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On August 18, 2016 at 11:18 PM, Charlie M. said:

Did anyone turn effectively as often as Randy Savage did? It's pretty amazing that he flip flopped so many times in a relatively short period of time and it always worked. Perhaps it spoke to the insane aspect of his personality where you bought it that he'd gone off the deep end again.

????

Started as a heel in 1985. Turned in early 1987. Turned heel in early 1989. Turned face in early 1991 and stayed face until late 96/early 97. Three turns in 12 years doesn't seem often to me.

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Babyface turn happened in Fall of 87 to set-up the Honky feud as I recall since the Steamboat feud went fro Fall 86-Mania 3 and the WCW heel turned was definitely in early 97 (and was completely out of the blue). Otherwise yeah, he wasn't super frequent with the turns. Hell Luger turned more than Savage did.

James

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Good points. I was mainly thinking about his WWF run and during that time period, it seems like a lot of turns compared to people of a similar stature. I'm more impressed by how easily fans could go from loving him to hating him. Or at least loving to hate him.

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Is Jake being at all hyperbolic whenever he talks about how crazy the fans went over him DDT'ing Hogan? On a related note, is Vader's powerbomb the only time yellow and red pussy do-gooder Hogan ate a visual pinfall? Hell, I mean considering that Hogan pretty much kicked out from Warrior's big splash right at 3, he gave way more to Vader in that instance than he did when he actually passed the torch, brah. Man, I wish Vader stuck around at least long enough to have a title match against the Giant even if it was a giveaway on a random Nitro. The whole follow-up to that Vader/Hogan match didn't make a whole lot of sense but then again I don't remember Hogan/Earthquake ever having a decisive televised match to end their feud either. Is this some weird little Hogan thing where he preferred half-assed wins over certain monsters just so he could keep them strong and decisively beat them at a bigger event?

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13 minutes ago, FluffSnackwell said:

On a related note, is Vader's powerbomb the only time yellow and red pussy do-gooder Hogan ate a visual pinfall?

Taker at Survivor Series '91 and Yokozuna at KOTR '93?

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Didn't those involve Flair whacking Hogan with a steel chair and the stupid flash bulb deal? Also making Vader look like more of a badass he totally no-sold the legdrop kicking out at 1 which I also remember Sid doing at WM VIII but I believe that's kind of it back before the days of spammed finishers.

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Didn't know you meant fully clean. I thought you just meant an actual pin fall. 

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Yeah, I should've clarified. The Vader pin was during a ref bump but since Hogan's only clean loss since '84 up to that point was WM VI where he still pretty visibly kicked out right out at 3, it seemed like it would've lead to more than it did that he stayed down for a good 5-count after taking Vader's powerbomb. Instead we got Ric Flair in drag managing to lose a bullrope match on behalf of Vader and then Hogan escaping from the cage like the little puss that he is to win the blowoff match. Hogan's loss to Yoko on the way out was so abrupt and downplayed that it barely feels like it happened. By the time a monster finally did beat  red and yellow  running mild Hogan in a meaningful match, it was rookie Brock on Smackdown but by then Hogan was trading wins with the entire top tier of the card so I guess it didn't matter that much.

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Undertaker vs Hogan ended with a tombstone on a chair, didn't it? Isn't that how Hogan got the title back and Undertsker's reign being voided?

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I thought it was Hogan's cheating at Tuesday In Texas that vacated the title. Taker was champ for that small time. Actually recognized over DiBiase (which is a whole different discussion) and Andre (I think).

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59 minutes ago, Wyld Samurai said:

Undertaker vs Hogan ended with a tombstone on a chair, didn't it? Isn't that how Hogan got the title back and Undertsker's reign being voided?

No it set up the rematch at "This Tuesday in Texas". . .

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Really? I always thought that it was. Odd. 

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Undertaker's reign wasn't voided.  It was Hogan's after winning it back from Undertaker that was.  Taker even defended it on house shows for the week that he had it.

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On 21/08/2016 at 7:39 PM, PetrolCB said:

I thought it was Hogan's cheating at Tuesday In Texas that vacated the title. Taker was champ for that small time. Actually recognized over DiBiase (which is a whole different discussion) and Andre (I think).

Andre's was recognized, it was just really short.

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Andre's is recognized for about two minutes and then considered vacated rather than forfeitted to Ted DiBiase, who's "reign" is not recognized

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That's lousy. He defended the belt several times. 

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I just remember it being a big deal at WM13 when Undertaker got the belt and saying it was his first. 

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13 minutes ago, Wyld Samurai said:

I just remember it being a big deal at WM13 when Undertaker got the belt and saying it was his first. 

I don't recall them doing this at all - they didn't really go nuts about it but it wasn't his first time at all.  Just more of a shock that Undertaker went over five years between title reigns back then.

On 8/21/2016 at 0:42 PM, FluffSnackwell said:

Didn't those involve Flair whacking Hogan with a steel chair and the stupid flash bulb deal? Also making Vader look like more of a badass he totally no-sold the legdrop kicking out at 1 which I also remember Sid doing at WM VIII but I believe that's kind of it back before the days of spammed finishers.

Sid kicking out was a shoot because Papa Shango was late on the runin to make the DQ save, which is why Harvey Wippleman got in the ring and they ended up on a really lame DQ instead of a pretty lame DQ.  In a WrestleMania main event, no less.

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They never said that it was Taker's first reign at WM13 and they counted the first reign.  As the two biggest Taker fans on this board, Sweetster and I have spoken.

 

They even did a whole thing with him wearing the same gear he wore to win it the first time, remember?

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That may be the case and I just can't remember... maybe Sweetser has some of our old #w logs as I know we probably caught WM13 together back in 97 on irc.

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14 hours ago, Michael Sweetser said:

I don't recall them doing this at all - they didn't really go nuts about it but it wasn't his first time at all.  Just more of a shock that Undertaker went over five years between title reigns back then.

Sid kicking out was a shoot because Papa Shango was late on the runin to make the DQ save, which is why Harvey Wippleman got in the ring and they ended up on a really lame DQ instead of a pretty lame DQ.  In a WrestleMania main event, no less.

I actually looked this up before I started to post that Hogan should've just straight-up jobbed to Sid. I'm sure I've heard about Papa Shango's miscue before but it's just one of those things that just gets nudged out of the back of your mind. What I had a harder time remembering is that dumb ass Sid apparently failed a drug test at some point before Wrestlemania VIII so I'm sure they already sensed he just wasn't long for the WWE well before his match against Hogan.

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I didn't know he'd failed a drugs test. Maybe its a good idea they did turn him heel after all (even though he was probably the hottest babyface behind Macho Man at the time)

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I do remember that Sid stuck around to do a couple of house show matches against the Warrior, so I assume that would've been his first actual post-WM feud.  But I don't think Sid was on TV again after WrestleMania - they moved pretty quickly into the Papa Shango feud.  Shango interfering at Mania seemed more like a "here's a big heel to come in and bump" runin rather than starting something.

Also, if you think Hulk Hogan is losing his "retirement" match at WrestleMania, you're outta your mind.

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Hogan doing any job (that he didn't want to) up until he returned to the WWE at the turn of the century is inconceivable. That's why it's so hard to fathom Hitman thinking Hogan would job to the Sharpshooter. Hart had to know that but he just likes milking the story of Hogan being a snake in the grass for all it's worth.  The Yoko job was a courtesy to Vince but totally on Hulk's own terms. Retirement or not, Hogan wasn't passing the torch again two years removed from Warrior setting his own head on fire with it. I get that but if Sid really was getting cheered like the number two babyface at the time though, that means Hogan was rapidly becoming as lame as he'd remain until joining the NWO. Also from a storyline perspective, Hogan fucked over the younger version of himself at the Royal Rumble (after repeatedly fucking his friends over during that whole red and yellow slice of Americana) so it would've been nice for Sid finally being the one to stick it back in his face.

Sid the Skid would've eventually fucked it all up or not gotten off the ground in the first place; that is if somehow Hogan did him the same favor as Warrior and he got the belt in short order but since nobody ended up drawing again until the Attitude Era, what's the damn difference? Even if Sid is thrown into the title mix, the belt still finds its way onto Bret. At least Sid was a hipper choice for Hogan redux than the Lex Express runs roughshod over foreign monsters tripe. While you had the Megapowders coked-out lunatic dynamic between Hogan/Warrior for their showdown, Hogan/Sid was even cooler as it mirrored Roy Hobbs' last at-bat where he faced a younger version of himself. Of course, I know how it would've ended up, Hogan gets his win back at Summerslam which would've been ample time for Sid to make a big ole skidmark and prove himself unworthy.

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