MAY WRESTLING DISCUSSION THREAD

[Brian Fowler]

Bisch had his hugely successful run for 3ish years.  Then he struck out.  A lot.

 

It's not that uncommon for someone to book a red hot run somewhere, and never be able to recapture it. 

 

 

And, I mean, it's pro wrestling, of course he will claim as much credit as possible for anything he can.

[MikeRose]

Bisch had his hugely successful run for 3ish years.  Then he struck out.  A lot.

 

It's not that uncommon for someone to book a red hot run somewhere, and never be able to recapture it. 

 

 

And, I mean, it's pro wrestling, of course he will claim as much credit as possible for anything he can.

I felt like The real NwO run was like 1 mango season and that's it.  Once they saw it working....they killed it by diluting the crap out of it.  But the original build was pretty good and built them a good fanbase that to the WWF like 2 years to chip away at.

[Charlie M.]

Bischoff was good at doing deals and playing a character.  He was in way over his head as far as being the boss of a company with guys like Hogan, Nash, Hall, etc.

[Newb82]

One of Bischoff's biggest mistakes was trying to set up the nWo as it's own separate brand, rather than realizing it's a stable that eventually needed to be defeated by WCW and disbanded.

[StretchMediatedHypertrophy]

 

My brain hurts just thinking of all the factions since that statement.

Just think about how many factions versus authroity figure story lines there were in Eric's TNA tenure.  I listened to Eric on the Steve Austin podcast this week and though maybe WCW having so many terrible ideas weren't his fault.  There was a lot going on and all kinds of pressure   I love how now he says that he knew the ship was sinking right when Thunder was introduced.  Anyway, I'm think he isn't so bad....then I listened to Jericho's podcast with Bret.  Then it all comes back.  How big of an idiot he was.  How he blew having the biggest free agent in history and literally did not draw one dime with him.  Ahhh...what the fuck do I know.  

 

 

I've said this before, but I think the mishandling of Bret Hart is majorly overstated. Bret Hart was an important guy in WCW; what are people actually suggesting was done with him? Hart was played out as a babyface, Montreal or otherwise. If Owen hadn't died, you may well have seen Bret Hart vs RednYellow Hogan. I really think if Bret sat and watched his stuff in WCW then he'd think differently about it.

[Newb82]

Bret was definitely NOT played out as a babyface when he went to WCW. He was the most sympathetic man in wrestling at that point.

 

As for signs of mis-handling? The seemingly constant, often nonsensical turns. How many times did he turn in two years? At least five right?

[JohnnyJ]

What you need to remember about the late 90s is there was a wrestling BOOM that brought fans (like myself) who stopped watching in 91-93 back into the fold. So, while Bret may have been played out as a babyface to those watching from 93-97, those people were few and far between.

 

The best example of this was Warrior's WCW return which garnered something absurd like 10 million viewers. He had only been off tv for a little over two years, but it seemed like 7 or 8 because nobody was watching his WWF return. 

 

Bischoff strikes me as someone who stepped in sh*t and has been trying to ride the wave ever since. The NWO was the one of first times the element of shootyness made its way into wrestling. Nash and Hall were using their real names and weren't playing characters. They were not the first ones do this but they were the first main eventers who went from being gimmicks to just being themselves. This got over huge. I do not think for a second this was Bischoff's intent. His intent was to lure the top names from the WWF and hope for the best.

[StretchMediatedHypertrophy]

Bret was definitely NOT played out as a babyface when he went to WCW. He was the most sympathetic man in wrestling at that point.

 

As for signs of mis-handling? The seemingly constant, often nonsensical turns. How many times did he turn in two years? At least five right?

 

He wasn't the most sympathetic man in wrestling, because he was still Bret Hart. Additionally, he couldn't feud with the people who wronged him.

 

Bret Hart came in as a babyface, turned heel to join with Hogan, turned babyface when Owen died, and turned heel again not too long afterwards. There was a couple of angles where he faked a face-turn but I don't think you can seriously count those. I have 3 turns for his whole tenure, with the babyface turn being dictated by events. Even when Owen died, they didn't keep him babyface for too long. 

[Matt D]

The initial heel turn is the issue. I think the general idea behind it was that he wanted to beat Hogan so he'd make sure he kept the belt until he had a shot at him, or something, but it really ended up making him seem like just another Hogan goon. Some of his momentum got gobbled up by Goldberg's rise too.

[Playa Shunna Ver 3.0]

If you don't think Bret Hart was mishandled in WCW then yi need to go back and watch WWF RAW and WCW Nitro form Nov 97 through Feb 98.  I have never seen so much momentum destroyed that quickly.  The Montreal should have built 2 huge stars right away.  Vince McMahon and Bret Hart.  Bret should have came in, cut a promo about being wronged and joining WCW to fight the good fight.  He should have helped Sting defeat Hogan at Starrcade and should have went directly into a program with Hogan in the ultimate good versus evil story.  Sting and Bret bring down the nWo, everyone makes a shit ton of money.  That would have been my booking.  Of course all the egos and shit would have gotten in the way.  Oh well.

[StretchMediatedHypertrophy]

The initial heel turn is the issue. I think the general idea behind it was that he wanted to beat Hogan so he'd make sure he kept the belt until he had a shot at him, or something, but it really ended up making him seem like just another Hogan goon. Some of his momentum got gobbled up by Goldberg's rise too.

 

I think they did enough for him not to be just a Hogan goon. There's some good stuff with DDP, Sting and others. I mean, sure we could all fantasy book that period of WCW a little better, I just think the idea that there was a ton of mileage in ace babyface Bret Hart is more than a little questionable and that really his run in WCW is more than a little underrated.

[The Natural]

If you don't think Bret Hart was mishandled in WCW then yi need to go back and watch WWF RAW and WCW Nitro form Nov 97 through Feb 98.  I have never seen so much momentum destroyed that quickly.  The Montreal should have built 2 huge stars right away.  Vince McMahon and Bret Hart.  Bret should have came in, cut a promo about being wronged and joining WCW to fight the good fight.  He should have helped Sting defeat Hogan at Starrcade and should have went directly into a program with Hogan in the ultimate good versus evil story.  Sting and Bret bring down the nWo, everyone makes a shit ton of money.  That would have been my booking.  Of course all the egos and shit would have gotten in the way.  Oh well.

 

Well said.

[Matt D]

 

The initial heel turn is the issue. I think the general idea behind it was that he wanted to beat Hogan so he'd make sure he kept the belt until he had a shot at him, or something, but it really ended up making him seem like just another Hogan goon. Some of his momentum got gobbled up by Goldberg's rise too.

 

I think they did enough for him not to be just a Hogan goon. There's some good stuff with DDP, Sting and others. I mean, sure we could all fantasy book that period of WCW a little better, I just think the idea that there was a ton of mileage in ace babyface Bret Hart is more than a little questionable and that really his run in WCW is more than a little underrated.

 

What was the value in making him heel before the Hogan match, except for to have Hogan leech off of his heat and make sure that he didn't have to put him over? 

[JohnnyJ]

The Montreal Screwjob for better or worse is a milestone event in wrestling history. It was an event that both companies could've made a ton of money off of. Instead, WCW made close to nothing off of it. Within weeks of debuting, Hart was just another guy.  

In no time, they had the "real" world champ feuding over the US title and fighting Will Sasso.

[caley]

 

says some usual dumb shit about no one knowing guys like Jericho and Guerrero until he made them big

 

He said the wrestling community knew who they were but the general audience didn't. That's dumb shit?

 

 

Actually he's completely wrong on another level, as well.  He says Jericho was wrestling in Mexico somewhere and acted like he plucked him out of obscurity when he was in ECW, so reasonably visible to a good portion of the wrestling-viewing public.

 

 

 

He wasn't the most sympathetic man in wrestling, because he was still Bret Hart. Additionally, he couldn't feud with the people who wronged him.

On the first point, he was still sympathetic because this is pre-biography/pre-documentary Bret Hart.  So no one really knew him that well.  And, he's the not only the most sympathetic man in wrestling, he's still basically the uncrowned champion of the WWF because he never lost the match or belt, in kayfabe, and real-world terms.  WCW should have got him to bring in a WWE title and carry it around and say that he's the real world champion, that no one can take the title away from him  a la Flair in the early 90s, then build to a Hart-Hogan/Sting 'Undispited' World Championship match.

 

 

 

 

 

Bret Hart came in as a babyface, turned heel to join with Hogan, turned babyface when Owen died, and turned heel again not too long afterwards. There was a couple of angles where he faked a face-turn but I don't think you can seriously count those. I have 3 turns for his whole tenure, with the babyface turn being dictated by events. Even when Owen died, they didn't keep him babyface for too long.

I think there's a whole bunch more in there.  He came in as a member of the NWO with the NWO celebrating him as part of the group, then it was a swerve and he was against the NWO (That's 1).  He had that confusing run where he was a good guy but feuding with another good guy in Flair (But we'll ignore that as a turn) then he actually turned heel by joining the NWO (That's 2).  You had Hart asking for forgiveness and challenging Hogan, then swerving the fans to attack Sting (That's 3, or maybe 4).  He turned face again shortly into the new year announcing he was going after the title and the whole Goldberg deal with the metal plate (Which WCW actually wanted him to align with Hogan again afterwards, but that's 4).  Then his brother died.  He returned as a face, then nonsensically joined the NWO (That's 5).  Then you had him come back once more, post-injury, where he came in and attacked Hogan with a chair (Unclear if that's another turn, so we'll leave it at 5).  But, yeah, even throwing aside the occasional Nitro where Hart acts like a good guy, then turns heel by the end of the night, that's still at least 5 turns/swerves.  Keep in mind that's just over the course of 1 and a half calendar years.  Your biggest stars don't turn that much over the course of their careers, much less one calendar years, it kills any kind of fan momentum because you don't want to start cheering for him, knowing full well he's going to turn heel at the end of the night.

[Yo-Yo's Roomie]

I think they should have started Bret off in a programme with Nash, based off the subtext that Nash and Shawn are best buds. Bret and Nash always had good chemistry, and it's a big name for Bret to go through before doing the Bret/Hogan match, which surely should have been the main objective.

[SirSmUgly]

 

Bisch had his hugely successful run for 3ish years.  Then he struck out.  A lot.

 

It's not that uncommon for someone to book a red hot run somewhere, and never be able to recapture it. 

 

 

And, I mean, it's pro wrestling, of course he will claim as much credit as possible for anything he can.

I felt like The real NwO run was like 1 mango season and that's it.  Once they saw it working....they killed it by diluting the crap out of it.  But the original build was pretty good and built them a good fanbase that to the WWF like 2 years to chip away at.

 

 

Yeah, but for about a year BEFORE the nWo run, Bischoff was booking the best weekly television in the U.S. He booked Flair/Savage and those early Nitros before the nWo comes in are fantastic viewing, as is WCWSN for all of 1995. So even if you feel that the nWo thing got tiresome by mid-1997, he still had at least two years of great booking to his name.

[Kaptain Kayfabe]

The big problem with the nWo was that it eventually just fizzled out - nobody every defeated it and destroyed it. The first step should have been Sting beating Hogan at Starrcade. Then they could have broken it off to Hogan/Hart and Sting/Nash/Hall whoever for a few months. Do a big War Games with Hogan/Nash/Hall/Giant/Savage vs. Sting/Bret/Luger/Goldberg/DDP. Between those 10 guys, you could easily have gotten another year of compelling storylines. The fact that the never did a really big Sting vs. Bret Hart Scorpion vs. Sharpshooter match is mind-boggling. But back to the nWo. Adding every former WWE guy on the roster (and that started in late '96 even) didn't help either. VK Wallstreet had no business being on national TV in 1997, for example. The Wolfpac was a horrible idea. By the time the lWo rolled around it was just a parody of a parody. 

 

It was mentioned earlier that the only reason Hart aligned with Hogan was so Hogan could leech off his heat and not have to put him over - and sadly that's probably at least partially true. We talk about Triple H being a guy who loves to bury people, but he has at least made a few stars over the years. Hogan is and always has been about Hogan. Bret had the momentum coming in where he should have been programmed at the top against whoever the biggest heel was - and the fact that he flip-flopped and fooled around with the US title for as long as he did just goes to show that someone couldn't put their ego aside long enough to actually let the company make money with somebody else.

[StretchMediatedHypertrophy]

 

 

The initial heel turn is the issue. I think the general idea behind it was that he wanted to beat Hogan so he'd make sure he kept the belt until he had a shot at him, or something, but it really ended up making him seem like just another Hogan goon. Some of his momentum got gobbled up by Goldberg's rise too.

 

I think they did enough for him not to be just a Hogan goon. There's some good stuff with DDP, Sting and others. I mean, sure we could all fantasy book that period of WCW a little better, I just think the idea that there was a ton of mileage in ace babyface Bret Hart is more than a little questionable and that really his run in WCW is more than a little underrated.

 

What was the value in making him heel 

 

Bret Hart was a really good heel, and played out as a babyface. I appreciate that you think that Montreal makes Bret Hart a huge untouchable babyface, but Bret Hart had became a whiny prick and just plain difficult to like. Even if we didn't know it yet, he was still nuts.

 

Bret Hart was a heel in the Goldberg angle, most definitely. I don't see swerves as turns - they're swerves. I'm sticking with 3.

 

I think the Nash feud idea is pretty smart. Obviously yeah, Hogan was a problem politically no matter how much Bischoff wants to downplay it, but that's not 100% on Bischoff and I'm not sure I would have used him much differently anyway. They had Goldberg as their number one, and Bret Hart was a guy who Vince didn't see as a top guy anymore.

 

The thing about Bret is that even his push in WWE was half-hearted. Think about it; second WWE Title reign happens because Yokozuna falls over (possibly with assistance from Piper). Diesel, who is nothing at that point, beats him by DQ with Neidhart saving Hart's title. Yeah he goes over Owen (big deal really) in the cage, and looks valiant in losing his title to Backlund, but he only wins the title again after Nash has a momentary lapse of compassion and Hart takes advantage. Bret Hart goes on to having title matches against Taker and Diesel where both pwn him and only interference saves him. He then loses the Ironman to Michaels. Truth is that Austin is the only guy who ever really put him over! Backlund didn't even say I Quit!

 

Bret's beloved among big wrestling fans, but you're essentially asking Hogan and Bischoff to give Hart more than Vince ever much cared to.

[RandomAct]

The big problem with the nWo was that it eventually just fizzled out - nobody every defeated it and destroyed it. The first step should have been Sting beating Hogan at Starrcade. Then they could have broken it off to Hogan/Hart and Sting/Nash/Hall whoever for a few months. Do a big War Games with Hogan/Nash/Hall/Giant/Savage vs. Sting/Bret/Luger/Goldberg/DDP. Between those 10 guys, you could easily have gotten another year of compelling storylines. The fact that the never did a really big Sting vs. Bret Hart Scorpion vs. Sharpshooter match is mind-boggling. But back to the nWo. Adding every former WWE guy on the roster (and that started in late '96 even) didn't help either. VK Wallstreet had no business being on national TV in 1997, for example. The Wolfpac was a horrible idea. By the time the lWo rolled around it was just a parody of a parody. 

 

It was mentioned earlier that the only reason Hart aligned with Hogan was so Hogan could leech off his heat and not have to put him over - and sadly that's probably at least partially true. We talk about Triple H being a guy who loves to bury people, but he has at least made a few stars over the years. Hogan is and always has been about Hogan. Bret had the momentum coming in where he should have been programmed at the top against whoever the biggest heel was - and the fact that he flip-flopped and fooled around with the US title for as long as he did just goes to show that someone couldn't put their ego aside long enough to actually let the company make money with somebody else.

Case in point is the story about how the Bret Hart/Goldberg "chest plate" angle was being brought up.  Bret pitched it, and Hogan was trying to find a way to work himself into it, even though it would have lead to absolutely nothing.

[Craig H]

Well, Bischoff, when he was on Austin's podcast, said that they would have production meetings with Hogan. He sounded like he defended Hogan by saying Hogan wouldn't exercise creative control. People could pitch whatever they wanted and Hogan, especially if in regard to his character (and his friend's characters), would come back with "ok, and then what?" He then claimed Hogan had such a brilliant mind that if whomever was pitching said idea couldn't quickly say what would happen next, Hogan was shoot the idea down and everyone would just roll with that. It's amazing that after all these years he's still drinking Hogan's Kool-Aid. It also shows you just how so many ideas and booking directions would get completely fucked over by Hogan.

[StretchMediatedHypertrophy]

Well, Bischoff, when he was on Austin's podcast, said that they would have production meetings with Hogan. He sounded like he defended Hogan by saying Hogan wouldn't exercise creative control. People could pitch whatever they wanted and Hogan, especially if in regard to his character (and his friend's characters), would come back with "ok, and then what?" He then claimed Hogan had such a brilliant mind that if whomever was pitching said idea couldn't quickly say what would happen next, Hogan was shoot the idea down and everyone would just roll with that. It's amazing that after all these years he's still drinking Hogan's Kool-Aid. It also shows you just how so many ideas and booking directions would get completely fucked over by Hogan.

 

Clearly Bischoff is still covering for Hogan, but Steve Austin pointed out that he himself said no to a whole lot of things.

[Kaptain Kayfabe]

Now I will say this, I was a huge Bret Hart fan up until 1996. I was glad to see HBK beat him at 'Mania. Then Bret took his little vacation which basically was the first glimpse into his mindset - he wasn't going to be the featured guy, so he didn't want to be there. The feud with Austin was an all time classic because as early as September of '96 it was clear that Austin was the future mega-star and Bret needed to lose to him. Even though it was a character on TV, the whiny Bret Hart of early '97 came across so authentic that it had to have been based somewhat in reality. Coming off the Montreal Screwjob he absolutely should have been positioned as a babyface. Get the Hogan match, maybe a match with a motivated Savage or Nash out of the way and have him turn on Sting around September '98. Bret didn't even have to beat Sting - although if he would have he could have easily been used as a transitional champion to Goldberg. I agree that the real money with Hart long term would have been as a heel in WCW, but he should have started as a babyface because of what happened in his exit from WWF. Think about it - WCW was basically handed "the real world champion" on a silver platter and did NOTHING to make money off that fact. That's inexcusable. WWF may have bungled Flair in '91, but at least they attempted to do the right angle with him. 

[Playa Shunna Ver 3.0]

Man, people are so hard on Bret Hart.  They seem to forget the guy worked full time on the road for WWF since 1984, always working hard, and most of the time having the best match on the card.  The dude was shit on for years and had to fight like a dog to get where he was at.  If there was ever an example of paying your dues it was Hart.  One of the reasons he was dropping the title was to get some time off, away from the spotlight.  Bret would have had that belt back within months of Shawn's terrible drawing if he was still around.  Not to mention all the off the radar wrestling camps Bret was having at his fucking house during this period, working with guys like Henry, Shamrock, Edge, and on and on.  Sure the guy had an attitude and thought he was the best.  Anyone who is great at what they do and is ultra competitive does.  Maybe he believes his own hype, so do most guys who get to the top.  If you want to talk about guys who left because they weren't featured the way they wanted you would have a huge list.  Bret Hart wouldn't be anywhere near the top.  And by the way, let's not act like Bret had nothing to be bitter about for years.  The legacy he built was forever tarnished.  His closest brother is killed in an in ring accident.  Friends and family dying young.  Dude had every right to be bitter, but he was still good to his fans and told it like it was.  When Warrior recently called the WWE out on their bullshit DVD he was a hero.  When Bret called them out he was full of himself, or a mark, or a complainer.  My dad met Bret in an airport.  He introduced himself and told him that Bret was my childhood idol.  Bret stopped in the middle of the airport, went through his carry on, found an 8x10, wrote a personal thank you, and signed it.  What a bitter prick right?  Rant over.

[Cristobal]

 WWF may have bungled Flair in '91, but at least they attempted to do the right angle with him. 

 

WWF drew money with Flair. That's more than WCW managed with Hart.