DVDVRBC THE SENSE OF AN ENDING by Julian Barnes

[jaedmc]

This is where discussion goes when you finish. Because the book is relatively short, we'll only do the one thread.

 

And I need more proof that you actually read it than "Hey pretty good book."

[Matt D]

Since we have one note: Spoiler policy is totally free game, right? If you read this note, then you should expect full and complete discussion of the book with no filters. Right?

[jaedmc]

Absolutely. This is where you let loose, so I don't expect it to get completely busy until a week or so from now, but it's up just in case.

[Matt D]

Man, this thing is popular. My library branch only has 1 out of 27 copies right now and that's all the way in Elkridge. 

[Shane]

Should finish listening to it on my way home tomorrow. Enjoying it a lot, but Christ, is Tony ever painfully stupid at times...

[Beast]

Finished it this morning after reading about 50 pages each of the last few days. I'll wait for discussion to start up before putting down more thoughts, but I definitely enjoyed it and want to check out more of Barnes' work.

 

The thing that stands out to me the most right now is how much of the book is "plot-less", with Tony's musings on memory, life, and time taking up lots of space. But then those musings seem more meaningful and true than any plot could be I guess. Those philosophies did much to allow me to empathize with him and despite his failings and the mistakes he made, I could see myself acting pretty much the same in those situations. His feelings of being a bystander in his own life is something I can identify with.

 

I'm curious as to how you all see Tony at the end. Personally, despite the letter I don't see him being responsible for what happened to Veronica, Adrian, and Sarah. I can understand Veronica's anger and frustration as she really was hurt the most after all, but no matter what Adrian wrote about Tony I still don't see Tony as being a major player in his actions.

 

And what do you all think was written in the diary that led Sarah to give it to Tony? Was Adrian complimentary or the opposite?

[username]

Saw the book was short and i needed something to read so... hey.

 

And what do you all think was written in the diary that led Sarah to give it to Tony? Was Adrian complimentary or the opposite?

 

Regarding the latter question I think that Adrian would regard Anthony as more important to him than Anthony had lead us to believe.  He portrayed Adrian as this paragon, the best of them who existed almost above the other three.  Ignoring how the revelations showed that to be false, what struck out to me in the book's aftermath was that Adrian at the least likely cared a good deal about what Tony thought/felt.  

 

I think he sent the initial letter to him asking about dating Veronica from an honest place because he cared about how Tony would feel/react to it.  The book itself and the one diary page we are given suggests that the contents of Tony's angry letter lead him towards Veronica's mother, the one bit that stood out as actually usable advice.  If he took that part of the letter seriously he likely took the rest so as well which could have poisoned his relationship with Veronica which... well probably made what happened with Susan a bit more likely to occur.  Add in that he even considered him in his formula deliberations and I was left with the impression that while I'm not sure if Adrian liked or disliked him by the end he definitely valued him.

 

Now was it actually Anthony's fault?  I don't think we are given enough information to know for sure.  Adrian didn't and he was the closest person in the book to the actual answer.  I think the diary cutting off where it did hints that this was by design.  Tony flicked the first domino that ended up in a cascade of destruction and he did so in a stupid thoughtless way, but said cascade was unpredictable enough that I don't think it is entirely fair to blame him for not seeing it down the road.  I know I always look back on the me of five years ago and think he was often an idiot, it makes me hesitate to assign that severe a level of blame to a guy who was still young and still in many ways dumb. 

[JRGoldman]

I finished part one of this the other day, and while I will wait until I am done with the whole book to write specifics about the plot and my thoughts and reactions, I would like to say that I think Barnes has this really rare ability as a writer to make character issues both really specific and universally relatable. It's really cool from a technical standpoint, because Tony is obviously an unreliable narrator, and very clearly is giving us drastically revised history but we still find ourselves identifying with his everyday fears and relationships because we can all think of a moment or two in which we have done mental gymnastics to justify a result or live with ourselves despite knowingly poor behavior. I hope that makes sense, I can't think of a clearer way to say it. In a way, Barnes (whom I have not read before) reminds me a lot of Ishiguro in terms of voice. They both excel at having a protagonist who is deathly afraid of not being in on the joke, and they both are able to make small heartaches and breaks seem as important and imposing as major personal tragedy. 

 

I'll probably finish this in a few more days, and I'll write more as I go. 

[Matt D]

I was able to get this online through my library on a two week loan right to my tablet, so that's pretty cool. About 30% in from this morning. 

[Matt D]

I'm done, and I think I'm going to jot down some thoughts before I think better of it. Maybe I'll edit out this whole thing later.

 

I don't read novels often. I'm fairly pretentious, in my own way, at least as much so as someone who posts on an internet wrestling board might be. I've got my Masters' degrees. I work for my big international agency, even if it's doing work that's nothing to write home about. I look down on all the key things to look down on, religion and high school football and the Kardashians and those who know anything about them. I don't read novels though, not unless I have a damn good reason, and I suppose I saw this as a good reason. I gravitate towards escapism, be it comics or sci fi or fantasy or old mystery or Wodehouse or period yarns or what not. I'm exceptionally good at falling towards the avoidance of conflict and the path of least resistance.  I think a lot of the reason I don't read novels is that elements of my life don't always hold up well to scrutiny and things that outright make me think and examine, tend to be ultimately unpleasant. 

 

This book, then, was a kick in the crotch, and then a slow back and forth digging of said foot. The lessons learned here are that while going through life, we hide behind self-delusion, can never fully understand ourselves, mainly because we choose not to, and of course, never choose to understand those around us, who are likely doing the same, The narratives we create in our head both in the immediate and the long term are sloppy and facile, that just surviving life isn't enough but were we try to accomplish something higher, we'd just make a mess of it. At least, I think that's it. I read this book and think that if Tony did things differently over the years, nothing good would have come to it because the inherent nature of life, as this book puts forth, would still be true. I actually think, where things are at the end, aren't the real truth. He STILL doesn't get it and he still probably never will. There are three or four layers left to peel back and maybe having the diary would help and maybe not. Veronica could tell him her story and that'd be full of her own misunderstandings and untrustworthy narratives and coping devices that any sort of real truth would simply be unattainable. It literally could not exist and if it somehow could, it wouldn't matter, because it would be so far away from the perceptions that had shaped her life. 

 

Maybe that's just me being overly sympathetic to Tony, too. Maybe the problem isn't every person but is mainly him and those like him. Maybe that's because I relate on some level. I think, ultimately, though, we're all untrustworthy narrators in our own life and an effort is all we can make, and it's never going to be a truly honest one. I believe in the power of intention but accept that at the end of the day actions are what matter. The book seems to have a mentality of "do as little harm as possible" while fully admitting that you're probably going to do harm through action and inaction and through removing yourself from a situation entirely. 

 

As for the book itself, it was well written. It taps into a lot of very normal and everyday emotions and activities and makes them visceral. I think that there's a lot of underlying churning in life that we cover up with the minutia of the moment and overwhelm with the long expanse of years. I'm not entirely sure, even after reading the book, that any real good can be done by digging into that. I probably enjoyed part one the best, though there's a wrongness to that, as the little bits of adolescent wit and warmth to be found in the recollections were all proven to be so empty by the end of the book. You're supposed to enjoy it and then pay for it later. I found it funny, and telling, how they knocked autobiographical literature in a section that was basically just that, but there were a ton of little such touches throughout. I found the end of part 1 to be jarring, with the time jump and how matter-of-fact it was of unsettling contrast to the detail of what came before. 

 

Part 2 was all about the anticipation of answers. The end was unsatisfying, but it wasn't supposed to be. It's a rabbit hole, and you're about far enough down it that climbing back up seems like a fairly good idea. I think, maybe, the luckiest thing that could have happened to Tony in all of this is that he never got that diary. Maybe for the readers as well.

 

It reminded me a bit of the last book I read for the club, All the Names by Jose Saramago. since that too was about the near-obsessed search for the truth and story of a life. It was as impersonal as this book was personal though, but it was very much in the main character's head a well. That one stung a bit less. It raised the mundane to the mythical, while this yanked our own personal mythos into the mundane. 

[RIPPA]

I have it from my library and just finished the book I was in the middle of so I should have this done by the weekend

[Liam]

I'm glad this has generated ideas and discussion, mostly which seems fairly positive. It does make me think that I'm not as analytical in my reading as some are, as I find the discussion here useful in actually comprehending a lot of what I read.

 

My main enjoyment from the book was the writing of a character that I could perceive as myself. Traits, rationalisations, acceptance, 'getting by'. All aspects of what I feel I am as a person at times, and ultimately, have accepted as the person I will be. Even though his story isn't a positive one, his characterisation spoke to me.

 

I agree that the first part, with the wit and warmth of the adolescent boys is strong, again reminding me of times spent waxing away about books in my A Level English class.

 

I'll add more later, as discussion develops, but the best thing I got out of the book was a desire to write. I've tried my hand at it from time to time, but I felt like I wanted to be able to create characters that are easy to relate to, yet flawed, making the mundane interesting and engaging. Whilst worlds away from him in style, I liken it somewhat to when I first read any Bukowski (Factotum being my first book) - it was fresh and interesting to me, as the gritty, seedy side of the world had never been explored in any book I had read previously. Following books never truly engaged me in the same way. Barnes has done the same thing for me with A Sense of An Ending, but with the everyday man, who just wants to get by.

[Swift]

Finished this today. Quite enjoyed it. Might put some thoughts down later. Ah, but here comes my rickshaw. Must dash.

[jaedmc]

Oh you fucker, you took my bit.

[S.K.o.S.]

Finished it last night.  I'll write more later, but I had actually read one of the author's other books a couple of years ago, a non-fiction one called Nothing To Be Frightened Of which was sort of a memoir, but it focused on growing old and dying.  The title had sort of a double meaning; people come to terms with dying and say that it's "nothing to be frightened of", but Julian isn't there yet, and he finds the possibility of oblivion after death, the nothingness, terrifying.  So it's "nothing, to be frightened of".  I liked this little excerpt from that book enough at the time to copy it down:

 

 

 

We live, we die, we are remembered, we are forgotten. This is inevitable. And at some point - it must logically happen - a writer will have a last reader. I am not asking for sympathy; this aspect of a writer's living and dying is a given. At some point between now and the six-billion-years-away death of this planet, every writer will have his or her last reader.

 

My last reader: there is a temptation to be sentimental over him or her. Indeed, I was about to make some authorial gesture of thanks and praise to the ultimate pair of eyes to examine this book, this page, this line. But then logic kicked in: your last reader is, by definition, someone who doesn't recommend your books to anyone else. You bastard! Not good enough, eh? You prefer that trivial stuff which is all the rage in your superficial century? I was about to mourn your passing, but I'm getting over it fast. You really are so mean-spirited, so idle-minded, so lacking in critical judgment? Then you don't deserve me. Go on, fuck off and die. Yes, you.

 

So anyway, in this book, you do see little reflections of that same obsession with death.  There's something early on about "that moment when time itself ceases to exist".  And I felt like, if this author has characters kill themselves, given that he hates death so much himself, then it's got to really be for a super serious reason.

[Liam]

Before I read this, I read his book Levels of Life. It was a memoir, about his wife who had recently died. Once again, very short - but a good, good read.

[jaedmc]

I'm not even sure I'll read anything else by him. I feel like I kind of got everything needed in this one book. That's not a slam, just a strange feeling and I'm not even sure where it came from.

 

There's something about the assertion that history is not the lies of the winners, but the memories of the survivors. I kind of like it, but it almost sounds to optimistic - which is probably telling of my general disposition.

 

Tony's letter seemed like the most outwardly emotional event of his life. He'd played everything so even keel up until then and everything after. Even when dealing with the infuriatingly obtuse Veronica he approached everything like a robotic customer service rep. What would you like to do to day? I'm sorry you have a problem. Let me know how I can help should you actually want my help. If not, I hope your day improves. It's all miserably passive. However the one time he let's shis shit go, he ends up cursing an unborn child. Is this a moment of weakness? Or would you say that if maybe he was more experienced dealing with passionate emotions - he would be able to handle these situations better?

[Beast]

I'm not even sure I'll read anything else by him. I feel like I kind of got everything needed in this one book. That's not a slam, just a strange feeling and I'm not even sure where it came from.

 

There's something about the assertion that history is not the lies of the winners, but the memories of the survivors. I kind of like it, but it almost sounds to optimistic - which is probably telling of my general disposition.

 

Tony's letter seemed like the most outwardly emotional event of his life. He'd played everything so even keel up until then and everything after. Even when dealing with the infuriatingly obtuse Veronica he approached everything like a robotic customer service rep. What would you like to do to day? I'm sorry you have a problem. Let me know how I can help should you actually want my help. If not, I hope your day improves. It's all miserably passive. However the one time he let's shis shit go, he ends up cursing an unborn child. Is this a moment of weakness? Or would you say that if maybe he was more experienced dealing with passionate emotions - he would be able to handle these situations better?

 

I think the "cursing an unborn child" section of the letter is overemphasized in both Tony's mind and probably Veronica's.The extreme passive-aggressiveness of her in never explicitly telling Tony anything she's upset about says more about her than him. I'm sure we've all said things in anger that ended up having unintended meaning or significance to the person receiving those words, but in Tony's case I refuse to hold him responsible for such a unintended consequence. And in what world does telling someone to "Talk to Veronica's mother" hold you in any way responsible for them having relations? And related to that, is there any significance to the gesture her mother makes to Tony as he's being driven away from her house in the 1st half?

 

I also enjoyed the e-mail correspondence with Veronica in the 2nd half because I know I'm constantly think about the way I correspond with people in e-mails and whether or not more can be read into each word choice I make. Seems like Veronica did the opposite or thought to much (or little) of Tony do elaborate.

 

Is Tony really that dense? What are moments where some of you were disappointed in his actions or thoughts? I still think of him as very relatable and easy to empathize with.

[jaedmc]

I don't hold him responsible, I just think it's interesting that the one time he speaks his real unfiltered feelings it ends in regret. I can't say I exactly liked him, but I understood him and didn't think he was a horrible person or anything. Just 100% average. But he was still totally dense. It felt like everyone else understood how the fucking world worked BUT him. Which is funny, because as a narrator he had interesting insight - he just never expressed himself the same way to the other characters as he did the reader.

 

It's odd, I liked his little old man learned lessons he'd drop every once in a while, but after it ended I found myself questioning whether he was actually wise at all. 

 

Really the only lesson I gathered that has irrefutably changed my world view: hand cut fries are just fat fucking fries. They're not cut on the premises. what the fuck.

[S.K.o.S.]

I did find Tony relatable, but it reminded me of someone trying to ask a girl to their high school prom, getting rejected, and not knowing how to take no for an answer.  He never felt he got closure with Veronica, and when he was given the opportunity to reconnect with her, it was as if he was transported back to that teenage awkward phase that we (hopefully) eventually grow out of as we gain confidence in ourselves.

 

In the late stages of the book, when he was sending Veronica e-mail after e-mail when she clearly wanted to be left alone, I was thinking "For god's sake, cut it out."  I wanted him to stop contacting her more than I wanted to find out what was going on with Adrian.

 

I agree that the letter he sent probably didn't have as much of an effect as he thought it did, but he's so isolated, going weeks between talking to anyone, that it leads to narcissism (so that he thinks he bears responsibility) and extreme navel-gazing.  That's what I found regrettable.

[Beast]

In the late stages of the book, when he was sending Veronica e-mail after e-mail when she clearly wanted to be left alone, I was thinking "For god's sake, cut it out."  I wanted him to stop contacting her more than I wanted to find out what was going on with Adrian.

 

I agree that the letter he sent probably didn't have as much of an effect as he thought it did, but he's so isolated, going weeks between talking to anyone, that it leads to narcissism (so that he thinks he bears responsibility) and extreme navel-gazing.  That's what I found regrettable.

 

Absolutely to both these, especially the second point. I think the most successful aspect of the book is how much it dives into his thought process and how he views things like no other book I've possibly ever read. I have a hard time not seeing everything from his perspective even now, I was so ingrained in his world.

[Swift]

I did find Tony relatable, but it reminded me of someone trying to ask a girl to their high school prom, getting rejected, and not knowing how to take no for an answer.  He never felt he got closure with Veronica, and when he was given the opportunity to reconnect with her, it was as if he was transported back to that teenage awkward phase that we (hopefully) eventually grow out of as we gain confidence in ourselves.

 

In the late stages of the book, when he was sending Veronica e-mail after e-mail when she clearly wanted to be left alone, I was thinking "For god's sake, cut it out."  I wanted him to stop contacting her more than I wanted to find out what was going on with Adrian.

 

I agree that the letter he sent probably didn't have as much of an effect as he thought it did, but he's so isolated, going weeks between talking to anyone, that it leads to narcissism (so that he thinks he bears responsibility) and extreme navel-gazing.  That's what I found regrettable.

 

Yeah, this is spot on for me, and exactly how I viewed Tony. I found his insurance company routine to be completely cringeworthy, both in the original anecdote and then in his dealings with Veronica. Even in the two moments in the bar talking about the hand cut chips, I just wanted him to shut up. Up until the second chapter, I totally (and somewhat unhappily) related to him as somebody who has just let life happen to them, rather than making things happen themselves.

 

Regarding the letter, Beast also mentioned that Tony could hardly be held responsible for spewing some venom only for it to somewhat come true later on. I think, maybe, the fact that it was in written form, rather than verbal gave it more strength. Whereas cruel spoken words are usually forgotten, the written word is less easily erased both literally and from memory. In truth, his words were essentially the equivalent of making a "your mom" joke, only for the other guy to say "My mom's dead"

 

I actually really enjoyed the book overall, and like Jae said, Tony as a narrator had interesting things to say regarding memory and how we tend to leave things out until we start to believe our own version of the memories. We've all told anecdotes, and left out parts that have made us look bad, or exaggerated the great witty response we had in riposte. Over time, as we keep telling those anecdotes, we eventually can't remember how exactly it went.

 

Anyone else feel the book worked without the final twist of who Adrian's mother was? I didn't think that was necessary at all.

 

And lastly, I don't have the book to hand, but when Tony e-mailed the brother, did he mention why he was getting in touch, that he was looking for Adrian's diary? Because if he did (and I think he did), surely, surely, the brother would've said "oh, you mean that guy who was dating my sister, but then fucked my mother and got her pregnant, giving me a new brother? That guy?"

[Brisco]

I think you guys are looking at the

situation as a+b=c, however I took the

Veronica as seeing things as c happened so

a+b must be true. From Veronica's point of

view Adrian cheated with her mother whom

her ex recommended thusly he must have

been screwing her too. The angry letter

from Tony is the smoking gun she needs to

prove, in her mind, that Tony wanted

nothing but ruin their relationship as

well as their lives.

 

Adrian's equation is slightly different,

though I lack the mathematical skill to

come up with it. I take the journal entry

to be written just before Adrian's suicide

and is a more detailed view (especially if

we had the complete entry) into why he

decided to end it all. Adrian has no

reason to mention Tony in this entry

unless his downfall of an unwanted

pregnancy from an affair had its genesis

in Tony's suggestion to talk to Mrs. Ford.

Adrian could also draw that maybe this was

a way for Tony to sabatoge a relationship

that he obviously was not happy with. The

key factor is both of their equations is

Tony. Without his suggestion it is assumed

that the affair would never have happened.

 

I loved this book from the situation Tony

is faced with to his rambling thoughts

that provide some interesting insights. I

actually found myself looking over my life

and situations I did not handle properly

and even my own what might have beens.

This was a very enjoyable read.

[jaedmc]

I think the whole equation is silly and I feel my point of view is supported by Adrian killing himself.  

 

As was pointed out into the book, I think by Tony's mother, you can talk yourself into anything if you're clever enough. Adrian wanted to get out of the situation so he created an equation to support that theory. I believe he was the one who brought up Albert Camus and the philosophical question of suicide. Camus looks at suicide as a response to the absurd - finding meaning in life, when life is meaningless. He rejects using logic and rationality to decipher some hidden meaning to the universe - which appears to be what Adrian used to come to his own conclusion: kill myself.

 

Tony started to question whether Adrian was really that brilliant after all, or if he'd just projected that on to him. Whether he was brilliant or not, he was just a human prone to the same folly as the rest of us.

[JRGoldman]

So because of this board and the amount of time I have spent on it over the years, every time the brother would end the email with "Here comes my rickshaw, must dash" I couldn't help but imagine the brother as Resident Evil.