Wrestling What Ifs

[SorceressKnight]

4 hours ago, happjack said:

Where did Backlund say this? I can see Vince spitballing ideas and saying something like "hey we can make you a punk rocker" without having any clue on what a punk rocker even was with Backlund only knowing about Punk Rock from that episode of Quincy. Or Vince just wanted to be done with Backlund and suggested the hair dye and punk rock stuff to get him to quit. 

Apparently on both sides, it was about trying to change Backlund's image for the times (remember, Backlund was as unpopular as Roman Reigns at that point.) 

[Mister TV]

42 minutes ago, SorceressKnight said:

Apparently on both sides, it was about trying to change Backlund's image for the times (remember, Backlund was as unpopular as Roman Reigns at that point.) 

As a kid in a WWF town during the pre and early expansion era Backlund wasn't hated or unpopular in a Roman Reigns sense, his act and matches were well past their shelf date, he still got a good pop when he made his comebacks but everyone was snoozing until that point. The likes of Jimmy Snuka & Rocky Johnson pre expansion and Hulk Hogan & Sgt. Slaughter post expansion were what we wanted in Pittsburgh at that time to the point where Backlund basically got demoted on the Civic Arena cards in 1983, he either finished the night in a quick match against the likes of Ivan Koloff and George Steele or was in a B show town, while Johnson and Snuka each worked three match runs against Muraco for the IC belt. Once Hogan showed up Backlund was still positioned as a top face but you could tell his heart really wasn't in it and the influx of new talent both face and heel by the summer of 84 got him lost in the shuffle.

Here's a run down of the Pittsburgh Civic Arena house show main's and Backlund matches in 1983, I went to almost all of these.

January (14,000) - Backlund vs. Muraco in double count out

February (10,000) - Backlund pins Muraco in Texas Death Match, decent drop off from the previous month.

April (16,000 sell out) Rocky Johnson vs. Muraco IC title match in main event slot before intermission, Backlund teams with Snuka & Andre against Studd & The Wild Samoans to close the night. 

May (14,000) Rocky Johnson vs. Muraco IC title Texas Death Match that ends with Muraco leaving the ring, this was in the main event slot. Backlund closed the night in a WWF title match against Ivan Koloff. 

June (16,000 sell out) Rocky Johnson vs. Muraco in a cage match for the IC title, card also had Andre vs. Studd and Snuka & Putski vs. The Wild Samoans for the tag belts, Backlund is working a spot show in Brooklyn, NY.

July (14,000) Andre vs. Studd in a Body Slam Match in the main event slot, Snuka vs. Muraco double dq for the IC belt and Backlund ends the night in a WWF title match against George Steele.

August (14,000) Snuka vs. Muraco for IC title in pre intermission slot and the night ends with Andre vs. Studd in a cage with Swede Hanson as guest ref, Backlund was in Framingham, Mass against Afa.

October (12,000) Snuka vs. Muraco for IC title in a strap match, no Andre or Backlund on the card and the extra month lay off really cooled off the Snuka-Muraco feud for us yinzers, Backlund was in Waterville, Maine against Slaughter.

November (10,000) Backlund vs. Masked Superstar for WWF title in main event slot, no Snuka or Andre on the card to help boost the house.

December (6,000) Backlund vs. Masked Superstar for WWF title ends in a count out, other big match was Snuka and Arnie Skaaland against Muraco & Captain Lou.

[Thomas Bugg]

What if CM Punk followed through with the part of The Pipebomb where he thought about taking the WWE Championship to Shin Nihon Puroresu? This was 2011, so Nakamura, Tanahashi Goto, Shibata, Nagata,  Kojima and Makabe were in the main event picture, so there's a lot of dream matches (well, I don't know about Makabe.....)

[BloodyChamp]

What if The Giant would have beat Hogan clean at Halloween Havoc? That’s like asking what if water wasn’t wet I know but the answer to that would have been...whatever WCW would have wanted. They would have had out of the giant man gimmick what everybody before tried to get out of it - a truly unbeatable Giant. He could have been champion for years and whoever beat him could have been the next Hogan. 

[twiztor]

1 hour ago, BloodyChamp said:

What if The Giant would have beat Hogan clean at Halloween Havoc? That’s like asking what if water wasn’t wet I know but the answer to that would have been...whatever WCW would have wanted. They would have had out of the giant man gimmick what everybody before tried to get out of it - a truly unbeatable Giant. He could have been champion for years and whoever beat him could have been the next Hogan. 

Nash still would have powerbombed him on his head.

[MORELOCK]

7 hours ago, BloodyChamp said:

What if The Giant would have beat Hogan clean at Halloween Havoc? That’s like asking what if water wasn’t wet I know but the answer to that would have been...whatever WCW would have wanted. They would have had out of the giant man gimmick what everybody before tried to get out of it - a truly unbeatable Giant. He could have been champion for years and whoever beat him could have been the next Hogan. 

Lots and lots of stretching here, but the main problem with this is that it would have derailed the NWO angle, which was way better and far more successful than any angle with Giant could possibly have been.

[Casey]

On 8/21/2019 at 11:34 AM, Thomas Bugg said:

What if CM Punk followed through with the part of The Pipebomb where he thought about taking the WWE Championship to Shin Nihon Puroresu? This was 2011, so Nakamura, Tanahashi Goto, Shibata, Nagata,  Kojima and Makabe were in the main event picture, so there's a lot of dream matches (well, I don't know about Makabe.....)

Granted, at the time, Davey Richards was on top, but Punk defending the WWE Title in 2011 ROH would have been fun. You still had a lot of soon-to-be WWE talent that we all love running around there, like Generico, Steen, Claudio, Hero, Strong, etc. And then other non-future WWE employees, like Eddie Edwards and Christopher Daniels. I think that's the more likely scenario if WWE went that route, although if them working with EVOLVE right now is solely due to Gabe, then it's probably possible that they work with Dragon Gate USA instead of ROH in 2011.

[BurningBeard]

42 minutes ago, MORELOCK said:

Lots and lots of stretching here, but the main problem with this is that it would have derailed the NWO angle, which was way better and far more successful than any angle with Giant could possibly have been.

Along these lines, I never really understood why Luger got to win the belt while the whole Sting angle was going on. Surely you just have Hogan to run roughshod until Starrcade and Sting steamrolls him (lol)

[BloodyChamp]

16 hours ago, MORELOCK said:

Lots and lots of stretching here, but the main problem with this is that it would have derailed the NWO angle, which was way better and far more successful than any angle with Giant could possibly have been.

I don’t agree had the Giant been made a real heel, big man champion. Proof is actually in the NWO storyline as Luger’s win over him was it’s pinnacle. It was impossible with Hogan running things sure but that wasn’t the point. Meanwhile the NWO storyline, as great as it was, amounted to crap on payday. The NWO storyline was like going on the trip of a lifetime then crashing into an iceberg and dying. I’d have rather just not went lol!

[HumanChessgame]

Luger has popped up in conversation around the board a bit in recent weeks. It made me wonder, I thought The Narcissist gimmick was a good fit for him and I seem to recall him being built up as a challenger to Bret (they worked eachother on the house show circuit at some point I think?). Onto the question - what would have happened if they'd kept him in that gimmick longer term instead of his abrupt face turn into the patriotic opponent to Yokozuna? What does the summer of 1993 look like if The Lex Express and his face push never happen? Who does he feud with and who gets in a program with Yoko after Hogan leaves?

[SorceressKnight]

5 hours ago, HumanChessgame said:

Luger has popped up in conversation around the board a bit in recent weeks. It made me wonder, I thought The Narcissist gimmick was a good fit for him and I seem to recall him being built up as a challenger to Bret (they worked eachother on the house show circuit at some point I think?). Onto the question - what would have happened if they'd kept him in that gimmick longer term instead of his abrupt face turn into the patriotic opponent to Yokozuna? What does the summer of 1993 look like if The Lex Express and his face push never happen? Who does he feud with and who gets in a program with Yoko after Hogan leaves?

I don't know what Luger does in 1993 without the face push,  but the summer of 1993 had so many good options you could go anywhere with it. Either you go back to the well of Bret vs. Yoko (and likely in the process keep Owen as a babyface low-carder, and with the "he was planning to retire until the push he got" that changes things in a whole way).

Even then, I'd be most likely to assume the summer of 1993 would be Tatanka vs. Yokozuna, Undefeated Streak vs. Unstoppable Monster, while keeping Bret valid for Mania X as in real life (and with Tatanka kind of fizzling out after his streak ended, there wouldn't need to be the co-champs angle in 1994...which in the process probably ends Owen's big push, and from there goes outwards.) 

[The Great ML]

I still contend that if you weren't going to keep the belt on Bret, Razor should have had Luger's push.

[SorceressKnight]

1 hour ago, The Great ML said:

I still contend that if you weren't going to keep the belt on Bret, Razor should have had Luger's push.

Honestly, that's one of the pluses for the Yoko reign...there was no SUREFIRE replacement for Hogan, but a lot of "okay" replacements where you could at least get one big match out of it. Bret having a rematch was valid, Razor was a white hot face turn, Tatanka's undefeated streak was there, Perfect was catching fire as a face, Savage was still wrestling in 1993- heck, you could even take a flier on guys like Crush or the 1-2-3 Kid and get at least a fun Raw main event out of it. 

[GuerrillaMonsoon]

In hindsight, Luger winning the Rumble in 93, going on to face Bret at Mania (with or without Hogan shit..which probably works better with him putting Luger over on the way out).

Either Bret retaining and then dropping to Yoko at Summerslam who beats Savage or Hennig at Mania, or Luger feuding with Hennig or Tatanka through the summer works better I think.

[J.H.]

Wait, wasn't Crush failing to beat Yoko what led to his heel turn and feud with Savage?

James

[Guest Stefanie Without Stefanie]

1 hour ago, J.H. said:

Wait, wasn't Crush failing to beat Yoko what led to his heel turn and feud with Savage?

James

If I remember correctly, it was because Yoko hit Crush with four banzai drops and Savage didn't save him until after the fourth one, but since Savage was a commentator, he wasn't allowed to get involved in matches.

[AxB]

What if, when Vince first went national in 1984, the USA Network gave him a weekly 3 hour live show every Monday night? And said no to endless squash matches, give the people competitive matches between featured stars every week?

Other than their boast about being the longest running weekly episodic Sports Entertainment interactive media presentation on television being slightly more impressive, I mean. Does the increased exposure lead to some guys who were superstars then (and legends now) instead having less mystique and instead considered boring and overexposed? And are there guys who kind of sunk into the pack at the time, that would have flourished more on the strength of being able to show what great matches they could have on a week in week out basis?

[thee Reverend Axl Future]

1 hour ago, AxB said:

What if, when Vince first went national in 1984, the USA Network gave him a weekly 3 hour live show every Monday night? And said no to endless squash matches, give the people competitive matches between featured stars every week?

Other than their boast about being the longest running weekly episodic Sports Entertainment interactive media presentation on television being slightly more impressive, I mean. Does the increased exposure lead to some guys who were superstars then (and legends now) instead having less mystique and instead considered boring and overexposed? And are there guys who kind of sunk into the pack at the time, that would have flourished more on the strength of being able to show what great matches they could have on a week in week out basis?

This is a great hypothetical.

In my opinion, and trying to summarize my answer as much as possible, running a promotion during the pre-cable era was based on live shows being the cash cow. Later, even as PPV dollars supplemented arena tickets sales, the model was "don't give away the big matches on TV". It seemed to worked, as it always had. Stick with what works was the motto, innovation was not a virtue to the people who were putting up the money (i.e. the promoters) Just as the earlier (pre-TV) business model of wrestling was based on boxing, when a new medium came along the business and business model adapted. Mr. McMahon's genius was in capitalizing on this modern media landscape (inspired, aided and abetted by folks like Jim Barnett, Joseph Cohen, Dick Ebersol, even Pat Patterson and Ted Turner) and radically changing the old rassling promoting style (not necessarily the in-ring stuff) to benefit from these new money streams.

The heart of your inquiry: some workers were best displayed in the old (squash-heavy) format, but no one would have lasted long if they couldn't deliver live. Certainly the most talented folks could have thrived in either era - working is working - and there are probably a few "top" guys now that wouldn't have gotten over as well back then. It is about the presentation of the product and the style of the TV shows more than the actual wrestlers. The emphasis these days is about the actual in-ring product and less about the "working"/hype/kay fabe. I hate to maybe misuse an analogy, but if we take movies as a comparison, it is less about the story and cinematography these days and more about the acting and dialogue.

I will mention that the wrestling style of today (and the schedule, travel, etc.) is not as conducive to a long term career. The more working, the less strain on the body. But of course, why would management care about that? These are independent contractors, after all...

- RAF

[AxB]

What I was thinking was, a lot of Hogan's mystique came from the fact that he didn't wrestle on free TV. He'd do his promos (which would be a couple of minutes long at most) and hype things up, but if you wanted to see him in the ring, you had to buy a ticket (and his house show matches were usually short squashes) or a PPV.

Now take 1985 Hulk Hogan and have him cut a twenty minute in ring promo at the start of the show every week, and then wrestle a 20 minute match in the main event. There's every chance he'd be about as popular as Seth Rollins is today.

[GuerrillaMonsoon]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuesday_Night_Titans

[Mister TV]

On 11/15/2019 at 4:35 PM, AxB said:

What if, when Vince first went national in 1984, the USA Network gave him a weekly 3 hour live show every Monday night? And said no to endless squash matches, give the people competitive matches between featured stars every week?

Other than their boast about being the longest running weekly episodic Sports Entertainment interactive media presentation on television being slightly more impressive, I mean. Does the increased exposure lead to some guys who were superstars then (and legends now) instead having less mystique and instead considered boring and overexposed? And are there guys who kind of sunk into the pack at the time, that would have flourished more on the strength of being able to show what great matches they could have on a week in week out basis?

USA Network would run house shows from MSG, Cap Center and the Spectrum in 1983 and 1984 so what you’re “What If’ing” kind of happened, sure you’d get over 10 minutes of SD Jones vs. Tiger Chung Lee but you’d also get stuff like the Sgt. Slaughter - Iron Sheik Boot Camp Match. 

The WWF was pretty overexposed in 1984 & 1985, they had All-Star Wrestling and Championship Wrestling in syndication, All-American Wrestling, Tuesday Night Titans, House Shows(1984), and Prime Time Wrestling(1985) on USA and World Championship Wrestling on WTBS. If you had access to MSG Network, Prism or NESN you could watch house shows from MSG, the Spectrum and Boston Garden.  

Edited November 18, 2019 by happjack

[Log]

On 11/17/2019 at 9:28 PM, happjack said:

The WWF was pretty overexposed in 1984 & 1985, they had All-Star Wrestling and Championship Wrestling in syndication, All-American Wrestling, Tuesday Night Titans, House Shows(1984), and Prime Time Wrestling(1985) on USA and World Championship Wrestling on WTBS. If you had access to MSG Network, Prism or NESN you could watch house shows from MSG, the Spectrum and Boston Garden.  

But remember that, in many areas, you didn't have access to all of those shows.  So, it's not like today's overexposure.  Also, many of those shows were of little to no consequence.  You could miss them, and not really be missing anything.  

[Happ Hazzard]

4 hours ago, Log said:

 Also, many of those shows were of little to no consequence.  You could miss them, and not really be missing anything.  

No different to today. 

At least the shows back then sometimes featured new wrestlers coming into the WWF. And the angles at least were memorable.

[Mister TV]

On 11/19/2019 at 11:14 AM, Log said:

But remember that, in many areas, you didn't have access to all of those shows.  So, it's not like today's overexposure.  Also, many of those shows were of little to no consequence.  You could miss them, and not really be missing anything.  

If you had cable or a big dish you most likely had access to the USA and WTBS shows along with both syndicated shows from your local stations, if you didn't have cable and lived in a decent sized market you got both syndicated shows. The WWF was really overexposed if you had cable or a dish but the percentage of homes with cable in 1984 is still kind of low but growing every month. The WWE pushed myth that cable was the driving force of expansion is bit of revision on their part, syndication is the biggest factor tv wise when it came to the national expansion. 

 

[SorceressKnight]

On 11/19/2019 at 3:59 PM, Happ Hazzard said:

No different to today. 

At least the shows back then sometimes featured new wrestlers coming into the WWF. And the angles at least were memorable.

It was a little different to today, because at least in modern times, you get new product. Yeah, it might be "PPV match between Roman Reigns and Baron Corbin, then a rematch of the PPV match on Smackdown, then the week after they're on opposite sides in a tag match with another PPV match, then another Roman/Corbin match"...but at least all four of those matches were different matches.

By contrast, Black Saturday's whole problem (and the related What If? of "what if Vince actually gave Turner a studio show in Atlanta?") was that most of the shows back then were just "make one TV taping, mix up the order of the matches a bit, put different commentators on, then sell it to every different network."