DVDVRBC THE SENSE OF AN ENDING by Julian Barnes

[username]

As was pointed out into the book, I think by Tony's mother, you can talk yourself into anything if you're clever enough. Adrian wanted to get out of the situation so he created an equation to support that theory. I believe he was the one who brought up Albert Camus and the philosophical question of suicide. Camus looks at suicide as a response to the absurd - finding meaning in life, when life is meaningless. He rejects using logic and rationality to decipher some hidden meaning to the universe - which appears to be what Adrian used to come to his own conclusion: kill myself.

 

Tony started to question whether Adrian was really that brilliant after all, or if he'd just projected that on to him. Whether he was brilliant or not, he was just a human prone to the same folly as the rest of us.

 

See, while I assume the diary page was legit if rather vague I kinda think that the actual suicide note wasn't exactly truthful in terms of what he was thinking.  When their classmate killed himself years prior for apparently knocking some girl up the group of them basically decided it was a poor attempt and that he missed an opportunity with his nothing of a suicide note.  I think Adrian dressed his up and made sure it was made public just so that his friends would think he went out... for lack of a better term, better.  The fact that they apparently decided that he had an "A plus death" or whatnot suggests it worked.

[S.K.o.S.]

When their classmate killed himself years prior for apparently knocking some girl up the group of them basically decided it was a poor attempt and that he missed an opportunity with his nothing of a suicide note.

 

Since you mentioned it, I just wanted to point out that that moment was a bit of a turning point for me.  Like up until then, it was a good time with the classroom banter, and I was enjoying it and finding it funny.  Then a classmate kills himself and they decide to critique his suicide note and speculate on what STDs his girlfriend had, and it was like "Wait, these guys might actually be total dicks."

[jaedmc]

There's one interesting bit that me and my wife(I've asked her to read it too, and she's enjoying it thus far) both picked up on. At first it seems like nothing- but later you realize he has two memories that slightly contradict each other foreshadowing the reveal of his letter.

 

The first time he writes Adrian it's that "Cheerio, old bean" bull shit. Then he says:

 

When, at last, I replied to it properly, I didn't use any of that silly "epistle" language. As far as I remember, I told him pretty much what I thought of their joint moral scruples. I also advised him to be prudent, because in my opinion Veronica had suffered damage a long way back. Then I wished him good luck, burnt his letter in an empty grate (melodramatic, I agree, but I plead youth as a mitigating circumstance), and decided that the two of them were now out of my life for ever.

 

 

Just this small section alone feels like he's leaving something out, but he's painting it as not such a big deal outside of the burning of the letter - which is far less pales in melodrama compared to his response.

 

Later when Adrian dies and the old chums get back together he says to them the following: 

 

"Did he tell you I wrote him a letter telling where to shove it?"

 

Which sounds slightly harsher than the way he's purporting to remember it above. When I first read it I felt like I'd missed something, because before it just sounded like a warning. Now it sounded like a "fuck you" letter. Anyway, I found this a cool touch by the author, as it shows a very cool gap in memory. He remembers telling his friends that he told Adrian to fuck off - but he doesn't actually remember what he said when he told him to fuck off - or that it was even that bad.

[Beast]

Interesting point there.

 

I also had to go back and check about his thoughts on the letter because I noticed a difference between the 1st and 2nd descriptions. I think at the time I took his initial description as not being on the level just by how it was conveyed. It even may be that at the time his writings seemed appropriate for the situation, but looking back without the immediate feelings still inhabiting his psyche, the letter now seems way overdone. 

[Matt D]

I'm curious if anyone else knows anyone that they consider to be like Adrian? Do we ALL know someone like that? He reminded me a lot of my freshman roommate (of the 1600 SAT, who dropped out of college after a year because it just wasn't working for him). I checked in with him last week just to make sure he was doing okay.

[Brisco]

Tony admits he does what he can to survive and I think this makes him an extremely selfish man. Every one of his connections be it friends or family all separate from him in one way or another. His wife finds love elsewhere, and his daughter seems to not have much of a relationship with him (Tony does mention that she may blame him but is not expanded upon). Even his school friends whom he met after Adrian's death are never mentioned again. Tony survived but at what cost? He evolved into a lonely old man.

[RIPPA]

I am trying to remember the last time I have hated every single person in a story.

The only thing I can immediately think of is Blair Witch Project

Grr....

[Matt D]

Tony admits he does what he can to survive and I think this makes him an extremely selfish man. Every one of his connections be it friends or family all separate from him in one way or another. His wife finds love elsewhere, and his daughter seems to not have much of a relationship with him (Tony does mention that she may blame him but is not expanded upon). Even his school friends whom he met after Adrian's death are never mentioned again. Tony survived but at what cost? He evolved into a lonely old man.

 

It hurts to have relationships with others, and you can't be hurt if you don't care and don't make yourself vulnerable. If you don't put yourself out there, you're untouchable, but i suppose eventually, you do look back and wonder what you've gotten other than a lack of conflict. 

 

The most jarring part of the book to me, more than anything else, was how quickly the rest of his life was rushed through at the end of part 1 when a few choice years were really highlighted for a number of pages before that. It was very believable, which really highlighted how utterly meaningless whole decades could end up being depending on your decisions and then how you and others view them.

[jaedmc]

I am trying to remember the last time I have hated every single person in a story.

The only thing I can immediately think of is Blair Witch Project

Grr....

Margaret's not so bad.

[Matt D]

I kind of like fry guy. He's salty.

[Jack]

I'll add to the general consensus that it was a pretty good book. It's left me feeling quite sad and a bit overwhelmed. There's not very much happiness in this, is there? I mean it starts OK with Tony reflecting fairly cheerfully on his youth, but even then it was pretty clear this wasn't going to end well for anyone. Soon a variety of unhappy things are occurring to everyone and the only punctuation for it is Tony reminding us that we're all going to grow old and enter into this fiendish plot with our own memory to delude ourselves into thinking we're good and happy people, and it's not going to work particularly well. So that's unpleasant. I think Barnes did a great job in condensing the miserable lives of three people into 150 pages and not making it seem rushed at all; I'm definitely overwhelmed in a good way rather than just feeling a bit confused and annoyed. 

 

I liked pretty much all the characters? I thought Tony seemed like a thoroughly decent and relatable person. He's frustrating and selfish and he torpedoes everything that's dear to him, but I don't think he ever does anything maliciously, Even that horrible letter to Adrian and Veronica is just some dumb student-y thing to do, there's no way he could have foreseen how much hurt it would cause. I think that Adrian 100% convinces himself that his suicide is a totally acceptable and logical thing to do and isn't motivated by any desire to hurt. Fear, definitely, but then I'd be fucking terrified if that happened to me. Outside of that, he's just a normal student, I don't think being pretentious and taking himself too seriously is that remarkable or despicable. Veronica deals as best as she can with all the torment she's been put through. They're all just average humans reacting in the way average humans do to things. Perhaps when their behaviour is actually chronicled in a novel it seems much worse than it is.  

 

There were a couple of minor things I didn't like. The book's attitude to suicide was really weird, it just kind of flipped from everyone going "hahaha, Robson committed suicide!" to "isn't Adrian such a hero for committing suicide?" to "isn't Adrian such a coward for committing suicide?" And there was no challenge to any of these attitudes, they were just presented as the normal way to react, as if Adrian should have committed suicide because he made a very deep philosophical quote that instructed him to, but shouldn't have committed it because he went through a very traumatic emotional event.  I didn't really like the dialogue in places either, it was a bit too witty and self-confident for this kind of a book.

 

I liked Tony's little musings, I agree with everyone who's said they're identifiable and thought provoking. 

 

Tony going to the pub on his own for no reason and arguing about chips with a confused bar-tender, while being vaguely aware that this makes him look like a "pedant or an idiot" was so so sad. I think no matter what you think of Tony's actions, he's atoning for it in how bleak his twilight years are.

 

And that's all I can think of to say at the moment!

[CSC]

I just finished listening to this on my way to work and am gathering my thoughts, but to everyone else who listened to the audiobook...

 

Every single post in this thread is being read in my mind in Tony's slow, bland English accent read by the narrator.  And it's driving me insane.

[Shane]

Ha! I was thinking the same thing about the audio.

It's been happening a lot more recently, but I've discovered that I'm past the point of a book (or movie, or...) needing to have "likable" characters for me to relate. It struck a chord because of the subject matter here. Maybe the distance of adulthood has given the perspective that, you know, I'm no friggin' saint myself. But here I am, creating my own narrative as I go that paints me in a way better light than I probably.deserve. Made me think...

[jaedmc]

On the subject of "relatable"-ness: http://chronicle.com/blogs/linguafranca/2011/08/26/im-relatable-youre-relatable/

 

And another(well the first half is, the rest is about Justin Long): http://therumpus.net/2010/10/and-this-is-word-for-word-the-theory-of-relatability-and-rethinking-justin-long%E2%80%99s-face/

 

I don't really need to relate to people to get a movie or book. Indeed, it's more interesting when I don't, just because it opens up perspective. Anthony is pretty lame to me, but I thought the book was an exciting reed that gave me insight to myself despite not being able to fully relate to any of the characters. Sofia Coppola's Bling Ring was the same. None of the characters are what you'd call "likeable", and yet I got really introspective during that film. What it means to exist in a celebrity society, how do I contribute to that, and how do I keep my children from being apart of it.

 

So for me, relatability is overrated. 

[Matt D]

My self-interest is so huge that I relate to pretty much anything. 

[Shane]

For me, I think I went through a pretty lengthy phase of just not wanting to be that introspective. It was easier to just consume pop culture that wasn't challenging (in that way). Not better...just easier.

[S.K.o.S.]

Jae's 2nd link sez:

 

Romantic comedies often engender the worst of the phenomenon: Instead of telling a story, in the name of relatability they hit notes, make references, and present punchline-based characters in the effort to elicit one of our laziest, sub-trash responses, which in full goes something like this: I was exposed to something, and it reminded me of me.

 

The most dangerous thing about relatability is the way it is often presented (and accepted) as a reasonable facsimile of or substitute for truth. This, I worry, may handicap our culture so violently that recovery, if it comes at all, will be generations in the reckoning; if in the meantime we lose our appetite for the real thing we are pretty much doomed. The pursuit of truth is a basic human instinct, and guides our engagement with ourselves, with art, and with other human beings; the scourge of relatability—and its sweetheart deal with another basic instinct, adaptation—puts all three relationships at risk.

 

I get the point, but it's a little overblown.

 

I'm not saying I need to relate to a character to be able to enjoy something, but there are books and movies that I've read or watched that I don't fully appreciate, and then I come back to them a few years later with the benefit of more life experience, and I understand what's going on in a way that I couldn't have before, even if I had taken the time to think reeeally hard about it.  I'm struggling to think of a specific example but I know it's happened to me.  Like I think an older person could relate to this book far more than a younger person could, and would enjoy it more for that reason.  Why is that a bad thing?

 

If someone feels that the more 'relatable' their art is, then the better it becomes, then I can see the problem.  If you watch Office Space and go, "Wow, I have a shitty office job too!  What a great movie, give it all the Oscars!" then yes, that's kind of lazy.  But (and I'm not necessarily talking about this book in particular here) if a book or movie lines up with your life experience in a way that you didn't know was possible, like something you thought very few other people went through, then that can be a lot more valuable.

 

I had never thought of the enjoyment of art as being the pursuit of truth either.  I mean, a book with one author can really only be that author's version of "truth".

[jaedmc]

 I mean, a book with one author can really only be that author's version of "truth".

Boy does that statement apply to this book.

 

I personally don't like the second article that much, I just read it recently. But that section you quoted I felt pertinent to the concept of "relatability". I should have just cut and pasted it like you, because the rest of the article kind of suxors.

[RIPPA]

I still hate everyone in this book and their stupid faces (or at least what their stupid faces look like in my mind)

 

One of these times - I will like what I get assigned in this club

[odessasteps]

My self-interest is so huge that I relate to pretty much anything.

This quote is super funny since your avatar is Bockwinkle and Heenan.

[EVA]

I was really enjoying the book up until about page 104 when The Letter turns up, at which point it became my own personal horror story. I am now having a panic attack wondering if a similar letter written when I was in high school is still out there in the world somewhere, lurking, waiting to pop back up and fuck with my whole perspective on my life. I did not need any additional angst in my life, thank you!

[Lamp, broken circa 1988]

Brief aside: I have very little experience with reading fiction writing. I mean, I did when I was a kid, but I stopped from like 14-now, so a lot of what I'll have to say about a book is reflected through my own experiences since I have no know-how on what "good fiction writing" means other than liking it or not. This seems like a good enough metric.

 

Anyways.

 

When I was a teenage stupid, I was deeply scorned by what I understood to be love. I had two circumstances play out very similarly to Tony, Adrian & Veronica. Neither time could I really bring myself to lash out in a meaningful, direct way like Tony did. Reading this has me feeling like "It's a wonderful life"- I could've been this guy but I'd end up where he is. Pats on backs.

[JRGoldman]

I finished this tonight, and I'm glad of having read it. I think the book as a whole is a pretty strong effort, although I find myself feeling as though similar themes have been explored in a more interesting fashion by some other writers. I think that Remains of the Day is really quite similar although the protagonist in that is clearly supposed to be heartbreaking instead of infuriating. I'm very sure that was a choice on Barnes' part; clearly we glean parts of our own life and experience in Tony, but I don't necessarily think that we are supposed to feel for him or like him. I actually think Barnes showed a tremendous amount of restraint throughout this book. I think the power of everything would have been undercut if we had been privy to the aftermath, or if Barnes had tried to make us feel for Tony at all.

I think the book is really interesting if you assume Tony is biased certainly in his presentation of not out right lying about how things went down. I talked about this briefly in my previous post, but I really love unreliable narration in fiction. Right after I finished the book, I immediately thought back to how Tony's visit to Veronica's family, and how all his tender memories of the mother might be these after the fact creations that the years have a way of forming. I think it's cool that I focus on things like this, what I believe and what I don't, instead of thinking simply about my reaction to the plot and potential meaning.

I am glad to have read this book. Somewhat like Jae, I don't feel the need to be a Julian Barnes completist after this, but he did establish a clear viewpoint that was easy for me as a reader to grasp. The best thing about a club like this is reading things I haven't before and wouldn't normally, and this book was both of those things. I can't wait for the next project!

[Matt D]

How old would have people thought Barnes was having read this? 

[Swift]

I'd have assumed both he and the character of Tony were around 60ish. Have no idea, really, though the author photo on the jacket seems to confirm my guess.