Happ Hazzard Posted April 25, 2020 Share Posted April 25, 2020 What if Vince Sr. dies 5 years earlier and Vince Jr takes over in 1978 and tries to go national at that point? Who does he go with as champion? A babyface Superstar Graham? Dusty Rhodes? Would he have known about Hogan that early on? What other guys would he have brought in to be his top stars? Would the NWA and AWA would have been a better position to fight the expansion at that point? Since MTV hadn't started yet, what pop-culture trend could Vince latch onto instead of "Rock n' Wrestling"? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
odessasteps Posted April 25, 2020 Share Posted April 25, 2020 1978 also means no Sheik as xenophobic champion exploring the hostage crisis. (Might depend on when in 78) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happ Hazzard Posted April 25, 2020 Share Posted April 25, 2020 1 hour ago, odessasteps said: 1978 also means no Sheik as xenophobic champion exploring the hostage crisis. (Might depend on when in 78) To make things easier, early '78, with Superstar Graham still champion. So you could either have Backlund still win the belt, have Dusty win it, or have Superstar turn babyface. Or do something else entirely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thee Reverend Axl Future Posted April 26, 2020 Share Posted April 26, 2020 VKM's takeover was successful because of technological breakthrough in media that changed the US entertainment consumption from local to national - cable, PPV, VHS, et al. Some of this he capitalized on, arguably before any of the more tradition bound promoters could (and later younger ones would not have had access to the capital and talent that WWF had). Others breakthroughs were happily timed, but he moved on it. If his control of the company came earlier, and he did not wait, it would have been much more difficult to come out on top. Hogan was a perfect choice for that time, but would not have been before that. I think that he could have found a substitute - that is what promoters and bookers do. - RAF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AxB Posted April 26, 2020 Share Posted April 26, 2020 You know how before he brought the WWWF off his Dad, Vince was trying really hard to succeed at anything that wasn't Pro-Wrestling? Like he was promoting concerts and Evel Knieval jumping Snake River Canyon and all that? What if it had worked? What if he'd become a Millionaire TV producer (or something) while Vince Sr. was still running the New York territory, and so never felt the need to buy him out? Who takes over when Senior dies? Gorilla Monsoon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SorceressKnight Posted April 26, 2020 Share Posted April 26, 2020 5 hours ago, thee Reverend Axl Future said: VKM's takeover was successful because of technological breakthrough in media that changed the US entertainment consumption from local to national - cable, PPV, VHS, et al. Some of this he capitalized on, arguably before any of the more tradition bound promoters could (and later younger ones would not have had access to the capital and talent that WWF had). Others breakthroughs were happily timed, but he moved on it. If his control of the company came earlier, and he did not wait, it would have been much more difficult to come out on top. Hogan was a perfect choice for that time, but would not have been before that. I think that he could have found a substitute - that is what promoters and bookers do. - RAF Even that is a question mark as well, though. In 1978, WWF would have been in just as good shape- possibly even better, to go national if it's a technology-based thing. Cable TV was starting to be rolled out around that time period, and WWF running through Madison Square Garden meant that the MSG Network was going to send WWF programming nationwide through cable anyways, giving them an immediate shot in the arm (and the fact that this was when many top stars from around the country/world would do some jaunts in MSG would give them the same talent aggregate aura that built their national rise.) Hell, you can even make a strong case WWF could have been slightly better suited to start a national rise in 1978 than they were in 1983: Columbus, OH was becoming the first big cable TV area in the late '70s and starting a lot of the major force of cable TV. We saw this in wrestling as Georgia Championship Wrestling expanding into Ohio, becoming the first promotion to try to use cable TV to expand nationally outside the region. Geographically, since WWF was the Northeast promotion and they had Pennsylvania as a bordering state already, if Vince tried using cable TV to take Ohio, Vince probably would have been able to take Ohio easily, getting top WWF names into Ohio shows without hurting the Northeast territory (unlike GCW, which was hurt in their home region by sending all the TV stars to Ohio shows), and with none of the NWA promoters batting an eye at WWF trying to take Ohio for their promotion...hell, due to geographic reasons, it's more likely if that battle happens, the NWA says "we have to make sure WWF wins Ohio and not Georgia- send all our top NWA stars to WWF shows in the state to make sure the WWF chokes out Georgia Championship Wrestling." 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thee Reverend Axl Future Posted April 26, 2020 Share Posted April 26, 2020 Not out of the realm of possibility, SK, but do you remember (I am old) or are familiar with cable pre-1978? I was hardly national, and had a very limited availability. No MTV yet, either and closed circuit was far more prevalent than PPV and not nearly as lucrative. Mr. McMahon could have even started later in my view and been as successful, since none of the other major promoters would have had the vision or initiative. VKM: inevitable. (hip reference there) - yeah we all saw the meme no need to post it GetDown, RAF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SorceressKnight Posted April 27, 2020 Share Posted April 27, 2020 17 hours ago, thee Reverend Axl Future said: Not out of the realm of possibility, SK, but do you remember (I am old) or are familiar with cable pre-1978? I was hardly national, and had a very limited availability. No MTV yet, either and closed circuit was far more prevalent than PPV and not nearly as lucrative. Mr. McMahon could have even started later in my view and been as successful, since none of the other major promoters would have had the vision or initiative. VKM: inevitable. (hip reference there) - yeah we all saw the meme no need to post it GetDown, RAF I'm not old enough to remember pre-1978 cable, but I have read a lot of oral histories of different cable networks (MTV, Nickelodeon, ESPN, etc.) and am relatively familiar with how cable was in the 1970s. Most of the pre-1978 cable would be weak otherwise- with only "MSG had its own network, and as such it was able to take WWF's Madison Square Garden shows national as a result" giving WWF cable TV in the 1970s cable landscape. However, that's why I think my theory there was the most likely realm of possibility just from the things I read: The biggest refrain for what would tie into WWF succeeding in 1978 boils down to "Columbus, Ohio was a notable early adopter for cable, and their QUBE system basically was the beginning for much of cable that we know today (being the start of Nickelodeon, The Movie Channel, and eventually from there MTV.)." This ties into what we know about wrestling companies that started to go national (most notably, Georgia Championship Wrestling using the "deliberately make a controversial non-finish in a 1980 NWA Title match, then tell the viewers 'If you hate the result of this match and think they got it wrong? Mail your complaints into this address and maybe it can make the NWA right this wrong!'...then ignoring the letters and focusing on where the letters were being mailed from. They realized "shit, we're getting a lot of letters from Ohio- maybe we should expand there", and the rest was history), and you get my reasoning for the logic. The only thing from early cable that could have possibly helped out WWF in their expansion was the bigger fish aspect that also could have helped them well: Namely, ESPN forming in the late 1970s and their goal to be based primarily around Connecticut/New England sports programming in the beginning. If ESPN was forming and WWF was going national at the time- especially since WWF was always based in New England and early ESPN was not adverse to having pro wrestling on its channel- that probably could have changed things for WWF for the better (though even then, MSG becoming the USA Network also helped WWF's matters eventually.) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happ Hazzard Posted April 28, 2020 Share Posted April 28, 2020 A "Disco n' Wrestling connection" would have been something to behold. Debbie Harry was a noted wrestling fan so maybe she gets the Cyndi Lauper spot. I don't know who you'd have as the equivalent of Mr T in the late 70s. I guess the obvious choice is Muhammad Ali. Dusty Rhodes and Muhammad Ali teaming against two top heels (off the top of my head, Pat Patterson and Ken Patera) would have drawn pretty well I think. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
odessasteps Posted April 28, 2020 Share Posted April 28, 2020 Burt Reynolds was a wrestling fan. But he was likely too small to do something in the ring without exposing his size. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SorceressKnight Posted April 28, 2020 Share Posted April 28, 2020 (edited) Reynolds may have been small, but he WAS a former college football player, so it cancels out a small size at least. Even if, for celebrities you also have the biggest x-factor that borderlines on a possible What If? in and of itself: Andy Kaufman tried to bring his "Inter-Gender Wrestling Champion of the World" schtick to the WWF first, but Vince Sr. refused to bring Kaufman in, and eventually Kaufman was given the contact info for Memphis, who were willing. Considering how VKM has always run WWF, it likely goes without saying VKM absolutely would have brought Andy Kaufman into WWF. Hell, there were claims that even as Kaufman left wrestling and was battling the cancer that probably took his life, VKM was still trying to get Kaufman for the first Wrestlemania. Edited April 28, 2020 by SorceressKnight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happ Hazzard Posted April 28, 2020 Share Posted April 28, 2020 (edited) Oh yeah, with Vince Jr in charge, Kaufman absolutely comes to the WWF. I don't know who he would wrestle up there though. If we're theorizing that Dusty would have been champion than maybe him. It wouldn't have worked nearly as well though as it did with New Yorker Kaufman making fun of the Memphis hayseed/hillbilly fans. Edited April 28, 2020 by Happ Hazzard 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordi the former AEW fan Posted April 28, 2020 Share Posted April 28, 2020 The Buffalo Bills had a handsome and popular running back who rushed for 2000 yards in one season and started in national TV commercials. Maybe he could have been a celebrity guest wrestler in the '70s! 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AxB Posted April 30, 2020 Share Posted April 30, 2020 See when the original AJPW split happened, where Tenryu and a couple of his boys (Kodo Fuyuki being the most prominent) left to form SWS which became WAR? What if Toshiaki Kawada went with them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.H. Posted April 30, 2020 Share Posted April 30, 2020 Kawada ends up in New Japan after the NJ/WAR Feud James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AxB Posted April 30, 2020 Share Posted April 30, 2020 Well, also the Holy Demon Army is now Taue and Kobashi, whilst the Kobashi spot as Misawa's second goes from Kikuchi to young Akiyama. Maybe Johnny Ace gets a stronger push as top Gaijin when Steve Williams gets banned from Japan. But AJPW is less of a success without the calling card of having the best matches in history, so maybe Baba's hardline resistance to inter promotional matches goes away earlier... or the Noah split happens while he's still alive. Meanwhile WAR is more succesful than it was, but probably goes out of business anyway. But Kawada vs Tarzan Goto (underneath the Onita vs Tenryu main event) is now considered the best FMW match in history. If we play with the idea that Kawada leaves and Fuyuki doesn't, and then you just plug them into each other's careers... I just can't picture Kawada as the leader of Team No Respect. Or imagine that Misawa vs Fuyuki is the best in-ring feud ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordi the former AEW fan Posted May 1, 2020 Share Posted May 1, 2020 If Kawada had left AJPW early, everyone's All Time Greatest Matches lists would look so different! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramo2653 Posted May 9, 2020 Share Posted May 9, 2020 Feel free to roast me if this came up in the thread before, but what would AEW look like if Jericho never signed? Would the Elite have an earlier split? Would MJF be the top heel? Would they have gone with Omega as first champ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SorceressKnight Posted May 9, 2020 Share Posted May 9, 2020 If Jericho doesn't sign? Honestly, it seems pretty likely that AEW doesn't have as successful a rollout they did have. The Elite's mostly devolving to "just some guys" on the show kind of shows the problem with AEW's roster otherwise: the Elite were basically cult heroes to even die-hard wrestling fans, let alone outside the wrestling bubble. It ended up similar to why Herb Abrams had to sign Andre the Giant, even if he couldn't wrestle anymore in a UWF match and had no purpose in a non-wrestling role...but he could go to sponsors/cable networks and say "I have a wrestling promotion, and I have ANDRE THE GIANT!" Jericho was more important as the "we have a wrestling promotion, and we have CHRIS JERICHO" person than anything he did in the ring...and even with hindsight being 20/20, AEW would have a slightly arrested development without Jericho. Without Jericho, AEW won't have their big draw until Moxley shows up in May...and him showing up at the end of May probably kicks them out of pilot season and may have held back the TNT deal for a year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyld Samurai Posted May 10, 2020 Share Posted May 10, 2020 On 4/28/2020 at 3:24 AM, Happ Hazzard said: Oh yeah, with Vince Jr in charge, Kaufman absolutely comes to the WWF. I don't know who he would wrestle up there though. If we're theorizing that Dusty would have been champion than maybe him. It wouldn't have worked nearly as well though as it did with New Yorker Kaufman making fun of the Memphis hayseed/hillbilly fans. Kaufman is absolutely getting destroyed by Moolah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SorceressKnight Posted May 10, 2020 Share Posted May 10, 2020 24 minutes ago, Wyld Samurai said: Kaufman is absolutely getting destroyed by Moolah I don't think that happens in 1978, honestly. Given how Moolah's usually a villain and how the Lauper feud went, it seems more likely than it looks the storyline in that case goes: Moolah loses the WWF Women's Title to Kaufman, Kaufman brings it with him to his performances and defends it, and eventually the prettiest girl in Moolah's stable beats Kaufman and gets pushed. Even if the "Moolah's title was still technically the NWA Women's Title and presumably the NWA would have never stood for that", it likely "just" goes to the Lauper angle: Kaufman manages Moolah vs. the prettiest girl in Moolah's stable, and the woman in question goes over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuerrillaMonsoon Posted May 10, 2020 Share Posted May 10, 2020 17 hours ago, Ramo2653 said: Feel free to roast me if this came up in the thread before, but what would AEW look like if Jericho never signed? Would the Elite have an earlier split? Would MJF be the top heel? Would they have gone with Omega as first champ? We're into month twelve of the Elite vs the Dark Order Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramo2653 Posted May 10, 2020 Share Posted May 10, 2020 8 hours ago, RolandTHTG said: We're into month twelve of the Elite vs the Dark Order Oof, you might not be wrong there. It just hit me yesterday when I was downloading CAWs for WWE 2K19 of all things. Jericho looms large over the company, he's a foil for so many people that I can't imagine the shows without him. I'd have to guess that Spears is featured more and maybe more "I respect you but we might fight" type of matches. Or PAC is higher up the card. Maybe Penta and Fenix are singles guys more? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BurningBeard Posted May 10, 2020 Share Posted May 10, 2020 Conspiracy theory time: Jericho is Vince’s latest saboteur he has planted in rival promotions. See also: - Hulk Hogan - Vince Russo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southside Jim Posted May 10, 2020 Share Posted May 10, 2020 I shudder at the thought of Tye Dillinger as AEW's lead heel. It's bad enough they're dragging this "Shawn searches for a tag partner" angle as long as they have. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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