Examining post-prime wrestlers

[SirSmUgly]

One of the posters that has regularly posted here for years, Matt D I believe, often makes an argument that you can tell a lot about the quality of worker that someone is by seeing what they do when they lose their physical tools and have to rely on other things to work a strong match. 

 

I have always been intrigued by this argument because I think there is a lot of merit in seeing what elements beyond physical work that wrestlers bring to the table in order to see who was very good and who was really great in the ring.

 

I thought about typing this in a few places, but I figured that it might deserve its own thread. In this thread, I want to look at matches from different wrestlers that are out of their physical prime and try to evaluate them to get a sense of how great wrestlers compensate for a loss of physical talent. I will try to come back to this thread with some looks at different wrestlers that I feel comfortable evaluating in terms of their post-prime work. 

 

I of course invite others to share their thoughts, as I'm really intrigued by the idea. I'm going to try to source most matches through the Network as it is easier for me to type and watch on my television, but if there are any matches that people think I should consider that are not viewable on the Network, I can always find them elsewhere. We'll see how this goes.

 

Hollywood Hulk Hogan vs. The Rock (WrestleMania X8, April 2002)

 

I have decided to start here and look at the Hulkster because I truly loved his 2002-2003 run in WWE, and he was the first person that I really thought of when contemplating this topic. I think Hogan doesn't get enough credit for engaging the audience in whatever he's doing, and of course he got tons of crap for not working matches like Ric Flair back in the '80s. At this point in 2002, he's in his late-forties and has clearly physically broken down quite a bit. However, this match is great, and not just because of the molten crowd. In fact, both Hogan and The Rock do a fine job of provoking the audience even further. 

 

The two start with a face-off. I like that Hogan is pointing and talking some smack while the Rock just stares. They do that great shot where they look at the crowd going bananas before looking back at one another. The crowd goes even NUTTIER somehow with that acknowledgement. Then, Hogan starts talking shit just as the bell rings and the crowd loses it. 

 

Hogan and Rock lock-up and match power. Hogan wins the lock up, poses, and tells Rock to bring it. Just through trash talking and mockery, you know Hogan doesn't care how old he is; he really believes he's winning this one. Hogan poses again after a shoulderblock and really fires up the crowd, then beckons the Rock to keep fighting. For his part, Rocky has these great facials where you can tell he's figuring out just what the hell he walked into with a re-vitalized Hogan and a crowd that's nuts for him. 

 

I also want to give the Rock credit for his selling here. He does his sort of wacky selling bordering on over-selling, but it works here when he's selling getting a beat-down from an icon in this moment. Rock finally hits an offensive move, a clothesline, and tells Hogan to bring it. Hogan, for his part, sells not only pain but surprise that Rock hit him so hard. Now, both these guys are taking one another more seriously than they were before this first sequence. 

 

In frustration, Hogan shoves Rock, and he has this great look of DID YOU JUST TOUCH ME, THE GREAT HULK HOGAN?! disgust on his face when Rock shoves him back. Rock takes control here and eventually goes for a Rock Bottom, but Hogan escapes and takes control. Love his double-elbowdrop followed by feigning a third elbowdrop and then raking the face with the boot, just to remind you that he's still a cocky douche. Hogan throws a terrible looking kick in the corner and then loses control back to the Rock, who is fired up and punches Hogan before firing up and celebrating toward the crowd, which draws boos. He then turns around, immediately whiffs a punch, and gets suplexed. 

 

Hogan, in control, tries a rollup and only gets two, then stares down the ref for a bit. Hogan punches and then bites The Rock to the joy of the crowd, and Rock takes control, punches Hogan, and mock holds his hand to his ear, clearly deciding that he's just going to roll with provoking the crowd here. 

 

Hogan gets control again and just starts choking Rock with some tape before the two trade punches to the crowds delight. Hogan sidesteps a Rock clothesline and dishes him outside. Every time Rock gets some momentum going, Hogan uses his wily veteran-ness to get the advantage back. Experience is trumping youth so far. 

 

After some brawling outside, The Rock, who can't get momentum going, totally loses his cool and goes for a chair, but Hogan cuts him off. Then, inside the ring, Hogan clubs the Rock right into the ref. Again, Hogan is doing whatever he can to keep an advantage, pulling out every veteran trick he can, especially since Rock hit him with that clothesline and he realized he was in for a fight. His experience is what is keeping him just in front of the Rock. I also like that the one time so far Rock has tried to cheat, with the chair, he stupidly did so right in front of the ref - not a mistake Hogan would make, and Rock pays for it. 

 

While the ref is out, Rock eventually hits Hogan with a spinebuster to get out of trouble, then goes for a Sharpshooter. For the first time, The Rock takes advantage of the ref being out to pull Hogan off the ropes, but the ref is still out when Hogan taps - The Rock has ultimately made another tactical error. While Rock tries to get the ref up - and then is distracted by the crowd - Hogan thinks up another way out of trouble - a low blow, that he follows with a Rock Bottom and a cover as the ref crawls over, but it only gets two. 

 

The ref is still mostly out, so Hogan decides to take advantage. He gets this GREAT look of evil ideas brewing over his face and takes off his weight belt. The crowd absolutely LOVES it. However, even after nailing The Rock, eventually Rock's youth takes over, and he gets a reversal and then uses the belt himself. Rock is feeling it, but he's underestimated Hogan, who is still HULK FUCKING HOGAN, and thus gives no fucks about Rock's Rock Bottom, kicking out and beginning to hulk up. Hogan at this point works this gimmick where he still finds it in him to be 1986 Hogan at some point during the match, and you have to weather that storm to beat him. Rock has a great OH SHIT face as Hogan points at him. Big boot, leg drop, but the leg drop doesn't have the same power when 48-year-old Hogan does it as when 28-year-old Hogan does it, and The Rock is still The Rock, so he kicks out. 

 

Hogan is shocked at the kickout and wanders around a bit, selling that he has to figure out how to follow up. He sets up for another big boot-legdrop, but he misses the second one, and The Rock, who now fully respects the veteran wiliness and inner-Hulkupiness of Hogan, hits a Rock Bottom and immediately goes for and hits another one before then also hitting Hogan with a People's Elbow juuuuuuust to make sure for the three count. 

 

After the match, Hogan slumps over, selling his ribs and looking humbled. Hogan underestimated The Rock's ability and paid for it. At the same time, The Rock shows respect to Hogan. What I like is that the finish shows how Rock learned first-hand why Hogan was so great back in the day and he makes damn well sure Hogan stays down by using three straight finishers on him before going for a pinfall. 

 

As for Hogan's performance, he had AWESOME facial expressions to sell surprise and his look on his face after he gets beat and asks for a handshake is wonderful. His eyes are cast down and he has a truly humbled look on his face, like a dog that's trying to apologize for getting into the trash can while you were gone. Everything he did made sense. He was cocky at first like old school Hogan, but Rock hitting him with that explosive jumping clothesline let him know that he was in for a fight with a younger, hungrier lion. From then on, everything he did was designed to use every trick he had in his bag to keep Rock off guard and stifle the younger man's athleticism and explosiveness. Eventually, however, the youth of the Rock overcame Hogan's veteran knowledge. As a match with MOVEZ, this was nothing, but in telling a story, Hogan was great, especially in what he chose to do and when and also in terms of his great facial expressions. 

 

This is a match that, every time I see it, really is the one that cements how truly great a worker Hulk Hogan was. This is just an incredible performance on his part. 

 

I'm hoping to re-watch Hogan/Brock from Smackdown! next to see Hogan in a bigger, more obvious underdog role where the explicitly-stated  story is that Hogan is over-the-hill and the younger guy is just a monster as we come into the match. I would like to compare that match to this one. 

[Go2Sleep]

How about Steve Austin vs. The Rock (WM 19)?

 

That match always stood out to me as two legends finishing a story arc that began nearly 6 years prior despite neither being full time, and in Austin's case, very broken down. It's my favorite of their WM trilogy just for the storyline. The parallels to Misawa vs. Kobashi (3/1/03) which happened in the same month are rather striking. Each match features two legends, but one was always perceived as a step behind the other, and needed a big singles win to round out his legacy.

 

Both of those matches would be worth a look for this type of project.

[TerjeRUN]

Excellent topic idea. 

 

I'll go with the Benoit / Hart, Owen tribute match. Bret's best days were behind him at this point, yet he knew he had to deliver on this one. It was the last classic match of the Hitman's career, smack in the ninth hour of his rotten WCW tenure. 

[Phantom Lord]

I'll go with Ric Flair vs. Triple H Taboo Tuesday Steel Cage match. Flair was way past his prime and at this point his entire offense was chops, testicular claws, more chops, and the figure four. But despite all that he still had the magic of being Ric Flair and getting a crowd behind him and had probably the last great blood soaked steel cage match ever in the WWE. At this point all Flair had left was taking a beating and bleeding half to death and that in of it self told a great story. You watch this match and others (the I Quit with Foley, TLC with Edge, Hardcore with Big Show) and it's the same story. Flair might die before our eyes but he's gonna give it all he's got somehow.

[StretchMediatedHypertrophy]

How about Steve Austin vs. The Rock (WM 19)?

 

That match always stood out to me as two legends finishing a story arc that began nearly 6 years prior despite neither being full time, and in Austin's case, very broken down. It's my favorite of their WM trilogy just for the storyline. The parallels to Misawa vs. Kobashi (3/1/03) which happened in the same month are rather striking. Each match features two legends, but one was always perceived as a step behind the other, and needed a big singles win to round out his legacy.

 

Both of those matches would be worth a look for this type of project.

 

I love that match, but Austin wasn't so much past his prime as coming out of a hospital bed - although you could argue that Austin still pulls out a miracle, The Rock completely carries this match. Kudos to Austin for giving The Rock such a decisive victory though; it's quite an unique match in that respect. 

[AND THE BEAT GOES ON!]

I watched Rock-Hogan recently and I feel the match just belongs to the crowd. It's fun as fuck watching them go apeshit for Hogan's back rakes and the weight belt but then i felt they didn't really change their orginal game plan much to roll with the crowd. They were ready to go wild for Hogan no matter what, and they did.

It's a cliche to say that the match is fun but hard to judge as truly 'good' or 'great', but I think it's broadly fair. Over time the emphasis on the board has gone from workrate to crowd-working in the time since the match. It's certainly not a workrate classic but then I don't think it does a lot to work the crowd either. I liked watching it though.

[GojiColin]

The Undertaker seems like the perfect guy for this.  You could probably call the period where he became a Wrestlemania only attraction as the point he was 'past his prime' (if not even earler) and you would have a guy who if he didn't steal the show at Wrestlemania had one of the best matches every year.

[Go2Sleep]

I love that match, but Austin wasn't so much past his prime as coming out of a hospital bed - although you could argue that Austin still pulls out a miracle, The Rock completely carries this match. Kudos to Austin for giving The Rock such a decisive victory though; it's quite an unique match in that respect. 

 

I'd say Austin was definitely past his prime. He may not have been super old, but injuries had wrecked him by that point. It was his last match, after all. The Rock definitely carried it (although he was a bit past his heyday at this point too), but Austin doing the bare minimum would have been commendable. You can see him struggling to get up for the last rock bottom, and he really did leave it all in the ring as the old cliche goes.

 

Another one worth watching is Ric Flair vs. Mick Foley (I Quit, Summer Slam 06). I think it was the last great match either guy had, and it's got a great story of two crazy old guys who know they can't compete for the top championships anymore, but still want to beat the hell out of one another for personal pride. Possibly the best match I've seen live.

[RandomAct]

How about Steve Austin vs. The Rock (WM 19)?

 

That match always stood out to me as two legends finishing a story arc that began nearly 6 years prior despite neither being full time, and in Austin's case, very broken down. It's my favorite of their WM trilogy just for the storyline. The parallels to Misawa vs. Kobashi (3/1/03) which happened in the same month are rather striking. Each match features two legends, but one was always perceived as a step behind the other, and needed a big singles win to round out his legacy.

 

Both of those matches would be worth a look for this type of project.

3/1/03 is a great call.  On it's own, it's not the best match, but when you consider it in context with the rest of that rivalry, it's really brilliant.  It's a match I used to not appreciate, but really came around on.  This was like Obi Wan vs Vader in A New Hope.  The passion and desire are still there, but the physical gifts have eroded, so they resort to this taxing, bomb chucking type match in hopes of ending it ASAP.

[Chaos]

It's been forever since I've seen it, so I cannot speak to any real meaningful segments, but wouldn't Bret Hart vs. Bob Backlund where Backlund wins the title be one of the standard bearers for something like this?

[Kuetsar]

It's been forever since I've seen it, so I cannot speak to any real meaningful segments, but wouldn't Bret Hart vs. Bob Backlund where Backlund wins the title be one of the standard bearers for something like this?

Backlund is a weird case, as he left the national scene at a relatively young age, then had a short(ish) return to the national scene. I mean if early/mid forties washed up(and I grant its guy-by-guy) but Flair was going sixty minutes at the 1992 Royal Rumble at that age. . . 

[Phantom Lord]

 

It's been forever since I've seen it, so I cannot speak to any real meaningful segments, but wouldn't Bret Hart vs. Bob Backlund where Backlund wins the title be one of the standard bearers for something like this?

Backlund is a weird case, as he left the national scene at a relatively young age, then had a short(ish) return to the national scene. I mean if early/mid forties washed up(and I grant its guy-by-guy) but Flair was going sixty minutes at the 1992 Royal Rumble at that age. . . 

 

 

Backlund is a freak of nature. I would say he was no where near washed up or past prime when he came back to the WWF in 1992. He wrestled the same exactly style of match that he did when he was at the top of his game. The only time I would say he was past his prime was when they turned him into a parody of himself as Mr. Bob Backlund: Presidential Candidate.

 

Hell even when he was in TNA a few years ago when he would just randomly show up and had that odd feud with Alex Shelley, he was still in great shape. But it's not fair to say he's past his prime. He transitioned from serious wrestler to comedy act. It's not like he had to go out and wrestle serious matches. I'm sure if TNA had a clue and used him in a serious legends role he could have done so greatly. He's what...64 now? When I saw him at The Barclays Center at a WWE house show last September (he was doing that take a pic and get it on WWE magazine thing) he looked in amazing shape. Compared to a broken down Ric Flair, Backlund probably could if he were inclined to go 20-30 minutes without looking like hell.

[Matt D]

I haven't had any time to touch this over the last few days, but obviously, it's near and dear to me so I'm glad people are looking at it and I'll contribute when I get a chance. 

[ivpvideos]

Rick Martels WCW run in 1998 came out of nowhere and had an excellent string of matches before he blew his knee out.

[Josh Mann]

Then there's the weird case of Dustin Rhodes, who SHOULD be past his prime but is a better worker at 45 than he was at 30. That doesn't have a lot of precident to it.

[odessasteps]

Then there's the weird case of Dustin Rhodes, who SHOULD be past his prime but is a better worker at 45 than he was at 30. That doesn't have a lot of precident to it.

I will prob be posting Matt's article on Dustin's career on the magqzine site sometime this week.

[Matt D]

There's not a lot in the first part of the article about Dustin's resurgence, admittedly. 

 

Then there's the weird case of Dustin Rhodes, who SHOULD be past his prime but is a better worker at 45 than he was at 30. That doesn't have a lot of precident to it.

 

I think the key word here is worker, because it highlights the athleticism now, and yes, he's super athletic, bucking a trend and sort of blurring the line. If we leave the idea of workrate out of it, it's more interesting to me. When it comes to controlling an audience and understanding psychology and what to do, when and why, in order to get the maximum response possible, it makes a lot of sense to me that a wrestler would be better at this at 45 than 30. 

 

Dustin, in the documentary on the network, says that he's out there to tell stories, and who knows if that's a mindset he had fifteen years ago or a mindset that most 30 year olds in wrestling have today?

[Zheroen]

William Regal may merit some consideration here, as he battled a lot of substance issues during what in theory should have been his athletic prime, and ended up coming back much stronger overall as a worker in his late thirties.

[KidNatural]

I can't believe no one has mentioned Finlay's Smackdown run or Terry Funk yet.

[Curt McGirt]

Goddammit I was just about to mention Terry. I mean he started busting out moonsaults to get over with the crowd. 

[ebbie]

You say that like Terry is a mere mortal like the rest of us.

 

 

But I think Taker is an iffy choice. To be honest, I would say the last match of his I truly thought was awesome and could probably watch more than a couple of times was the No Way Out 2006 match with Kurt Angle. It was a dead crowd, but you expect that from a SD crowd. But at least it wasn't cringe worthy to watch him do chair shots, land like he wasn't physically able to get back up or go 1 - 2 hours just to get the crowd to pop for spots.

 

I guess the same could be said for Angle.

[Go2Sleep]

I can't believe no one has mentioned Finlay's Smackdown run or Terry Funk yet.

 

Finlay's kind of a weird case. He was nearly 40 when he started working in WCW, so he should have been well out of his athletic prime by the time most of us starting watching him. Admittedly, I haven't seen much of him pre-WCW (just the odd NJ match here and there), so I don't have a lot to compare his North American work to. When he went to SD, he had taken several years off prior, so while he may have been old, he had a lot less mileage on his body than you'd expect for someone that age.

[thee Reverend Axl Future]

I also chime in that this is an excellent topic. In excess it can be intolerable (as with anything), but many "Memphis style" of workers can and have continued well past their physical prime (Lawler, Dundee, Landel, et al) w/o an inordinate reliance on shtick (Valiant (forgive me Boogie Woogie)). The psychology pf working has always been most interesting to me, and controlling a crowd is the apex of the art. I too will put more thoughts down soon,

- RAF

[cool arrow]

How about the Bockwinkel-Hennig 60-minute Broadway?

[LooseCannon]

I'd like to hear about some good examples of past-their-prime singles stars who compensated by becoming tag team wrestlers to better hide their increasing limitations.