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DVDVRMM: R1 Match 3 DEL RIO vs. WAGNER


DEL RIO vs. WAGNER  

82 members have voted

  1. 1. ONE GOES ON. ONE GOES HOME.

    • ALBERTO DEL RIO
      20
    • DR. WAGNER JR.
      62


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Watching the L.A. Park vs Wagner Jr. match now. I like that the first fall wasn't necessarily overkill. Yes it was a lot, but once they got back to the ring, they went right to driving the point home. I think a lot of wrestlers from around the world would have drawn that out more after the power bomb and it was absolutely not necessary. The blood stuff was all twisted, both Wagner wiping it on his own chest and then Park wiping it on his hands and licking it EXACTLY while the ring girl walks out with the segunda caida sign. That was all fairly grindhouse. I think Park had some very varied and interesting ways of just brutally dismantling the hell out of Wagner. I'm not sure I've ever seen the basic idea of "just slam the guy's head into something repeatedly" done so well. The transition was awesome because you're kind of thinking at that point: "what can Wagner do to get back into the match quickly and believably?" And just spearing Park into the chairs was so simple and effective. It was also one of the more believable "Bursts of adrenaline" I've seen when Wagner takes over. Some of that is how he moves around the ring, but I think some of it is just the natural thrill of the possibilities of revenge, if that makes any sense. It's visceral here. It's also a matter of pacing. He's not doing a ton of stuff. He's slamming a chair into his enemy with well-paced shots, the best being the momentum gathering running one. I love the fans with the masks trying to rouse their hero but then it's followed by one of them stooging while Park is about to get nailed with a chair. Weirdly surreal image. All this crowd stuff is a hell of a spectacle and I really like the symmetry with the beating around the arena and the ramp and the mask tearing. Someone like the Mando > Eddie guy could write up some crap about how surreal it is to see Park's mask ripped since it's representative of what's inside of him, so to see it opened up ... something, something. For someone who hasn't seen it before, it just came off as an offputting image. There's this hugely triumphant feel when Wagner's back in the ring and doing the clotheslines. It's like a celebration. 

Yeah, I really liked those first two falls and especially how they played off each other.And I am perfectly cool with the reset to start the last fall. It fit into the symmetry well and both guys are just reeling from the get go. When Wagner holds up his hands for Park to stop, it's one of those moments where I don't know if I'm seeing something that usually happens in lucha or not. Independently, it's cool, since both wrestlers are channeling the crowd and even after all the hatred, it's believable that there'd be that moment of pause. Granted Wagner uses it to start fighting back from the slaps but I don't think it was just misdirection. It's almost like these two wrestlers have transcended the hatred and reached a higher plateau of existence through trying to kill each other. What makes all of this work is the space between moves. Every little thing is so damn weighty. 

And then it kind of goes on and loses me a little. I think this is a personal problem I've been having with lucha though. I don't really see the shape of the third fall after the dive. it becomes very much "I hit a big move. You hit a big move." and on paper it's not too different from WWE Main Event ending run style, and in a lot of ways is superior since the pacing is slower and the kickouts aren't so ridiculous but I think because I'm used to something so different, it throws me off a little. It's almost like, because they're moving so slowly, I can see the strings holding the trick up? 

MAYBE it's not just me though since, from what I can tell, the crowd loses a lot of energy mid way through the third fall. It's still hot, but it was explosive before and instead of escalating, it deflates a little. I do think it really does come back after the leg whip though, mainly because of the "What else can we do?" mannerisms both guys are showing, and it's only increased from there with the ref bump/low blow and the near falls as they head towards the finish. 

The finish has the real feel of one of those 70s/early 80s interpromotional US Champion vs Champion matches. There's the visual fall but the ultimate win and no one leaves satisfied. Anyway, I thought it lost its way a little in the third fall, but almost because it had raised the emotional stakes SO high at the start of the fall. It's sort of a shitty thing to hold against a match and sort of hard to explain. In total I thought it was great and I'm pretty sure I like brawls way more than title matches, but for my own weird reasons. I didn't meant to write so much about this at all. I'm glad I watched it.

 

 

That's what I wrote about the txt match. I probably actually undersell it a bit. Del Rio had some good stuff this year but nothing hits that high and I know there were other framing matches plus probably a ton of stuff Wagner had that I don't know about.

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Watching the L.A. Park vs Wagner Jr. match now. I like that the first fall wasn't necessarily overkill. Yes it was a lot, but once they got back to the ring, they went right to driving the point home. I think a lot of wrestlers from around the world would have drawn that out more after the power bomb and it was absolutely not necessary. The blood stuff was all twisted, both Wagner wiping it on his own chest and then Park wiping it on his hands and licking it EXACTLY while the ring girl walks out with the segunda caida sign. That was all fairly grindhouse. I think Park had some very varied and interesting ways of just brutally dismantling the hell out of Wagner. I'm not sure I've ever seen the basic idea of "just slam the guy's head into something repeatedly" done so well. The transition was awesome because you're kind of thinking at that point: "what can Wagner do to get back into the match quickly and believably?" And just spearing Park into the chairs was so simple and effective. It was also one of the more believable "Bursts of adrenaline" I've seen when Wagner takes over. Some of that is how he moves around the ring, but I think some of it is just the natural thrill of the possibilities of revenge, if that makes any sense. It's visceral here. It's also a matter of pacing. He's not doing a ton of stuff. He's slamming a chair into his enemy with well-paced shots, the best being the momentum gathering running one. I love the fans with the masks trying to rouse their hero but then it's followed by one of them stooging while Park is about to get nailed with a chair. Weirdly surreal image. All this crowd stuff is a hell of a spectacle and I really like the symmetry with the beating around the arena and the ramp and the mask tearing. Someone like the Mando > Eddie guy could write up some crap about how surreal it is to see Park's mask ripped since it's representative of what's inside of him, so to see it opened up ... something, something. For someone who hasn't seen it before, it just came off as an offputting image. There's this hugely triumphant feel when Wagner's back in the ring and doing the clotheslines. It's like a celebration. 

Yeah, I really liked those first two falls and especially how they played off each other.And I am perfectly cool with the reset to start the last fall. It fit into the symmetry well and both guys are just reeling from the get go. When Wagner holds up his hands for Park to stop, it's one of those moments where I don't know if I'm seeing something that usually happens in lucha or not. Independently, it's cool, since both wrestlers are channeling the crowd and even after all the hatred, it's believable that there'd be that moment of pause. Granted Wagner uses it to start fighting back from the slaps but I don't think it was just misdirection. It's almost like these two wrestlers have transcended the hatred and reached a higher plateau of existence through trying to kill each other. What makes all of this work is the space between moves. Every little thing is so damn weighty. 

And then it kind of goes on and loses me a little. I think this is a personal problem I've been having with lucha though. I don't really see the shape of the third fall after the dive. it becomes very much "I hit a big move. You hit a big move." and on paper it's not too different from WWE Main Event ending run style, and in a lot of ways is superior since the pacing is slower and the kickouts aren't so ridiculous but I think because I'm used to something so different, it throws me off a little. It's almost like, because they're moving so slowly, I can see the strings holding the trick up? 

MAYBE it's not just me though since, from what I can tell, the crowd loses a lot of energy mid way through the third fall. It's still hot, but it was explosive before and instead of escalating, it deflates a little. I do think it really does come back after the leg whip though, mainly because of the "What else can we do?" mannerisms both guys are showing, and it's only increased from there with the ref bump/low blow and the near falls as they head towards the finish. 

The finish has the real feel of one of those 70s/early 80s interpromotional US Champion vs Champion matches. There's the visual fall but the ultimate win and no one leaves satisfied. Anyway, I thought it lost its way a little in the third fall, but almost because it had raised the emotional stakes SO high at the start of the fall. It's sort of a shitty thing to hold against a match and sort of hard to explain. In total I thought it was great and I'm pretty sure I like brawls way more than title matches, but for my own weird reasons. I didn't meant to write so much about this at all. I'm glad I watched it.

 

 

That's what I wrote about the txt match. I probably actually undersell it a bit. Del Rio had some good stuff this year but nothing hits that high and I know there were other framing matches plus probably a ton of stuff Wagner had that I don't know about.

 

 

Any chance you can give me the date of this match? Or any of the Wagner/Park feud, so I can try to catch up in order?

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Watching the L.A. Park vs Wagner Jr. match now. I like that the first fall wasn't necessarily overkill. Yes it was a lot, but once they got back to the ring, they went right to driving the point home. I think a lot of wrestlers from around the world would have drawn that out more after the power bomb and it was absolutely not necessary. The blood stuff was all twisted, both Wagner wiping it on his own chest and then Park wiping it on his hands and licking it EXACTLY while the ring girl walks out with the segunda caida sign. That was all fairly grindhouse. I think Park had some very varied and interesting ways of just brutally dismantling the hell out of Wagner. I'm not sure I've ever seen the basic idea of "just slam the guy's head into something repeatedly" done so well. The transition was awesome because you're kind of thinking at that point: "what can Wagner do to get back into the match quickly and believably?" And just spearing Park into the chairs was so simple and effective. It was also one of the more believable "Bursts of adrenaline" I've seen when Wagner takes over. Some of that is how he moves around the ring, but I think some of it is just the natural thrill of the possibilities of revenge, if that makes any sense. It's visceral here. It's also a matter of pacing. He's not doing a ton of stuff. He's slamming a chair into his enemy with well-paced shots, the best being the momentum gathering running one. I love the fans with the masks trying to rouse their hero but then it's followed by one of them stooging while Park is about to get nailed with a chair. Weirdly surreal image. All this crowd stuff is a hell of a spectacle and I really like the symmetry with the beating around the arena and the ramp and the mask tearing. Someone like the Mando > Eddie guy could write up some crap about how surreal it is to see Park's mask ripped since it's representative of what's inside of him, so to see it opened up ... something, something. For someone who hasn't seen it before, it just came off as an offputting image. There's this hugely triumphant feel when Wagner's back in the ring and doing the clotheslines. It's like a celebration. 

Yeah, I really liked those first two falls and especially how they played off each other.And I am perfectly cool with the reset to start the last fall. It fit into the symmetry well and both guys are just reeling from the get go. When Wagner holds up his hands for Park to stop, it's one of those moments where I don't know if I'm seeing something that usually happens in lucha or not. Independently, it's cool, since both wrestlers are channeling the crowd and even after all the hatred, it's believable that there'd be that moment of pause. Granted Wagner uses it to start fighting back from the slaps but I don't think it was just misdirection. It's almost like these two wrestlers have transcended the hatred and reached a higher plateau of existence through trying to kill each other. What makes all of this work is the space between moves. Every little thing is so damn weighty. 

And then it kind of goes on and loses me a little. I think this is a personal problem I've been having with lucha though. I don't really see the shape of the third fall after the dive. it becomes very much "I hit a big move. You hit a big move." and on paper it's not too different from WWE Main Event ending run style, and in a lot of ways is superior since the pacing is slower and the kickouts aren't so ridiculous but I think because I'm used to something so different, it throws me off a little. It's almost like, because they're moving so slowly, I can see the strings holding the trick up? 

MAYBE it's not just me though since, from what I can tell, the crowd loses a lot of energy mid way through the third fall. It's still hot, but it was explosive before and instead of escalating, it deflates a little. I do think it really does come back after the leg whip though, mainly because of the "What else can we do?" mannerisms both guys are showing, and it's only increased from there with the ref bump/low blow and the near falls as they head towards the finish. 

The finish has the real feel of one of those 70s/early 80s interpromotional US Champion vs Champion matches. There's the visual fall but the ultimate win and no one leaves satisfied. Anyway, I thought it lost its way a little in the third fall, but almost because it had raised the emotional stakes SO high at the start of the fall. It's sort of a shitty thing to hold against a match and sort of hard to explain. In total I thought it was great and I'm pretty sure I like brawls way more than title matches, but for my own weird reasons. I didn't meant to write so much about this at all. I'm glad I watched it.

 

 

That's what I wrote about the txt match. I probably actually undersell it a bit. Del Rio had some good stuff this year but nothing hits that high and I know there were other framing matches plus probably a ton of stuff Wagner had that I don't know about.

 

 

Any chance you can give me the date of this match? Or any of the Wagner/Park feud, so I can try to catch up in order?

 

The one he's talking about is the one that GojiColin has posted above (I think)

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Watching that beast I think you as a viewer just get physically exhausted watching it.  I could feel the life ebbing from both Parka and Wagner and it just wore me down even as a spectator.  Like it is you dripping blood and staggering around and hopefully this attempted double homicide will end soon.  Its an interesting experiment into match structure to see the match not end during an apex of excitement but at the merciful end of a war.  I was happy that I didn't have to watch anymore as opposed to wanting more and that is not a bad thing.  Seriously, when Parka is standing behind Wagner on the ropes and bashing his head against the post?  When Wagner clonked Parka with the beer bottle and then brought out the old face shredder?  When pieces of chair went flying into the air as Parka was winning the first fall?  Holy Smokes.  I'm tired.

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Still midway through the match above (which somehow I missed going through the thread) and now I've realized I've made a terrible mistake picking Del Rio to win this mach in the pickems.

 

hello darkness my old friend

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Wagner and Park - good gravy. What I like about Wagner in the above posted match is that, with a mask on, it can be hard to sell facially, so you really have to sell with your body, and Wagner does that nicely, slumping over in the corner or just breathing hard as fuck and trying to gather himself while Park stalks him, or other such things as that. He looks like a dude that has taken a beating, but gets just enraged enough to burst up and try to ruin Park's life every once in awhile. 

 

I have only seen like two Dr. Wagner Jr. matches and a ton of Del Rio, but I'm pretty sure Wagner is not only better, but has had the better year. I feel like I should watch at least another match from Wagner just to make sure. I almost want to see a pedestrian match from Wagner, like the equivalent of Del Rio/Ziggler on Main Event or something, just to see what he looks like in a throwaway match. 

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Del Rio's character is shit and Wagner's best match was much better than Del Rio's best match.  On the other hand I thought Del Rio looked really great at times last year.  To be fair a lot of that was in the last voting period (jan and feb of last year), but he was still putting on really strong performances leading up to an after Mania to the point where I thought he was one of the best guys in the promotion up until the half way point of the year.  I am in the process of putting together my WKO ballot and I have Del Rio ahead of Wagner by a reasonable amount of places, see no reason to change that here even if he is about to be mauled.

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I think we can all agree that Del Rio has been booked poorly this year, or at least has been booked against some of his strengths as a performer. That being said, there are plenty of people in this tournament that have shown an ability to overcome said bad booking that Del Rio hasn't. Honestly, I don't think his work measures up this year compared to some of his previous efforts.

Additionally, I'm pretty sure someone could have linked just the first four minutes of that Park/Wagner match and it would've constituted a better year than Del Rio.

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It's really amazing to see where ADR's career went after dropping Ricardo. Dude really, really, REALLY needs Ricardo back. I think if he has Ricardo with him, people's opinion of this pairing may be a bit different, but I think that Doc still wins.

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I love Wagner and have done for a long time, Ive not caught up with the LA Park feud bit I will make sure to do so now. Ive seen bits and pieces this year of lucha, particularly indie lucha and everytime Wagner has been on he has been good.

 

Del Rio has the makings of a great WWE character but has been booked to oblivion this year, losing Ricardo was a big blow to his act when it could have been a huge angle if handled correctly.  I think since the post-WM Raw Ziggler loss last year he has been in neutral and just been another guy on the card.

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He has no hope of winning this, but I'm voting ADR out of protest. In 2013 WWE, one of the best in-ring years in US wrestling history, here was someone who could be counted on for a good-or-better match with literally anyone. He had an entertaining match with Khali, for fuck's sake! He works well as face or heel, and the way he's integrated with WWE style is massively underrated.

Del Rio is being punished because he has been booked awfully, and no one in WWE not named Daniel Bryan has overcome the high level of bad booking he's had to deal with. I would venture to say that if their roles were reversed, Wagner would not have been nearly as successful in WWE as ADR.

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Del Rio is hurt from booking, but also because his best matches were obscured by better or more talked about matches from "hotter" internet commodities, i.e. Bryan, Cesaro, The Shield, Zayn, et.  Even if you pitch out the awesome Big Show match from last years voting period, some of the stuff with Dolph was outstanding (really Dolph's best stuff of the year), he had some tv matches with Swagger that were really underrated, and Del Rio v. Christian from Summerslam would have been the best match on a show for a lot of ppvs in a lot of years - it's just that that show had the best one-two punch maybe ever with Cena v. Bryan and Punk v. Lesnar.  

 

Wagner has one match that people have seen in large numbers, and a few others that people may be watching to a degree.  Having seen everything of his I could find on tape last year, the famous Park singles match, and the TXT tag are so far ahead of anything else he did all year it's crazy. 

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I feel like despite all the stupid booking, I still enjoy ADR in the ring. I'd vote for him against a lot of guys, but he got a bad draw this year, in more ways than one.

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