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MARCH WRESTLING DISCUSSION THREAD


RIPPA

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I think the Vader match is neck and neck with the Flair match. Maybe the Flair match is better, because it was devoid of politics and everyone wanted it to be good. 

 

 

Honestly, you're probably right on both counts. A question for you, and anyone else who wants to chime in: did Hogan and Savage do anything in WCW that remotely approached their WWF stuff? There was a Nitro match in the beginning of the NWO split that was kind of fun, but nothing else springs to mind.

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Savage/DDP was up there, IMO. See Savage/DDP at Spring Stampede 1997 and GAB 1997. 

 

The only thing that mars it is that Savage had the nonsensical heel turn to set up the feud. The weekly shows were driving toward a Sting/Savage/DDP coalition that would challenge the NWO, and Savage's heel turn made no sense. The matches are actually better in a vacuum when you don't realize why these two are feuding. 

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Going back to the scaffold match discussion for a sec, someone mentioned them using it at Cage of Death 5 in CZW. It was also used to great effect in CoD 10 with Sami Callihan and Danny Havoc, but like a few of the other matches listed, it has the qualifier of the wrestlers doing a whole lot aside from teasing a fall, with most of the work coming at ground level before moving up top for the finish.

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Savage/DDP was up there, IMO. See Savage/DDP at Spring Stampede 1997 and GAB 1997. 

 

this was going to be my #1 example. i also dig the Halloween Havoc match, but it isn't really on par with the other 2.

his stuff with Flair is ok, but doesn't touch their Mania match.

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Who would be the top female wrestlers in the world right now. To be honest the WWE product still does next to nothing (although there are a few exceptions now and then) for me as far as women's wrestling goes, but I'm wondering who are the best female workers in the world at this stage in time?

 

I'd put Ivelisse Velez right at the top, she's been ruling it on the indys especially SHINE ever since WWE & TNA both failed to do anything with her. Fantastic matches with a wide variety of opponents. I could definitely see naming her the best right now.

 

Madison Eagles & Serena Deeb were my top 2 back in 2011, Serena was out with injury for 2012 but did some good stuff last year and is picking up steam again. Eagles is still great every time I see her in action. Jessie McKay's another great one from the SHIMMER group.

 

Nevaeh is a great underrated gem that has been shining lately along with Jessie Belle & Sassy Stephie who have been doing some solid tag work. Kimberly in SHINE is another that's had some great performances, same for Mercedes Martinez. Rain recently retired but had a very good final year in the ring.

 

Two more favorites of mine would be Athena and Jessica James. Athena is just coming off a shoulder injury but was on fire before that while Jessica is over on her second tour of Japan right now. Both highlights of SHIMMER at one point, a shame Jessica wasn't there longer as she was just breaking out.

 

Those are the ones that stand out to me off the top of my head, also agreed with Eivion's post on those from Japan - along with Ayako Hamada who has always come off as one of the very best every time I see her compete. Always liked Hiroyo Matsumoto too.

 

Surprised you did not like Paige/Emma as I'd agree they are easily the best two in WWE with Summer Rae close behind. TNA's got Gail Kim and Madison Rayne having decent matches. Gail's matches with Taryn Terrell last year were some of my favorite stuff of the entire year especially their PPV match.

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When did Jimmy Hart turn babyface and how did it come about? I always thought he showed up to WCW with Hogan and we were supposed to accept him as a good guy. However I just watched King of the Ring 93 and saw Jimmy with Hogan then. I don't remember anything leading up to the match with Yoko.

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Random:  Orndorff has been publically bitter about his perceived place in Rasslin History. I am watching some 1984 WWF today. Orndorff is certainly good. He had a great physique, too. But I feel like he lacks a certain spark which would put him within the all-time greats. People like Hogan needed a guy like him to work off. But it doesn't mean Orndorff is at Hogan's level.

 

It got me to thinking. Who would be in the same place today? Someone who was decent enough, who could work Main Event and Upper-Midcard matches adequately. But who just isn't quite there when it comes to calling him a superstar. Kane, maybe?

Not Kane, people forget how much Ordorf was pimped during his actual career.

I think the closest equivalent would be Edge, also a guy who people really talked up during career but the more years pass, the less important he seems.

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Miz, Kane, Hall?
People are forgetting what a big deal Orndorf was once considered to be.
He was a guy regularly discussed by Meltzer as being a top ten/tope 15 in ring worker in the world.
In the 80's during the expansion period he is Hogan's second best drawing opponent after Savage,
Using the Matt Farmer formula he is a top ten draw in the world for the 80s.  And at the time he was given alot of credit for that draw (in a way that let's say Kimala or the Boss Man are not given as much credit for being responsible for how big their Hogan programs drew).

Helmsley has been positioned as top guy in WWE for last 15 years and as result it fucks with people's memories and they retroactively assume that he was somehow the top heel during the attitude era. Then when you go back and watch that period you see that he really wasn't, you watch as the fed as late as 1999 continued to pair him with Chyna even when Chyna had turned face because they didn't trust HHH to draw heel heat without her.
From 84-87 Orndorf was easily a more important part of the WWF then HHH was during attitude era. But the more time that passes the more his role diminishes in perceived importance (perhaps if HHH didn't marry and was released in 02 he'd be perceived the same way as Orndorff).

On some level I think Orndorff  skills and importance were overrated at time and the judgement of time is probably closer to the truth.
 

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Meltzer's top 100 in 83

 

 

1. Ric Flair (all-around he’s the greatest champion I’ve ever seen)
2. Bruiser Brody (not only the best brawler but the best big athlete in the game)
3. Adrian Adonis (more wrestling ability then any big man -- deceptive agility)
4. Stan Hansen (if you’ve ever seen the action he creates in Japan, an obvious pick)
5. Tiger Mask (pound-for-pound, nobody comes close)
6. Riki Choshu (great moves, never stops working, he’s got it all)
7. Dynamite Kid (hardest worker in the game, incredible guts, superior stamina)
8. Sgt. Slaughter (he’s been involved in so many memorable bouts)
9. Paul Orndorff (never out of position in the ring, incredibly conditioned stud)
10. Terry Funk (despite bad knees one of the all-time great workers)
11. Steve Wright (best scientific wrestler since Karl Gotch’s retirement)
12. Buzz Sawyer (being ruined in Ga., but has shown his stuff enough to deserve the spot)
13. The Superstar (based more on Japan where he shows it)
14. Greg Valentine (very solid basic wrestler, no recognizable flaws)
15. Jimmy Snuka (an incredibly gifted athlete and can work -- being in WWF hurts)
16. Ricky Steamboat (well-coordinated, well conditioned, involved in many super feuds)
17. Ken Patera (has been hurt by bad partners)
18. Masa Saito (I saw him for 13 years and never knew how good he was)
19. Dick Slater (may have reached his peak, but is almost always very good)
20. Tatsumi Fujinami (quick, strong, fantastic wrestler)
21. Bob Orton Jr. (some sensational moves, a little bit slow)
22. Andre the Giant (only as a villain in Japan, in fact he may deserve higher)
23. Killer Khan (tremendous movement for a big man when he’s allowed to)
24. Harley Race (slow, but tremendous moves and able to make the slow bouts exciting)
25. Jumbo Tsuruta (good scientific wrestler, best AJPW has)
26. Ted DiBiase (if he switched styles would be in the top 10)

Top 100 in 84

1. Ric Flair
2. Dynamite Kid
3. Bruiser Brody
4. Super Tiger (Sayama)
5. Davey Boy Smith
6. Riki Choshu
7. Butch Reed
8. Tatsumi Fujinami
9. Stan Hansen
10. Ricky Steamboat
11. Terry Gordy
12. The Cobra (George Takano)
13. Paul Orndorff
14. Adrian Adonis
15. Masa Saito
16. Bob Orton Jr
17. Dick Slater
18. Randy Savage
19. Kerry Von Erich
20. Ted DiBiase
21. Nobuhiko Takada
22. Chavo Guerrero
23. Don Kernodle
24. Akira Maeda
25. Barry Windham
26. Animal Hamaguchi
27. Harley Race
28. Kevin Von Erich
29. Tiger Mask (Misawa)
30. Yoshiaki Yatsu

 

85

 

And 1985's top ten:

1. RIC FLAIR (he may have slowed a bit, but he is so
consistently excellent and his aura is such that when he
does make a mistake, it is easily overlooked);

2. DAVEY BOY SMITH (without a doubt athletically the
best superstar in the business. I would be surprised if
he isn't number one within two years);

3. BRUISER BRODY (limited in many ways, but
nobody gives an aura of violent realism more, and in
Japan he rarely has anything but a great match);

4. BOB ORTON JR. (an extremely gifted performer but
often must be held back for fear of overshadowing his
opponents);

5. DYNAMITE KID (has lost some stamina with his
added muscle, thus his work rate has dropped, but in
many ways he's still about the best pound-for-pound);

6. TERRY GORDY (I can't say enough positive things
about his ability and work rate, but he's been known to
sluff off on occasions);

7. BUTCH REED (phenomenal strength and great
athletic skills to go along with it, now that he's gotten to
where he controls heat well, there's no stopping him);

8. CHAVO GUERRERO (almost everything he does is
flawless);

9. PAUL ORNDORFF (a superior athlete and wrestler
who often doesn't get to show his best because of his
mostly weak WWF baby-faced opposition, but for some
reason is a very boring wrestler when in Japan);


10. ADRIAN ADONIS (would be No. 1 if he was in any
kind of condition to wrestle in singles, but his 300-
pound current frame limits him).

Matt Farmer's biggest draws of the 80s
 

1. Hulk Hogan 344
2. Ric Flair 222
3. Randy Savage 113
4. Andre the Giant 104
5. Bob Backlund 89
6. Paul Orndorff 82
7. Antonio Inoki 75
8. Roddy Piper 70
9. Hawk 67
10. Animal 65

 

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I was just watching Bash at the Beach 94 on the Network with Hogan/Flair and it got me thinking, was Hogans first WCW match his best?

 

The only others that really come to mind that might compare are his steel cage rematch with Flair at Halloween Havoc or maybe against Vader at Uncensored 95.

Hogan vLuger is pretty good, and all the Hogan v DDP match ups are worth watching.

Unfortunately DDP and Hogan never had a singles match on PPV, they matched up in singles several times on Nitro with I think the March of 99 match being the longest, but they had a bunch of neat smart sequences that they could work- and its frustrating watching the two try to carry baskteball players and talk show hosts instead of just working a singles match. But still think those are worth watching as well.

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