Wrestling What Ifs

[Jenalysis]

On 7/5/2017 at 10:06 PM, twiztor said:

it may have been 15 minutes they cut, but no way does a midcard match go that long. 8-9 mins, tops. even that probably includes entrances

Sometimes with Nitro you did get those long midcard matches if it was two world-class folks.  This was pre-Russo era.

 

[Victator]

3 hours ago, Horton Hears a Wooo!!! said:

Here's something to chew on: what if Vince had turned Hogan heel?  I'm not really a mark for Hogan, but I love the Hollywood heel turn and give Hogan his props for throwing himself into it so completely.  I think I'd mark for a 90's WWE heel turn, either at WrestleMania IX or slot Hogan into Sgl. Slaughter's heel Iraqi sympathizer character.

Either scenario could have been huge.  I kinda like the visual of Hogan running out during the Yokozuna-Bret match, costing Bret the match (instead of the Fuji interference) them hoisting the Japanese flag.  That could have been huge.

It could also work with Hogan in the Slaughter role aligning with one of his greatest enemies (Iron Sheik) and turning on the USA.  Not really sure I'd like this as much.  Slaughter's over-the-top antics and his great heel sneer are one of my favorite things from early 90's wWF.

If Hogan had turned heel in WWF, does it go over as well as Hollywood Hogan did five years later?  What happens to WCW if he does go heel?  Does he even go to WCW?  Does the nWo angle get over as well or does it seem like a retread of what Vince had done with Hogan?  Is Hogan even the surprise at Bash at the Beach or does that end up being Sting?

Hogan on the Jericho show spoke of turning heel in 1990. That he put a lot of thought into what he could do to turn on Warrior and get heat. I think he talked about it on the Flair show as well. 

I don't think he would do any traitor to America deal that could hurt his future earnings as a good guy. Honestly a part of me thinks Vince wanted to hurt Sarge long term. 

[The Nature Boy]

I'm intrigued by the idea of Hogan doing the Hollywood Hogan heel turn in 1993 and feuding with Bret. Hogan as the movie star, prima donna, cowardly heel against Bret Hart, a guy who represents the opposite of that could've been more intriguing TV than what we actually got in 1993. Bring in someone like Jim Cornette as Hogan's "agent" and you have a heat magnet. I'd also have Yokozuna function as Hogan's bodyguard. 

Here's what I would do: 

I'd have Bret retain at WrestleMania IX, Hogan do the heel turn sometime around King of the Ring, win the belt at SummerSlam, and hold it through WrestleMania X where Bret heroically wins it back. You can still do "Made in the USA" Lex Luger as a placeholder feud for Hogan after SummerSlam. I would also still do the USS Intrepid bodyslam angle. 

Owen's turn still happens as well but is caused by Cornette and Hogan getting to him and convincing him that Bret is a spotlight hog who has denied Owen his rightful opportunity to shine. Owen goes over Luger at Mania and feuds with Bret afterwards. 

What happens to Hogan after WrestleMania X is a mystery to me. Hogan in the 90s would insist on still being in the main event scene, which undercuts the New Generation and Bret, in particular. 

 

 

[Cristobal]

Does the Hogan heel turn work nearly as well if he doesn't stay the red-and-yellow babyface long past that gimmick's sell-by date?

[Spritenaut 32]

18 minutes ago, Cristobal said:

Does the Hogan heel turn work nearly as well if he doesn't stay the red-and-yellow babyface long past that gimmick's sell-by date?

Probably not.  As much as I would have liked to see a WWF heel turn from Hogan, I think if Hogan had turned babyface earlier, he would have half-assed it and waited for his by-popular-demand babyface turn.  WCW flirted with a "tweener turn" a few years before during Hogan's feud with the Dungeon of Doom.  Hogan started wearing black and became a darker version of his character.  That version of the character went away rather quickly, allegedly because Hogan didn't like doing it (which kinda shows in his promo work at the time).  Hollywood Hogan doesn't work if Hogan doesn't go so far over the top into it and half-hearted heel turns by popular characters usually don't last long or work all that well (Austin during the Two-Man Power Trip, which saw Austin basically play the same character and cut the same promos on babyfaces instead of heels.  Main Event Mafia Sting is another example. My lasting memory of that is Sting kinda standing off in the corner not doing much while the MEM beat down some babyfaces).

Also, quite probably WCW doesn't risk turning Hogan heel if he's still getting the kinda babyface reactions and merch sales he got just a few years earlier.

[Victator]

When the Dungeon shaved Hogan's mustache he snapped. 

The face Hogan in black bit was about six months before he actually turned heel.  I had figured it was a test run at the time. 

[FluffSnackwell]

14 hours ago, Cristobal said:

Does the Hogan heel turn work nearly as well if he doesn't stay the red-and-yellow babyface long past that gimmick's sell-by date?

Absolutely not. If they tried to pull something like that out of the wild blue yonder in the WWF around WrestleMania X, it reeks of desperation. More than that, it's just too random and bizarre to see Hogan suddenly cowering to a guy in Bret who was still very much a transitional Champion at that point. Hollywood Hogan definitely worked to max effect because it was him getting legitimately pissy that his act had finally gotten stale; "even though these so-called fans were just the Podunk redneck trash that liked WCW; not the fans of the dominant product up North." [paraphrasing] That was always the nicest touch; Hogan not being convinced his red and yellow act was the problem but rather it was simply lost on the bumpkins how fortunate they were that he ever joined their rinky dink wrasslin outfit in the first place.

How's this for a crazy alternate timeline? Hogan actually does stay away from wrestling for a few more years (during his mid-nineties sabbatical) eventually returning to the WWF and finding himself Champion again just as Stone Cold is starting to take off. Then we get Austin winning his first title off Hogan at WrestleMania XIV and Hogan turning Hollywood as Vince's corporate Champion.

[Victator]

If he turned heel in 1994, he would have been a different character. I always thought he cowered too much in the WCW heel run. I mean he was still a really big man and should not be running from guys like Flair and Piper. It was easier with Giant and Luger

The Flair match at the August 96 Clash was interesting as they both try to figure out their new roles. I did like the rare Dark Hulk Up which gave Hogan a brief advantage before wearing off. 

[cwoy2j]

22 hours ago, Victator said:

When the Dungeon shaved Hogan's mustache he snapped. 

The face Hogan in black bit was about six months before he actually turned heel.  I had figured it was a test run at the time. 

Schiavone talked about that on his podcast. He said it wasn't. Basically nobody in WCW was thinking that far ahead. It was just a random angle.

[Victator]

22 minutes ago, cwoy2j said:

Schiavone talked about that on his podcast. He said it wasn't. Basically nobody in WCW was thinking that far ahead. It was just a random angle.

I think I like Hogan losing his shit at his mustache being shaved and turned into a Chinese man. 
 

[GuerrillaMonsoon]

I think one of the biggest aspects of Hogan's heel turn was that whatever mainstream coverage that came about from it, was largely generated from mainstream media being shocked that a) there was another big wrestling organization in North America, b) Ted Turner owned them and c) Hogan was working for them/not for Vince, which gave it slightly more credibility than what the 90s perception of Vince McMahon and his circus, post sex and steroid scandals. By that happening, more people who'd tuned out tuned back in because of the "Huh?" factor.

Don't think you get that same sort of buy-in if he turns heel in the WWF because of that same-sameness to it.

[GuerrillaMonsoon]

Actually, nah, fuck it, I'm all in on Japanese Sympathizer Heel Hogan, if not for the coke fueled promos taking responsibility for Pearl Harbor (, jack), but the inevitable rebooking of Rumble 94 where Hogan loses to Bret, and then does the honourable thing by committing seppuku on live PPV and rises into Hulkster Heaven.

[The Nature Boy]

I can buy a Hogan heel turn in 1993 working, especially if Hogan plays the "I can't believe the kids are into this!" angle with regards to smaller guys like Bret and Shawn getting over. Of course, Hogan would insist on going over them and proving that the big muscled guys ARE actually better, which would kill the heat of everyone involved. 

[Hamhock]

'93 Hogan was fairly scrawny; I don't think he'd be the "big guy" to spotlight then.

[GuerrillaMonsoon]

1 hour ago, The Nature Boy said:

I can buy a Hogan heel turn in 1993 working, especially if Hogan plays the "I can't believe the kids are into this!" angle with regards to smaller guys like Bret and Shawn getting over. Of course, Hogan would insist on going over them and proving that the big muscled guys ARE actually better, which would kill the heat of everyone involved. 

Given the steroid trial was still well under way at the time, and Vince going to jail probably more likely than not, that would have been ballsy.

[sydneybrown]

3 hours ago, Hamhock said:

'93 Hogan was fairly scrawny; I don't think he'd be the "big guy" to spotlight then.

That kind of attitude is why so many wrestlers are dead.

[Victator]

In the Observers at the time, it was reported Hogan was offended at even being asked to lose to Bret. Referring to him as a midget. 

Six years later he is losing to Kidman on PPV. 

[FluffSnackwell]

This reminds of a similar conversation on another board where somebody chimed in that "of course, Hogan scoffed, it already blew up in his face once passing the torch to Warrior and Bret was even smaller than him." You know, like fucking Glenn Danzig could've been the impostor Ultimate Warrior they trotted out any time they did the Meadowlands and nobody would've noticed the difference because of Jim Hellwig's diminutive stature. I mean, I'm sure even as early as 1990, Hogan was probably already carrying around noticeably less muscle mass than he was three years earlier against Andre.

None of this changes how clunky it would've been Hogan putting over Hart. Was Tunney still an on-air authority figure at that point? Maybe Bret beats Hogan for the title with one of those artsy fartsy roll-ups he beat Piper with at WrestleMania VIII, and then Hogan goes absolutely apeshit into a full-blown rage postmatch which is bad enough to injure Hart and causes Hogan to get suspended indefinitely; long enough for him to simply go away and eventually sign with WCW making any lingering issue a moot point.

[FluffSnackwell]

4 hours ago, Victator said:

In the Observers at the time, it was reported Hogan was offended at even being asked to lose to Bret. Referring to him as a midget. 

Six years later he is losing to Kidman on PPV. 

How wild would've it been for Taz to show up on a random Nitro and choke out Hogan to end one of his long-winded self congratulatory Hollywood promos? Was Taz a guy that jackass Russo could've gotten behind or would he have turned him into an actual oompa loompa faster than you can say "That Seventies Guy" Mike Awesome? 

[Victator]

I actually think Hogan was bigger in 90 than he was in 87. He was kinda reaching critical mass. Seriously the steroid scandal might have added years to his life.

6 minutes ago, FluffSnackwell said:

Was Taz a guy that jackass Russo could've gotten behind or would he have turned him into an actual oompa loompa faster than you can say "That Seventies Guy" Mike Awesome? 

you know the answer.

[FluffSnackwell]

Hogan's size may not have diminished by WrestleMania VI but it's definitely hard to imagine he was bigger than that period right around the first WrestleMania where he and Mr. T were guests on Saturday Night Live and Richard Belzer's show. For one thing, his head and face had that level of bloating a dude's gourd only exhibits when reaching max levels of 'roid usage. Also it's pretty depressing to consider the shape Hogan still ended up in with orange walrus hip dysplasia even after easing off the vitamins during the latter half of his career.

[Hamhock]

8 hours ago, sydneybrown said:

That kind of attitude is why so many wrestlers are dead.

Good Lord - no, I'm not advocating that Hogan should have cycled up again, or that anyone should. I was merely responding to the idea that Hogan would be the advocate for bigger wrestlers by pointing out that he had gotten much much smaller in comparison to his former self. Scrawny only in comparison to himself pre-93.

[Wyld Samurai]

3 hours ago, FluffSnackwell said:

Hogan's size may not have diminished by WrestleMania VI but it's definitely hard to imagine he was bigger than that period right around the first WrestleMania where he and Mr. T were guests on Saturday Night Live and Richard Belzer's show. For one thing, his head and face had that level of bloating a dude's gourd only exhibits when reaching max levels of 'roid usage. Also it's pretty depressing to consider the shape Hogan still ended up in with orange walrus hip dysplasia even after easing off the vitamins during the latter half of his career.

I'm fairly certain the hip issues came from the bumps. I doubt steroids would have played thst big of a part. His big move was a leg drop. He probably could have helped save his hip by stocking with the Axe Bomber stateside.

[Nice Guy Eddie]

I recently watched Hogan vs. Muta from 1993. Hogan is WWF champion at the time and Jimmy Hart is in his corner. I'm not going to spoil the outcome. Most of you here can figure it out. Hogan had his working shoes on for this one. He goes for a drop toe hold early in the match. He hits an enziguri, throws in the AXE BOMBAHHHHH!!!! Muta looked great, as to be expected from '93 Muta. Yes, Hogan does get misted. It's fun watching Japan Hogan compared to US Hogan.

If Hogan works like he did in Japan, does his face act get as stale as it did come 1992?

[Guest Stefanie Without Stefanie]

I think it would, if his character was still the same. Hogan lost me as a kid not because of his in-ring, but because his character was fairly unlikable to me after the Savage angle.