Wyld Samurai Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 On 5/8/2017 at 5:24 PM, RolandTHTG said: , use the '96 Survivor Series finish a few years early, fluke roll up rebounding off the turnbuckle, Bret narrowly wins a miracle against Backlund....Owen cashes in instead. Then Diesel beats him in 30 seconds instead. The 96 SS finish was lifted from the Wrestlemania finish against Piper 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HumanChessgame Posted June 6, 2017 Share Posted June 6, 2017 Discussion of Jeff Jarrett in the main thread got me to think - what, if any sort of career would he have had if he was just some random schmoe who got trained and decided to become a wrestler and not the son of a popular promoter (assuming he had the same level of talent)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BurningBeard Posted June 6, 2017 Share Posted June 6, 2017 Probably a Bob Holly level worker? Good hand on the lower mid-card. I can't imagine him showing much personality or creativity without being handed gimmicks like he was 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted June 6, 2017 Share Posted June 6, 2017 On 5/19/2017 at 10:09 PM, Wyld Samurai said: The 96 SS finish was lifted from the Wrestlemania finish against Piper Which was how Pedro won the WWWF title basically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister TV Posted June 6, 2017 Share Posted June 6, 2017 4 hours ago, CreativeControl said: Probably a Bob Holly level worker? Good hand on the lower mid-card. I can't imagine him showing much personality or creativity without being handed gimmicks like he was I can't see him ever making it up to New York. He's more likely going to be a mid carder in Tennessee looking at his $30 payoff and wondering why he got into this business. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwoy2j Posted June 6, 2017 Share Posted June 6, 2017 On 5/19/2017 at 10:09 PM, Wyld Samurai said: The 96 SS finish was lifted from the Wrestlemania finish against Piper One of the cool things about that finish is that Austin worked callbacks to it into a couple of his other matches. At WMX17, he caught Rock with a Million Dollar Dream and Rock went for the Bret Counter. However, Austin is wise to that now and released the hold instead of getting pinned. At Summerslam 02, same thing. Austin had Angle in the MDD and Angle countered. This time, Austin has learned a bit more and instead of just releasing the hold to avoid being pinned, he’s learned enough to roll through the counter and keep the hold on. Awesome storytelling. Stuff like that is why I watch wrestling. 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Iron Yuppie Posted June 6, 2017 Share Posted June 6, 2017 I've been on a recent Network kick watching pre-steroid trial stuff, and I just finished watching all of WrestleMania VII (previously, I'd only seen Warrior-Macho, an all-time favorite, and Jake Roberts-Rick Martel. Unrelated takeaway: Warlord-British Bulldog from that show is an excellent match, way better than it has any right to be). The main event angle played off Desert Storm was tasteless, hurt the business and even more cringeworthy in retrospect, given how much of a dirtbag Hogan's proven to be. A What-If from that era: What if the WrestleMania VII was the culmination of a nearly year-long build to Hogan-Earthquake? Earthquake was initially built brilliantly, moved well and had an intimidating, main-event heel aura before being cooled off. Vince was never going to fill the Coliseum, but would the WWF have been better off closing VII with a proper Hogan-Earthquake blow-off and eschewing all the Desert Storm crap? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BurningBeard Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 Wasn't the original idea for Hogan v Warrior Part II at WMVII or was that just internet mumblings that've built into a credible story? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister TV Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 5 hours ago, CreativeControl said: Wasn't the original idea for Hogan v Warrior Part II at WMVII or was that just internet mumblings that've built into a credible story? They announced that WMVII was going to be at the LA Coliseum at WMVI so at that point they might have been gearing up for a Hogan - Warrior rematch, when the match didn't do as good as expected on PPV they most likely changed things up. Earthquake vs. Hogan at WMVII makes sense if you look at the finish of SummerSlam 90, Hogan only wins via countout and has to be "saved" by the Big Boss Man, they could have easily dragged that out to WMVII. Slaughter was already signed and had vignettes airing in late June/early July, Iraq didn't invade Kuwait until the beginning of August and it was in early November that it seemed pretty clear that George H.W. Bush was doing everything in his power to get the US into a war with Iraq so the company line of Sarge being brought in as a Iraqi sympathizer is bull. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clintthecrippler Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 Wasn't the original Slaughter heel gimmick in 1990 more that he thought America had "gone soft" in general as opposed to being a foreign country-embracing turncoat? I remember his original promos being more centered around being upset that American fans were embracing that "no-good commie" Nikolai Volkoff, and the Iraqi sympathizer aspect didn't come into play until a couple months after he returned. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbarrie Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 Yes. He was initially presented as an old soldier who couldn't let the Cold War go. It was actually fairly clever. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
odessasteps Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 Yes. Arguably a gimmick that could work today, although it would be a baby face character to some. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nice Guy Eddie Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 I want to live in a world where Sheik Tugboat was a reality. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Iron Yuppie Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 5 hours ago, clintthecrippler said: Wasn't the original Slaughter heel gimmick in 1990 more that he thought America had "gone soft" in general as opposed to being a foreign country-embracing turncoat? I remember his original promos being more centered around being upset that American fans were embracing that "no-good commie" Nikolai Volkoff, and the Iraqi sympathizer aspect didn't come into play until a couple months after he returned. Yeah, the original heel stuff with Slaughter in 1990 was pretty good and creative. The Iraqi sympathizer gimmick was exploitative trash (save for the bitchin' pointed toe boots Sarge started wearing). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HumanChessgame Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 5 hours ago, tbarrie said: Yes. He was initially presented as an old soldier who couldn't let the Cold War go. It was actually fairly clever. 5 hours ago, odessasteps said: Yes. Arguably a gimmick that could work today, although it would be a baby face character to some. So, basically Zeb Coulter? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyld Samurai Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 On 6/6/2017 at 10:17 AM, The Iron Yuppie said: Unrelated takeaway: Warlord-British Bulldog from that show is an excellent match, way better than it has any right to be). Warlord and Bulldog worked together for something closr to a year on house shows. They definitely had yhat worked out for the big show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuerrillaMonsoon Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 Weird timeframe for Earthquake - they did the non-clean finish at Summerslam, another count-out loss at Survivor Series, and then last eliminated in the Rumble......paid off with a 3 minute squash of Greg Valentine at Wrestlemania. By Summerslam, he's feuding with the Bushwhackers. Wish they'd done a heel vs heel number one contenders match with Taker instead. Taker's booking is similarly askew - has a few good spots in the Rumble, squashes Snuka in a nothing match at Mania, not on the card at Summerslam, champ by Survivor Series. If Warrior held them up for that much money - why not have him put over Taker either? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nice Guy Eddie Posted June 8, 2017 Share Posted June 8, 2017 1 hour ago, RolandTHTG said: Weird timeframe for Earthquake - they did the non-clean finish at Summerslam, another count-out loss at Survivor Series, and then last eliminated in the Rumble......paid off with a 3 minute squash of Greg Valentine at Wrestlemania. By Summerslam, he's feuding with the Bushwhackers. Wish they'd done a heel vs heel number one contenders match with Taker instead. Taker's booking is similarly askew - has a few good spots in the Rumble, squashes Snuka in a nothing match at Mania, not on the card at Summerslam, champ by Survivor Series. If Warrior held them up for that much money - why not have him put over Taker either? For Earthquake, don't forget the Jake feud post WM7. I know Jake pinned Quake clean with the DDT at an MSG house show. Other than that, there was no blow off to their feud. By early summer, Jake is involved with the Warrior and Taker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victator Posted June 8, 2017 Share Posted June 8, 2017 Maybe it was a different time. But never saw why Slaughter/Hogan was so bad when wrestling and media in general had exploited war forever. Slaughter/Sheik was exploiting the hostage crisis. Maybe its living in a post 9/11 world where any tragedy can be exploited and I'm numb to it. I thought the idea of Slaughter being so desperate for the title he betrayed every idea he ever had. Even bringing in two of his arch enemies as allies. I really enjoyed how bloody and hate filled the feud was. Some how Hogan's most heated feuds involve guys who betrayed the fans. Also enjoyed Slaughter's face turn for how awkward it was. How he could not get his friends or family back. That his career was ruined, but he wanted his country back. Then Hogan not forgiving him because he went too far. Even though he forgave Orndorff and eventually accepted Piper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister TV Posted June 8, 2017 Share Posted June 8, 2017 7 hours ago, Victator said: Maybe it was a different time. But never saw why Slaughter/Hogan was so bad when wrestling and media in general had exploited war forever. Slaughter/Sheik was exploiting the hostage crisis. Maybe its living in a post 9/11 world where any tragedy can be exploited and I'm numb to it. I thought the idea of Slaughter being so desperate for the title he betrayed every idea he ever had. Even bringing in two of his arch enemies as allies. I really enjoyed how bloody and hate filled the feud was. Some how Hogan's most heated feuds involve guys who betrayed the fans. Also enjoyed Slaughter's face turn for how awkward it was. How he could not get his friends or family back. That his career was ruined, but he wanted his country back. Then Hogan not forgiving him because he went too far. Even though he forgave Orndorff and eventually accepted Piper. Slaughter/Sheik was four years after the hostage crisis and it was never played up, they made the hard push of Sheiky Baby being from Iran though. The German and Japanese gimmicks didn't start until the 50's and were one of the reasons Pro Wrestling was considered low brow plus most of the German heels used iron crosses instead of swastikas. It was a very different time and everyone is numb to war and it's consequences thanks to the Gulf War and it's sequel in 2003. In the run up to the Gulf War it was thought that the US and coalition forces would suffer heavy casualties and the images of Vietnam were still fresh in everyone's minds, add in the talk of terrorists attacking the US you get a public that's a little on edge. I think Vince read all of the patriotism that came out during the build up wrong, the patriotism exploded because of fear and anxiety not the rah-rah USA is #1 patriotism of 1980's America(it became that once the war ended up being a squash match), if it was 1985 and they had Sarge side with Iran or the USSR it would have worked. Had they just had Hogan and the faces all come out waving the American flag and dedicating their matches to the troops they would have gotten really good pr and Hogan would have most likely been allowed to go visit the troops in Saudi Arabia. I never saw Sarge as desperate for the title and his being a turn coat had nothing to do with him getting it. Through kayfabe glasses he didn't deserve a title shot, wins against Volkoff at house shows and scoring pinfalls over Luke and Butch at Survivor Series shouldn't get someone a high profile title shot, plus he only won the belt because of Savage and Sherri. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwoy2j Posted June 8, 2017 Share Posted June 8, 2017 It's funny to think that Hogan/Sarge would've been a huge dream match 5 or 6 years prior to WM7. It never would've happened due to Slaughter's GI Joe deal but could you imagine if he did the bitter soldier gimmick against Hogan? Saying that America has gone soft b/c they cheer for guys like Hogan and that true patriotism is more than just waving a flag around and spouting off about demandments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Iron Yuppie Posted June 8, 2017 Share Posted June 8, 2017 Man, Sarge vs. Hogan at Mania 2 just might have been a main event worthy of the L.A. Coliseum. Sarge's bitter soldier gimmick in the mid-'80s, with that decade's prevalent jingoism, would have drawn incredible heat. Add that Hulk was a star on the rise at the time, and not hurdling quickly on the downslope, and that's an amazing main-event feud. I think Sarge-Hogan when it happened, with the added grab-ass interjected (the Photoshopped picture with Saddam, Sarge in a Keffiyeh, Hulk analogizing burning his t-shirt to burning the American flag) really helped sour the mainstream on wrestling. It's tough to pinpoint that angle specifically, when the steroid trials and sexual assault allegations surfaced almost immediately after, but Mania VII certainly did WWF no favors. I know Bob Costas publicly lambasted it; and since Vince is a petty bastard, I don't doubt that had Vince already steaming before his meltdown on Costas Sports a decade later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyJ Posted June 8, 2017 Share Posted June 8, 2017 As a kid I remember never buying Slaughter. I was accustomed to seeing these enormous musclemen fighting. Slaughter looked like a middle aged dad. Couldn't you argue Zeus in 89 and Warrior in 90 turned off the adults and Slaughter in 91 turned off the kids. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyld Samurai Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 I'm still shocked that Slaughter went along with the character assassination. How can GI Joe turn against America and become a Saddam Hussein sympathizer? I would think Mattel would have thrown him a few bones to kill that idea. ... that would have made an amazing GI Joe Movie. Slaughter gets Stockholm Syndrome and joins COBRA. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuerrillaMonsoon Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 I'd have been up for them trying to compete with WCW bringing in Robocop, with the big reveal that Jake Roberts was the Cobra Commander. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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