough guys are being tough. The staged nature of it means you don't have to worry about your cokehead roid-gutted unironic-mohawk-sporting superstar getting knocked out hilariously by guys that can't fill his shows.

 

Therefore at it's best, pro wres is a tough guy beating the fuck out of someone else. Maybe the other guy is less tough, maybe different-tough, maybe not tough at all, but he's got something to bring to the table. Tough guys in pro wres generally get to show how tough they are in tremendous ways, action movie ways. That's what is cool about pro wrestling. If you try to pander to a crowd of 100lb beard-havers, you won't get Stone Cold, Harley Race, Meng etc. You'll get terrible shitty guys with terrible shitty music doing terrible shitty things. Imagine the fucking Blacks Keys doing an entrance theme? What sort of awful character would come out to "Your touch"? Kenny Powers crotch chopped his way through a high school to that, you think anyone will want to watch whoever tries to use that song that isn't Kenny Powers?

 

The real problem with pro wrestling is that nobody kicks anyone's ass consistently. I know everyone hates it, but the best thing about an undercard is having them get mown down by the top guys. Steve Austin wants to know who ran him over? Might as well beat everyone up until someone cracks. That is someone you can get behind. If they ever stopped teasing Cena going full Terminator and did it for a few months, people would get behind him. Imagine how poorly 2014 Steve Austin would be booked? He comes out one week, cuts the 3:16 promo and gets stuck with tubby, worthless Boyd Crowder singing him songs and threatening to hamper his merchandise sales. The problem with everything in pro wres is there's too many nerds and dorks behind the scenes ruining stuff. I can totally get behind you guys getting your long tag matches, and I'm not saying we go back to the Attitude Era (or the Hogan era), but there has to be a someone to root for.

 

It doesn't surprise me that Bryan got over. Despite the maudlin hand wringing in here and the whining by soulless mingebags like raziel, it was pretty clear that Bryan overcoming the odds was a story that gained traction whether it was the original plan or not. He got his ass kicked because he was a tiny bearded hippy, but he kept getting up and fighting. That's far cooler than anything connected to Bray Wyatt, and the Bryan story was at it's worst when Wyatt was involved.

 

This is ranty and rambling but the point should be clear - the closer wrestling gets to Greg's awful, awful world, the less it has to do with the cool stuff we ALL liked.

[SolidGoldBomb]

You are probably the nerdiest dorkiest trolling-est loser out of all the posters here, yet you think you are some kind of total bad ass.  It's quite hilarious, all the while you hide behind your twitter handle and your internet bully persona to make yourself feel so cool.  I would pay good money to see you talk shit like that to ANYONE face to face

[Elsalvajeloco]

In reply to FSW...

 

I know you mean Chuck "Mr. Duralast" Liddell, but I swear I thought you were talking about some wrestler I've haven't watched when you mentioned roid-gutted (the Shane Douglas as I call it). 

 

Anyway, the staged aspect contradicts the whole toughness angle. Thesz, Danny Hodge, Jack Brisco, Billy Robinson were legit tough motherfuckers. That era has long passed. I mean look at the gimmick someone like Ziggler has. This guy went to the same school in Ohio and wrestled on the same team as Gray Maynard (UFC title challenger) and Andy Hrovat (U.S. Olympian). They don't treat him like that. Anyone over the age of fifteen who doesn't research that out isn't going to believe he is tough. Plus, his name is DOLPH ZIGGLER. Might as well print "license to be a midcarder" on his checks.

[Fat Spanish Waiter]

You are probably the nerdiest dorkiest trolling-est loser out of all the posters here, yet you think you are some kind of total bad ass.  It's quite hilarious, all the while you hide behind your twitter handle and your internet bully persona to make yourself feel so cool.  I would pay good money to see you talk shit like that to ANYONE face to face

Hey man I used to like the Black Keys but they got worse and worse by the album.

[Fat Spanish Waiter]

In reply to FSW...

 

I know you mean Chuck "Mr. Duralast" Liddell, but I swear I thought you were talking about some wrestler I've haven't watched when you mentioned roid-gutted (the Shane Douglas as I call it). 

 

Anyway, the staged aspect contradicts the whole toughness angle. Thesz, Danny Hodge, Jack Brisco, Billy Robinson were legit tough motherfuckers. That era has long passed. I mean look at the gimmick someone like Ziggler has. This guy went to the same school in Ohio and wrestled on the same team as Gray Maynard (UFC title challenger) and Andy Hrovat (U.S. Olympian). They don't treat him like that. Anyone over the age of fifteen who doesn't research that out isn't going to believe he is tough. Plus, his name is DOLPH ZIGGLER. Might as well print "license to be a midcarder" on his checks.

All valid points. I don't think tough guys exist the way they used to either, watching Brock get punched in the face and do backflips and somersaults across the octagon for five minutes kinda hurt his tough guy cred there. But you don't have to be legit tough. You have to look it. Was Steve Austin ever the toughest guy on the roster? He looked like a mean motherfucker though. There are a decent number of guys who they could make into Steve Austin or Harley Race or Meng if they wanted. The problem is they can't do it right. Fucking Roman Reigns beating Mark Henry on a random tv match is a stupid idea. If they want us to believe Reigns is a tough guy who does cool shit it has to be more organic and believable.

[SolidGoldBomb]

This is basically you right here, except you are too pussy to actually say anything mean to anyone in real life

 

Go film yourself in the park trolling people, calling them cunts and mingebags, and time how long it takes until you end up in the hospital.

[Elsalvajeloco]

 

In reply to FSW...

 

I know you mean Chuck "Mr. Duralast" Liddell, but I swear I thought you were talking about some wrestler I've haven't watched when you mentioned roid-gutted (the Shane Douglas as I call it). 

 

Anyway, the staged aspect contradicts the whole toughness angle. Thesz, Danny Hodge, Jack Brisco, Billy Robinson were legit tough motherfuckers. That era has long passed. I mean look at the gimmick someone like Ziggler has. This guy went to the same school in Ohio and wrestled on the same team as Gray Maynard (UFC title challenger) and Andy Hrovat (U.S. Olympian). They don't treat him like that. Anyone over the age of fifteen who doesn't research that out isn't going to believe he is tough. Plus, his name is DOLPH ZIGGLER. Might as well print "license to be a midcarder" on his checks.

All valid points. I don't think tough guys exist the way they used to either, watching Brock get punched in the face and do backflips and somersaults across the octagon for five minutes kinda hurt his tough guy cred there. But you don't have to be legit tough. You have to look it. Was Steve Austin ever the toughest guy on the roster? He looked like a mean motherfucker though. There are a decent number of guys who they could make into Steve Austin or Harley Race or Meng if they wanted. The problem is they can't do it right. Fucking Roman Reigns beating Mark Henry on a random tv match is a stupid idea. If they want us to believe Reigns is a tough guy who does cool shit it has to be more organic and believable.

 

 

Hilariously bad performance against Cain notwithstanding, Lesnar is still a tough guy who can whoop anyone sitting in the audience. You gotta remember they brought Tyson in to do the face off with Austin after losing to Holyfield twice in two high profile fights. That was a significant game changer. The problem here is WWE's logic now would be Mike Tyson beating Steve Austin in a wrestling match. There isn't a whole bunch you can do with Brock Lesnar after beating the Undertaker except lose to lesser known guys. You definitely can't build your company around a guy who might leave at anytime to go hunting for elk in the Dakotas. 

[jstout]

Back in the good old days, people who had charisma had gimmicks and characters people could care about. People who didn't were seen as "great technical wrestlers" like Jack Briscoe. Ziggler has no charisma, yet they keep expecting him to have charisma. Have him drop that shitty name and just wrestle and he'll be fine, eventually.

 

Reigns beating Henry in a random TV match means nothing because they're so stop-start with Henry. One week he's a killing machine and the next he's just some guy. The fans don't see him as anything but just some guy, so beating him is meaningless.

 

I can see Vince pulling the plug on putting the PPVs on the network and simply absorbing the losses to network subscribers that would bring. Some of you hardcores would stick around for the library, especially if he drops the price by a couple of dollars.