Elsalvajeloco Posted October 24, 2015 Share Posted October 24, 2015 If Riddle ever gets his shit together and the WWE officially picks him up, then that would be another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingus Posted October 24, 2015 Share Posted October 24, 2015 No, I am saying there is no need to protect pro wrestling (which has been caving in on itself for several years) from Dave Meltzer of all people.I don't see how wrestling's current financial success as an overall industry has any relevance to the argument of whether or not it counts as a sport; and I don't see how saying that wrestling isn't a sport is "protecting" it from anybody. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elsalvajeloco Posted October 24, 2015 Share Posted October 24, 2015 No, I am saying there is no need to protect pro wrestling (which has been caving in on itself for several years) from Dave Meltzer of all people.I don't see how wrestling's current financial success as an overall industry has any relevance to the argument of whether or not it counts as a sport; and I don't see how saying that wrestling isn't a sport is "protecting" it from anybody. Simply because people have to project pro wrestling's shortcomings and turn that into an all out bitch fest about Dave Meltzer and/or what they don't watch that Meltzer has included in the WO newsletter for multiple pages. I am not talking about just this one instance. I am discussing all these incidents going back and spanning several pages. There is a prevailing and recurring theme among all of them. You would think it would have never gotten to this point of being pathetic. However, you can never count out a certain circle of pro wrestling fans. Secondly, it's not the whole wrestling is a sport or not, it's the outrage and awe that Meltzer used one throwaway sentence (hell that might have been in jest, but that would require someone to reach out to him to find out) that put Division I wrestling in a similar light as pro wrestling. He didn't say pro wrestling is a sport. He didn't say NCAA wrestling is a fictitious, shoddy, fraudulent production. He simply stated something about wrestling crowds. In his newsletter. That people pay to read and have been for years despite poor formatting and spelling errors out of the wazoo. He is not selling you this bill of goods. He wrote one paragraph about a wrestling meet that most people (even including myself) would either skip or skim. It didn't set forth this mass confusion where one person would believe something different after reading it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingus Posted October 24, 2015 Share Posted October 24, 2015 It ain't merely a case of "one throwaway sentence". Meltzer's been nonsensically insisting for well over a decade that MMA is a form of pro wrestling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elsalvajeloco Posted October 24, 2015 Share Posted October 24, 2015 It ain't merely a case of "one throwaway sentence". Meltzer's been nonsensically insisting for well over a decade that MMA is a form of pro wrestling. So? In your diatribe about fixed MMA and boxing fights a page or so back, I just assumed that you didn't know what the fuck you were talking about. I didn't say you were misleading people because I don't expect you to know the history behind that. As a MMA fan, you would think I would be more offended than you guys at that. But you know what? I don't give a fuck because I understand some of the context behind what Meltzer is saying. Akira Maeda and Minoru Suzuki and Satoru Sayama didn't fucking pop out of nowhere. Same goes for Ken Shamrock and Nobuhiko Takada. All of those men were pivotal to the history of MMA in some form or another. That's just scratching the surface really. Some of it is extremely heavy handed and leads to a bunch of confusing, bizarre analogies. However, that's just Dave Meltzer. You know what? UFC (the Zuffa era) is built off the WWF model from 2000. Now, Bellator is modeled after the PRIDE model, which itself was molded from the success of puroresu and K-1 from the pre-kakutogi boom which includes the pro wrestling theatrics and pageantry. This new Japanese promotion RIZIN is going to be based off that very same model. So basically, it's real pro wrestling. From the entrances, interviews, hype commercials, and pre-match video packages, it is all cribbed from pro wrestling to effectively build up their own content. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cool arrow Posted October 24, 2015 Share Posted October 24, 2015 It ain't merely a case of "one throwaway sentence". Meltzer's been nonsensically insisting for well over a decade that MMA is a form of pro wrestling. Well, early 80's New Japan to UWF style to Pancrase to Pride was a fairly logical progression. American pro wrestling to UFC, not so much. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elsalvajeloco Posted October 24, 2015 Share Posted October 24, 2015 It ain't merely a case of "one throwaway sentence". Meltzer's been nonsensically insisting for well over a decade that MMA is a form of pro wrestling. Well, early 80's New Japan to UWF style to Pancrase to Pride was a fairly logical progression. American pro wrestling to UFC, not so much. What made UFC successful in the TUF era and beyond is Lorenzo Fertitta and Joe Silva basically taking what made WWF successful in 2000 (you know the last time it was relevant) and mixed in w/ the legitimacy of professional boxing. From the guys they decided to push to Spike TV ultimately deciding to play UFC after WWE programming, it was all created to replicate that same success. That's the logical progression. Keep in mind, early Zuffa UFC had a ramp like WCW in 1992 and pyro. It would probably still be around if (1) the UFC wasn't losing a shit ton of money then and (2) they hadn't decided to go all in on The Ultimate Fighter. Strikeforce and then Scott Coker when he took over Bellator are carrying that mantle now though. Also, Pancrase pre-dates UFC. When SEG was looking for talent, they got and were scouting..*drumroll*..American and Japanese pro wrestlers who had competed for Pancrase. As time wore on, they were looking for other pro wrestlers. Then, years later, Randy Couture put out a cigarette on that shit when he mauled Tony Halme. Thus, you had more pro wrestlers deciding to err on the side of caution and compete for PRIDE (and later K-1 under the Hero's banner) where they could get paid more to fight other freakshow fighters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elsalvajeloco Posted October 24, 2015 Share Posted October 24, 2015 An addendum: "It wasn't about their product, it was about their business model, they had become very astute at selling their product and getting people to buy pay-per-views (PPV) by using free television. When we started, we had no traditional free press. Nobody was covering us, no one took us seriously as a sport. Therefore we had to turn to the WWE model which was, they have Monday Night Raw, Thursday Night Smackdown, which were television shows that told a story, and the story was trying to convince you to transact on Sunday night on PPV. So we said look, it's going to take awhile for the free press to cover us, we don't have that long to wait, therefore we must buy our way on TV, get on that free-to-air format, tell our story, let the fans know who these fighters are and convince the fans to buy the PPV on Saturday night. So looking at their business plan was the key." http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/news/442068/Fertitta-explains-how-UFC-used-WWEs-business-model/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingus Posted October 24, 2015 Share Posted October 24, 2015 In your diatribe about fixed MMA and boxing fights a page or so back, I just assumed that you didn't know what the fuck you were talking about. diatribe noun di·a·tribe \ˈdī-ə-ˌtrīb\ : an angry and usually long speech or piece of writing that strongly criticizes someone or something You wrote a post containing eighteen sentences and a personal insult, claiming my post containing four sentences and no personal insults was a "diatribe". Riiiiiight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jstout Posted October 24, 2015 Share Posted October 24, 2015 I think the early interest in MMA by Meltzer is because it was going to try to be in the semi-regular (not just big fights like boxing) PPV business. How would this effect wrestling's business? What would UFC do better than pro wrestling? What would they do worse? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elsalvajeloco Posted October 24, 2015 Share Posted October 24, 2015 In your diatribe about fixed MMA and boxing fights a page or so back, I just assumed that you didn't know what the fuck you were talking about. diatribe noun di·a·tribe \ˈdī-ə-ˌtrīb\ : an angry and usually long speech or piece of writing that strongly criticizes someone or something You wrote a post containing eighteen sentences and a personal insult, claiming my post containing four sentences and no personal insults was a "diatribe". Riiiiiight. How was it a personal insult? I thought it was cute (like when a child believes he is really Spider-Man) that you thought you knew about MMA when it's evident you're completely out of your depth. No one would know if I wasn't forced to bring it up. But we cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jstout Posted October 24, 2015 Share Posted October 24, 2015 He was also covering Japanese wrestling, and MMA and Japanese wrestling are absolutely intertwined. He couldn't cover wrestling without covering MMA's effect on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raziel Posted October 24, 2015 Share Posted October 24, 2015 And that's why casuals stay out of the MMA forum. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingus Posted October 24, 2015 Share Posted October 24, 2015 I thought it was cute (like when a child believes he is really Spider-Man) that you thought you knew about MMA when it's evident you're completely out of your depth.In the midst of saying "hey, I didn't insult you" you managed to repeat the insult. Amazing. And, I already know all the stuff you're referencing about UWFi and Pancrase and all the intertwined nature of works and shoots in Japan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elsalvajeloco Posted October 24, 2015 Share Posted October 24, 2015 I thought it was cute (like when a child believes he is really Spider-Man) that you thought you knew about MMA when it's evident you're completely out of your depth.In the midst of saying "hey, I didn't insult you" you managed to repeat the insult. Amazing. And, I already know all the stuff you're referencing about UWFi and Pancrase and all the intertwined nature of works and shoots in Japan. Sure, you do. I believe you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingus Posted October 24, 2015 Share Posted October 24, 2015 And now you passive-aggressively call me a liar. Shit just keeps getting better and better, doesn't it folks? Ask any of the regulars from PWO, we've been talking about all the various worked-shoot promotions for years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elsalvajeloco Posted October 24, 2015 Share Posted October 24, 2015 ....Right. I'll do that soon. I'm putting that on my Google calendar right between "Not" and "giving a fuck". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingus Posted October 24, 2015 Share Posted October 24, 2015 The don't call me a fucking liar. I've got a UWF tape, a PRIDE tape, and two BattlArts DVDs literally within my line of sight here in my room as I'm typing this post. On my Youtube account, I put together a whole channel of Daisuke Ikeda and Yuki Ishikawa matches. Yes, I know from Japanese worked shoots. Don't claim that I'm ignorant without any proof of actual alleged ignorance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elsalvajeloco Posted October 24, 2015 Share Posted October 24, 2015 The don't call me a fucking liar. I've got a UWF tape, a PRIDE tape, and two BattlArts DVDs literally within my line of sight here in my room as I'm typing this post. On my Youtube account, I put together a whole channel of Daisuke Ikeda and Yuki Ishikawa matches. Yes, I know from Japanese worked shoots. Don't claim that I'm ignorant without any proof of actual alleged ignorance. You're a regular Stephen Quadros there. Two WHOLE BattlArts DVDs. Shit, you're unstoppable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingus Posted October 24, 2015 Share Posted October 24, 2015 It's always nice to see a mod baiting a member with various condescending not-entirely-veiled insults. And how many Japanese worked shoot videos are in your line of sight, right this instant? Since apparently it's quantity of videos within immediate line of sight that you're basing overall knowledge of the subject upon. Kind of a weird criteria for knowledge, but it's your choice, not mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elsalvajeloco Posted October 24, 2015 Share Posted October 24, 2015 And how many Japanese worked shoot videos are in your line of sight, right this instant? EIGHT HUNDRED AND SEVENTY-EIGHT~! You didn't get baited as much you got mad to the point where you legitimately told me about your tape collection like it's 2002. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingus Posted October 24, 2015 Share Posted October 24, 2015 EDIT: ya know what, I don't even fuckin' care anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elsalvajeloco Posted October 24, 2015 Share Posted October 24, 2015 EDIT: ya know what, I don't even fuckin' care anymore. BOMBSQUAD~!!!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig H Posted October 25, 2015 Share Posted October 25, 2015 Jingus is all shook and shit and Elsa's dancing around like Andy Silva in his prime. Also, to Raziel's comment about casuals staying out of the MMA folder: Casuals don't have to, but if you're going to say something stupid, you're going to get called out on it. At that point, are you going to be prideful and lash out or are you going to learn something? Fuck, even non-casual MMA fans in the MMA forum have said some wacky shit. FFS, epwar will never take his goddamn tinfoil hat off. That doesn't mean everyone else is going to motherfuck you or forward awful pictures of you to your family. Well, at least not yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Execproducer Posted October 25, 2015 Share Posted October 25, 2015 The MMA folder is really a much better place since the change in management, despite what one might think after the last few pages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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