DIRTSHEETZ~! THREAD

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And Vinny would sing "Ave Maria," with the second syllable of Maria replaced with "BEEEEE!"

[Petey]

If Dave died before Vince, I wonder if Vince would go to the wake.

 

This just got weird.

[TerjeRUN]

Dave would like Bryan to eulogize him if he dies. 

Not when, but IF.

 

Meltzer!~ 

[hammerva]

I am glad to know that according to Meltzer the reason people hate Jon Jones is because UFC fans can't accept a successful black man.  Not the phoniness not the drug use not the arrogance it because of race.    

 

Listen I agree that there is a huge meathead quality of MMA fans but talk about a stretch.

[Petey]

I'm not really a big UFC/MMA fan, but that's a pretty terrible blanket statement. I find it hard to believe that even the 20/30 year old "meatheads" actually care about a fighter's race.

[Playa Shunna Ver 3.0]

Yeah, Meltzer's argument is such shit.  It was kind of embarrassing to hear him say that.

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So Dana was just trolling the meatheads when he put Jones against another successful black man named Cormier?

[Playa Shunna Ver 3.0]

Well every successful promoter knows, if you have 2 successful black guys they need to team or feud.  

[Technico Support]

Racists are weird, man. I've known hyooooge bigots who were MMA fans and boxing fans.  They really don't give a shit about who is fighting.  They were never like, "I don't like that fighter because he's black."  They were more like, "I don't want that black guy moving in next door."  For all the racist shitheads I've ever known, they didn't care who entertained them. 

[Bustronaut]

Why would racists NOT want to see a black man getting beaten up?

[Niners Fan in CT]

I find it hard to believe that even the 20/30 year old "meatheads" actually care about a fighter's race.

 

I've witnessed this with some MMA fans (or fans of any sport). Arrogant/obnoxious white fighter/player = passionate/he cares.  Arrogant/obnoxious black fighter/player = Arrogant/obnoxious.

 

It's a real issue but who knows how prevalent.

[Charlie M.]

It's as much of an issue as it is in any sport. It really just depends where you live and what types of people you associate with.

[Technico Support]

 

I find it hard to believe that even the 20/30 year old "meatheads" actually care about a fighter's race.

 

I've witnessed this with some MMA fans (or fans of any sport). Arrogant/obnoxious white fighter/player = passionate/he cares.  Arrogant/obnoxious black fighter/player = Arrogant/obnoxious.

 

It's a real issue but who knows how prevalent.

 

 

Yeah, this.  Tom Brady screams FUCK like a Tourette's patient on the sidelines = he's a passionate leader.  Black guy does it, he's a "thug."

[Charlie M.]

That one seems to be less of a race issue and more of the obsession with winning thing. If Tom Brady had no SuperBowls and sucked, he'd get ripped to shreds for it.

[Elsalvajeloco]

It's as much of an issue as it is in any sport. It really just depends where you live and what types of people you associate with.

 

Pretty much. People still think MMA fans dress like Bobby Cannavale in Blue Jasmine. I am just trying to figure out why this narrative about the fans actually matters.

 

I think it all comes down to this and you would think Meltzer could understand as a historian (especially considering what’s happening with the WWE). You play the hand you’re dealt. No sport has any choice in what fanbase they have or who they choose to root for. I mean you can try to push them in a certain direction, but you have to expect some pushback (see: McGregor, Conor). The narrative four years ago when Jones first won the belt was that he couldn’t draw because he didn’t have that connection. Sure, no one hated Jon Jones when he was breaking Brandon Vera’s face and already earmarked to be the UFC champion in MMA’s money division. That is what I will concede to Meltzer’s point. However, the spotlight changes everything. When a sports star goes from a small market team to New York or Los Angeles, it’s a whole different game when it comes to coverage. That extramarital affair you had while playing in Denver is now a big thing when you play in NYC. Same thing applies when it comes to going from prospect to champion in combat sports. He has been champion for going on four years, and the UFC has been to trying to make him a superstar since that time. Even though Dave admitted Jon is now a star, he is still having trouble looking at the UFC 182 buyrate and asking himself, “Does the UFC actually give a shit?” If it was as simple as babyface and heel reactions, Brock would have never had the effect he had on the sport.

 

It doesn’t matter why people boo or cheer you and how rational their reason is. All that matters is how much are you drawing and do fans give a damn to do one or the other. People love Matt Brown. Not a PPV draw. People really love Urijah Faber. Not a PPV draw. So on and so forth. At the end of day, the UFC generates money based on how much the fans give a shit and doing it enough to watch or spend money. Drug test failure or not, Jon Jones did himself a favor with his post-fight interview after the Cormier fight. Plus, he was phenomenal in the post-fight presser. It wasn’t a 1m buys every fight from now on thing, but it was a definite turn-the-corner moment (again, as Meltzer pretty much conceded). If you can do in the range of 500k+ buys everytime Jones fights, you’re doing your job as a promoter correctly. That’s all the UFC should be concerned with. If it’s not a long-term solution UFC can readily identify, they can only come to that road when they get to it.

 

As far Jon Jones the person and the race card narrative goes, I remember that came up when super underdog Rashad Evans knocked out Chuck Liddell in Atlanta in 2008. Yeah, I am sure that there were racist fans there (former DVDVR mod sprewellrimz can attest to this) and booed Rashad when he did the Fred Sanford fake heart attack thing when he KO’d Chuck. However, Chuck was a big star then (especially to drunk white frat boys thus the passion and vitrol) and the fight did business. Even though the cocky black man narrative persisted, Rashad was still able to do business. You can argue the UFC was hotter then and that’s why, but that’s more or less bullshit. Big fights or events could sell in almost any landscape. Rampage vs. Evans, with the same type of buildup, would still sell a ton of PPVs. If someone told Dave that WrestleMania’s fiscal success directly correlates with WWE’s overall quality and ratings, he would go “what the fuck are you talking about?” and rightly so. You have to be able to isolate things and not have certain narratives (false or not) affect your overall outlook.

 

People boo and that’s just what they do. I think that Jon’s biggest problem (outside of the partying aspect which was just uncovered) is he really doesn’t understand his own place within the entire UFC landscape. I think he looks at his brothers’ success in the NFL and wants to sort of replicate some type of crossover aspect that isn’t really there. Part of that is Malki Kawa is terrible at his job as a PR rep and manager, but that’s really whatever in the grand scheme of things. I think UFC 182 kinda showed he is figuring it out a bit, but it’s still not there yet. Jon has to figure out that the most violent sport in the world isn’t going to produce a bunch of crossover stars, and he doesn’t have to protect his reputation in a dubious, premeditated way. On social media, it is just going to coalesce into a bunch of things that can be used against you. However, I will say that I was more concerned about Ronda in the beginning of her UFC run than I ever was about Jon. I think the TUF experience and the fact she is doing legit movie roles helped push her to tone it way down. At first, she was just so abrasive and outspoken. She was calling Cris Cyborg a tranny, retweeting Newtown/Sandy Hook truther videos, going in on Fallon Fox, and just doing general over-the-top unladylike shit (which can somewhat be attributed to her stardom). It got to the point where I was legitimately concerned that some major politician or special interest group would step in and make some people from Zuffa publicly apologize. Now, Ronda is strictly Instagram pictures and training videos. I don’t know who got to her, but it was definitely effective. That’s probably why I am hesitant to admit Ronda is smarter than Jon when it comes to that aspect. Getting the muzzle put on you and letting it happen doesn’t necessarily qualify you as a smarter individual. Ronda is still going to get booed a ton, but I don’t think the UFC cares as long as she stays a consistent draw. Same goes with Jon Jones. Ultimately, protecting your personal brand to that level is not their job. Making you a star is their job.

[Cobra Commander]

Really wish that Dave and Bryan stop hyping the AXS TV New Japan show since the majority of people with cable don't get the channel.   Sounds so good 

Yeah, I don't get AXS. And I have a system that gets a channel which airs Martin for 6 hours in a row.

 

 

That one seems to be less of a race issue and more of the obsession with winning thing. If Tom Brady had no SuperBowls and sucked, he'd get ripped to shreds for it.

 

 

Brady minus Super Bowls equals Tony Romo, right?

[Niners Fan in CT]

UFC needs to be careful with making people tone it down though because it is the personalities that sell fights. Sure, the actual athleticism and competition brings something to the table but you only draw massive numbers when there is something else in the mix (controversy, shit-talking, etc.) that goes beyond the competition.

 

You don't want a bunch of politically correct "nice" guys who give generic answers.

[Elsalvajeloco]

The DirecTV package I have is funny because I get TVOne (which plays Martin marathons every week) and AXS TV. However, I would need to pay extra for El Rey. I guess I don't want to watch Lucha Underground that bad.

[Niners Fan in CT]

Dave said this past week's episode of Lucha Underground was the best hour of television he's seen in forever. Well, that and the NJPW premiere. I've never seen this Lucha show but I guess I'll have to check it out.

[odessasteps]

On twitter, dave said that NJPW show was the best hour of wrestling tv ever.

[Niners Fan in CT]

Bryan said the commentary on one of the matches was the "best call ever" 

 

I find that hard to believe did anyone hear it?

[Elsalvajeloco]

UFC needs to be careful with making people tone it down though because it is the personalities that sell fights. Sure, the actual athleticism and competition brings something to the table but you only draw massive numbers when there is something else in the mix (controversy, shit-talking, etc.) that goes beyond the competition.

 

You don't want a bunch of politically correct "nice" guys who give generic answers.

 

Yes and no. You're going to get people like Demetrious Johnson who is ultra PC and shows personality when the mic is off, but doesn't want to make enemies. However, when it comes to Ronda, I think it was more about protecting their own ass. They already went through hell when Dana dropped the dreaded C word on Loretta Hunt. You can't be letting people go on transphobic rants at will. I mean YOU CAN, but you're probably not going to like the consequences.

 

I just don't get Meltzer going on the "He should be a bigger star than he is" tirade he has been hammering home for 3 1/2 - 4 years now. Based on what fucking metric? Talent? Well that would mean DJ should be selling half a million buys every time out. But that's not happening. It comes down to two possible outcomes that are both plausible.

 

One, maybe he is at the level he should be at. There are a bunch of people in pro wrestling and combat sports who are/were stars but didn't really transcend superstardom. Roy Jones Jr. was probably the most physically gifted fighter EVER. We're talking about a person who was beating up legit world champions at age fifteen or sixteen when he was brought in just as a sparring partner. A teenager who was just competing in the Pensacola amateur leagues beating up GROWN MEN who were the best of the best. That's fucking insane. However, he was never a PPV draw and never did a big gate in Vegas, Atlantic City, or any major fight city. Maybe it's a shame he was never able to do that or draw on PPV, but he still had a legit Hall of Fame career. Jon Jones, who has beat much tougher fighters in MMA comparatively, has sold way more PPVs than RJJ. So by Dave's standards, is he suppose to sell 750,000 everytime out? Meltzer also kinda contradicted himself by saying the Cormier fight drew because he was the right opponent. That is likely applicable to EVERY major fight in combat sports. If Jon Jones fought random guy #340, sure it's not going to sell a damn thing. You need to have the right opponents and that's where the promoter and matchmakers come in at. They don't do shoulder programming just to do it. They do it to legitimize fights. The better the opponent, the easier it becomes to legitimize.

 

The second reason, which I am a little bit more in line with, is maybe a person's star power isn't decided in a fixed amount of time. He is still a relatively young dude who really hasn't taken all that much punishment. He isn't really a speed and reflex first fighter. So knowing that, I would say that he is going to be around for awhile barring something unforeseen. Therefore, the doom-and-gloom preaching isn't necessary knowing this guy could easily be a two division champ 2-3 years from now. I mean the seeds are already being planting for a Cain Velasquez-Jon Jones fight, which I believe could be put in AT&T Stadium with the right card and promotion. Jon Jones competing in the HW division gives him a bunch of fresh matchups and interesting round of opponents. Shit, the chase for the belt could be money because of the level of intrigue it would generate. People bought into GSP-Penn II knowing damn well GSP had 20+ pounds on him, and it was a physical mismatch. People still want to see GSP vs. Anderson, and the same thing applies in favor of Anderson Silva. Imagine if there was someone like Jon Jones who people KNOW can beat at least 90% of the division he is moving up to. Big fights will sell regardless. Whether it sells 800k-950k or 1m+ is basically splitting hairs when you have nothing to gain from what number it does.

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Bryan said the commentary on one of the matches was the "best call ever" 

 

I find that hard to believe did anyone hear it?

 

I don't think it's aired yet.

[Niners Fan in CT]

Wasn't an issue with Roy Jones Jr. that the Light Heavyweight division was lacking in star power? I remember a ton of "Roy Jones is fighting some guy" type fights.

[Elsalvajeloco]

Wasn't an issue with Roy Jones Jr. that the Light Heavyweight division was lacking in star power? I remember a ton of "Roy Jones is fighting some guy" type fights.

 

Yeah, that was a big part of it. HBO signed him to a crazy contract (norm for then) so he wouldn't jump to Showtime in late 99/early 2000. Thus, they were very non-committal in going out of their way to put him in with the toughest guys. I mean they tried to make certain fights people wanted, but they weren't going to be very adamant paying him that much money. HBO wanted the Dariusz Michalczewski bout so Roy could have all four org belts, but it fell apart a bunch of times. The thing is none of those fights would have really sold big. You go back and watch his fights now, it seems like those possible opponents (minus a possible rematch with Bernard Hopkins) were all mythical figures. It's not like HBO was broadcasting Dariusz Michalczewski and Joe Calzaghe fights every time they fought. HBO was just it's own worst enemy and all that came to a head around the time Roy lost to Glen Johnson and Tarver.