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Watching NXT, and holy fuck did Comacho bury the fuck out of Oliver Grey. Welcome back Oliver.

 

They're setting Camacho up for a feud with Adam Rose before Rose gets called up.

 

 

I get that, but why sacrifice a guy coming back after a year from injury, especially by having his first opponent not only squash him, but literally laugh in his face when he tries to go on offense?

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Watching NXT, and holy fuck did Comacho bury the fuck out of Oliver Grey. Welcome back Oliver.

 

They're setting Camacho up for a feud with Adam Rose before Rose gets called up.

 

 

I get that, but why sacrifice a guy coming back after a year from injury, especially by having his first opponent not only squash him, but literally laugh in his face when he tries to go on offense?

 

 

Might they be going for something where he comes back from injury, hits a bad run of luck for a couple of months, then turns on former partner Adrian Neville out of jealousy? I hope that's what it is, because he seems like he has potential from what little I've seen of him.

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911 was one of Heyman's greatest illusions. He was great in his role as the monster who would come in and throw out a chokeslam and leave. But he really wasn't all that big size wise compared to a lot of guys in the WCW, which took away his mystique. He also couldn't work a lick.

 

The Public Enemy might have been Heyman's greatest trick. They were just as important (and maybe more so) as Shane Douglas and Sabu and Terry Funk and Cactus Jack in helping ECW enter the national consciousness in 1994 and 95. But as soon as they left the confines of the Arena, they tanked. And they tanked so bad that they couldn't even get a hero's welcome coming back to ECW. The veil got lifted.

I agree with this, but wrestling is an illusion. Politics and attitude aside, promoters and bookers can in theory take any small, out of shape, and/or old worker, give him a push and get him over. Sometimes it works and everybody makes money. Burying someone is easy. Making someone (some people more than others) a star is hard. It's often stated, but it's true: Heyman had less to work with (talent and $ and production) and he made the most of it, better than many other (lazy, overpaid, reactionary) bookers could have. He laid the groundwork and many of the other original ECW guys (again: politics and attitude aside) could have gotten over if given a legit push. Taz or Raven or RVD or the Dudleys could have gone the way of PE or Sabu or Hak or 911.

dangerously,

RAF

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How about that entire Undertaker/DDP feud?

DDP was buried so deep, he was never able to fully recover after that. Even Kanyon got buried in the process.

 

Oh my GOD, yes.  Page doing a fucking job for Sara was the absolute worst.

 

I misread that and was trying to figure out which Diva Sara was and why her going over Paige was such a sin.

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A-Ri as the "generic evening sports radio host" of the WWE is a perfectly fine slot for him.

The Apple not falling far from the tree. I would suspect his father could help him greatly developing that kind of character.

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911 was one of Heyman's greatest illusions. He was great in his role as the monster who would come in and throw out a chokeslam and leave. But he really wasn't all that big size wise compared to a lot of guys in the WCW, which took away his mystique. He also couldn't work a lick.

 

The Public Enemy might have been Heyman's greatest trick. They were just as important (and maybe more so) as Shane Douglas and Sabu and Terry Funk and Cactus Jack in helping ECW enter the national consciousness in 1994 and 95. But as soon as they left the confines of the Arena, they tanked. And they tanked so bad that they couldn't even get a hero's welcome coming back to ECW. The veil got lifted.

I agree with this, but wrestling is an illusion. Politics and attitude aside, promoters and bookers can in theory take any small, out of shape, and/or old worker, give him a push and get him over. Sometimes it works and everybody makes money. Burying someone is easy. Making someone (some people more than others) a star is hard. It's often stated, but it's true: Heyman had less to work with (talent and $ and production) and he made the most of it, better than many other (lazy, overpaid, reactionary) bookers could have. He laid the groundwork and many of the other original ECW guys (again: politics and attitude aside) could have gotten over if given a legit push. Taz or Raven or RVD or the Dudleys could have gone the way of PE or Sabu or Hak or 911.

dangerously,

RAF

 

 

Oh 100%. ECW's big run is my favorite wrestling era ever. Going to ECW shows in person was an allure for me to go to college in Philly. That's no joke. People who hate on ECW fail to realize just how great Paul E. was at putting guys in the right spots. The Sandman's a huge example of this. Heyman said on Austin's podcast that he was the diarrhea in the ring. But the character was so friggin' white trash cool that it just hit the right spots, especially since so many of the ECW fans in Philly were dudes just like that. When you take him out of those confines, he wouldn't work and it was pretty clear.

Heyman's powers at his peak were so insanely great. It was totally on the performer if they couldn't get over in ECW (until it's post-network days).

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Zack Ryder [...] is one of my least favorite wrestlers ever.

 

 

Ha, agreed. Everything about him is so irritating. I love this photo. The expression on Punk's face and the way his arm isn't outstretched looks like he doesn't want to get Ryder's grime on him (which I know isn't the case, but it's so fitting and was caught at the absolute perfect time): 

 

RAW_969_Photo_004.jpg

 

Given Ryder doesn't really fill much of a role these days, I was thinking he could be a goobery heel jobber who thinks he's a babyface. Creative wouldn't have to change much. Then again, Heath Slater fills that role more effectively. 

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Not to derail the thread, but this is relevant to the topic at hand...do you (the collective you) really feel like a wrestler getting buried is something that really damages a wrestler in the eyes of the fans (the fan fans, not the smart marks)? I honestly don't think it matters, I think most WWE fans have a short memory and any wrestler that's been buried there could potentially dig himself out of the hole with the right booking, granted that wrestler isn't completely horrible.

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The Rock when he beat The Dudleys in a handicap match. Not because it's actually a burial but because people still believe Triple H blindsiding Londrick is somehow worse than The Rock actually defeating the tag champions by himself.

People see London/Kendrick as worse because they wanted more for those guys, whereas I don't think anyone wanted to see the Dudleys pushed harder and they had accomplished enough so it didn't feel like their momentum was being halted.

 

They held the titles for a year and had a bunch of fun little spotfests...  that was their ceiling. They loved to flip and smoke weed. Nothing wrong with that. People acting like they could have been so much more....  nah. I don't see it.

It felt like there were some deluded fans who thought that Kendrick could be what Daniel Bryan is now, but those people would be all for pushing any random little flippy dude over HHH.

London/Kendrick and HHH were all babyfaces at the time, and HHH squashed them for no reason.

Yeah, the thing I always hated about this was how pointless it was. Londrick were faces making the save for HHH and getting beaten down by him for their efforts. If in 2000, the Hardys had made the save for the Rock and he'd given them both the Rock Bottom, I'm sure people would equally have shat on that.

 

 

Austin used to give the stunner to anyone including women. See: Stacy.

 

Care to explain why that's not mentioned as a complaint?

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I've just accepted that, you know what, I don't know a damn thing about the wrestling business.  I've been watching for 20+ years and I just know what I like.  Wrestling promotions can do whatever the hell they want; they're probably in a better position than any fan to judge who is and isn't "worthwhile".  If things work out?  Great.  If they don't?  They'll lose money and that affects them, not me.

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I recall people complaining about Stacy getting stunnered here, actually, particularly since that was an egregious case - not only was she a woman, she was a face that got stunnered just because she didn't want to drink any beer.

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Not to derail the thread, but this is relevant to the topic at hand...do you (the collective you) really feel like a wrestler getting buried is something that really damages a wrestler in the eyes of the fans (the fan fans, not the smart marks)? I honestly don't think it matters, I think most WWE fans have a short memory and any wrestler that's been buried there could potentially dig himself out of the hole with the right booking, granted that wrestler isn't completely horrible.

 

I don't think there's a universal answer, it's going to depend on a lot of different things. I'd say guys like Zack Ryder, and more recently, Damian Sandow are definitely hurt by being booked like losers for a prolonged period of time. Remember that time Ryder shared the ring with Bryan and Punk and they all had gold? Compare his reactions then to now. Sometimes booking can out-stubborn the fans and make them stop caring about guys they used to really like (also see: Nigel in TNA) I don't think MVP ever really recovered from his losing streak either.

 

On the other hand, Daniel Bryan got booked like a massive loser on a show full of terrible wrestlers for 3 months then got fired right after his "break through moment" and look where he is now. Matt Hardy went on to have a very successful and acclaimed midcard run after looking like a chump in the Edge/Lita feud. Kane and Show have come back from god knows how many embarrassing angles/losses to have credible runs at the top.

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To be frank, the only time Zack Ryder entertained me was getting pushed off the stage in the wheel chair. I mean good for him for working hard to get himself over, but there's a reason some hit makers are legendary while other hit makers are one hit wonders.

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Like someone said, the reasons why guys get depushed are probably almost always things we don't know about. I've heard that Zach wouldn't go straight to Vince with his ideas and that's what you have to do. I've heard tons of guys say that guys have to go to Vince and throw out ideas or refuse gimmicks to get ahead. Basically show some balls.

That's a big reason why Punk isn't being buried on TV. Yes, Vince is concerned about merch sales, but Punk has said that he and Vince have a personal relationship and I'd guess Vince respects him for being a lot like him and standing up to him.

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Like someone said, the reasons why guys get depushed are probably almost always things we don't know about. I've heard that Zach wouldn't go straight to Vince with his ideas and that's what you have to do. I've heard tons of guys say that guys have to go to Vince and throw out ideas or refuse gimmicks to get ahead. Basically show some balls.

That's a big reason why Punk isn't being buried on TV. Yes, Vince is concerned about merch sales, but Punk has said that he and Vince have a personal relationship and I'd guess Vince respects him for being a lot like him and standing up to him.

 

I always imagine the conversations between CM Punk and Vince McMahon going something like the conversations between Ted and the store manager in the movie Ted.

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That's a big reason why Punk isn't being buried on TV.

 

According to Meltzer, every time someone says something about guys who "want to be there", "didn't quit" or some variation of the taking the ball home line, it's a dig at CM Punk. Example: Triple H telling Bryan that he "stuck it out", etc..

 

Of course, I don't necessarily believe that's a burial and I'm not sure if I even believe Dave.

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