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  • 2 weeks later...

Sure this has been talked about but was wondering what happens if Titan doesn't decides to phase out Flair in late '92 and how that affects Hogan's move to WCW? 

As has been noted, Flair's friendship with Hulk helped with the initial pitch to Hulk in '94 and, worst case, he was coming in just to the run with Flair. Hard to imagine him coming to WCW to work with Vader or Rude, or, even a turned Stinger. 

By this thinking, if Flair decides to stay on with the WWF as a midcard job guy and never goes back to WCW a lot of wrestling history changes. 

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I thought Flair had asked McMahon to let him out of his deal so he could go back to WCW, because of the travel schedule. Either way, I think Flair is back in WCW by 1994 to help with the pitch to Hogan.

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2 minutes ago, Dewar said:

I thought Flair had asked McMahon to let him out of his deal so he could go back to WCW, because of the travel schedule. Either way, I think Flair is back in WCW by 1994 to help with the pitch to Hogan.

The story is that when he signed, Vince made a handshake deal with him that he'd release Flair if he ever thought that he wasn't being used as high up on the card as he wanted to be used. Something like that.

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It's strange in retrospect that they had no plans for Ric at the top of the card when they were losing Hogan and their relationship with Warrior was so tempestuous. But they also didn't have much use for Savage by that point either. 

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Moving into 93 they had Luger, Bret, Yoko. Taker. Perfect. They weren't losing Hogan at that point. They were just about to get him back. They had just gotten Lawler and were using him fairly close to the top of the card too. It's Bulldog and Warrior that they had just lost.

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'93 is fascinating, in particular Wrestlemania IX. It's rightfully labeled the worst Mania of all-time, yet could have been amazing with some simple tweaks. To wit: 

- Savage wins the Rumble, faces Bret in the main and puts him over. 

- Yokozuna wrestles Hulk to establish Yoko as the monster heel. 

- Razor vs. Perfect; seeds were planted with the two on opposite sides in the '92 Survivor Series tag match. OR! 

- Perfect vs. Flair. They did this match two months earlier on Raw; save the blow-off for Mania and Ric puts Perfect over on the way out. 

- Have the awesome Shawn-Marty IC match that went down on Raw the next month at Mania. 

- Replace Giant Gonzalez with Bam Bam Bigelow to face the Undertaker. The two wrestled at...Survivor Series, I believe. Hold off on doing that match until Mania instead. 

 

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That sounds pretty damn good to me. 

Oddly enough, I'd prefer Razor/Perfect instead of your Flair match. 

Or maybe Shawn/Perfect. When was that street brawl? After 'Mania? 

Marty was already fired right after the Rumble, so he and HBK couldn't have happened with your tweak. 

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I get the distinct impression the McMahon was seriously non-plussed with Flair throughout that first run and didn't live up to his expectations

PS that WM IX line-up would have been fantastic

PPS Crush was super-over when he came in, if they'd strapped the rocket to him he'd have been a legit main-eventer but I guess that would have blown up in WWF's face over his steroid conviction that came down the line

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On 4/17/2017 at 4:21 PM, Victator said:

That came from Kamala not Hogan. He said Jay Strongbow is the one who killed it. 

Hogan was the one who smartened Kamala up about how little money he was making. He told Kamala "I got my money you need to get yours."

People are also confusing what Hogan became with what he became after the Warrior loss. In the first title run he was willing to put heels over strong. He would drop matches by count out to guys like Savage, Studd, Bundy and Jesse Ventura. 

He's said since that he wanted to put Piper over for the title, but was concerned Piper would be unwilling to lose it back, Which admittedly sounds like Piper.

 

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4 hours ago, Raziel403 said:

I forget, did we ever do What If Magnum didn't get into the car accident?

Magnum would have been THE babyface...Windham's push to upper card is affected...and the biggest casualty is Sting who goes to New York. Luger stays heel.

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Oh, I think Magnum goes to NY and takes the reigns from Hogan. Unless Crockett just throws the entire golden airplane at him. 

I think a heel Windham would have made a great main event level feud for Magnum over the World Heavyweight Championship. 

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I honestly don't see Magnum as someone would end up being THE guy for longer than a short amount of time. I think he wins the title at Starrcade but when he loses it he settles into the role Barry Windham had as face after his Flair run ended.

I see the timeline playing out as follows:

86 - Magnum wins the belt

87 - Flair regains

88 - after being an upper midcard face gatekeeper, he is the one that turns on Dusty instead of Windham and maybe has an awesome run in the Horsemen once he finally agrees to dress the part like Ric was telling him all those years.

89 - leaves to the WWF run after Dusty and "Dustys guys" fall out of favor with Jim Here. Has a credible midcard face run there but never the top guy, stays around the Tito Santana level.

91 - either returns to WCW in the tag team specialist/gatekeeper role that Steamboat had during this time period, or goes to Smoky Mountain to be the top face there, which I think he would have done really well.

96 - alright I could see him kicking ass here and having a late career resurgence as the "ass kicking grizzled vet/man of the people" against the nWo similar to DDP during this time period, whether he had stayed WCW the entire 90s or bounced around between WCW and Smoky Mountain (though I could see him having some fun brawls in ECW during that time period too).

And then he probably retires with the end of WCW.

 

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I think Magnum and Flair trade the belt a couple times and it eventually settles with Magnum. Flair then takes off for New York with Arn and Tully and they have a Horseman run there. Since Flair was a face for a good portion of 1989 anyway, Magnum easily gets plugged into those spots, like feuding with Funk. The Steamboat series doesn't happen, but maybe they run Magnum/Luger for a little while instead. Flair comes back with Arn and Tully, wins the belt back from Magnum, and then things progress mostly the same as they actually did moving on to Sting. Magnum then does the upper card gatekeeper thing for the majority of the rest of his career.

Also, Flair in 1988-89 WWF would have been fun. Maybe there's no Megapowers split, and they pick up a third guy to work with Flair, Arn and Tully for a while after the Megabucks angle wraps up. The belt winds up on Flair for sure here, which Hogan then wins back in late 1989 before Flair goes back. 

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7 hours ago, clintthecrippler said:

I honestly don't see Magnum as someone would end up being THE guy for longer than a short amount of time. I think he wins the title at Starrcade but when he loses it he settles into the role Barry Windham had as face after his Flair run ended.

I see the timeline playing out as follows:

I think there is definitely a lot of romanticizing since we'll never know what Magnum's true potential would have been, but I think that's a pretty good summary of where he could have gone.

I think he wins the title, loses it after a Steamboat-type reign, stays a major player, but then goes to WWF for at best an I-C run.  He could have been Kerry Von Erich without the baggage, and potentially could have taken that slot and had feuds with Curt Hennig and Ted DiBiase.  

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Guest Stefanie Without Stefanie

I was looking at results from Bob Backlund's run as WWF Champion, and there were an awful lot of defenses where Backlund lost due to blood loss and a referee stoppage. It seems strange to me that while you can only win the title by pinfall or submission, you could beat someone so badly that they cannot continue due to blood loss and still not win their title. Was that something that was common back in the 1970s/1980s or was that just a weird WWF thing, like being able to win a cage match by escaping?

EDIT TO ADD: This was in relation to a champion putting over an opponent as strong. Beating the champ to a bloody pulp is pretty strong.

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23 hours ago, clintthecrippler said:

I honestly don't see Magnum as someone would end up being THE guy for longer than a short amount of time. I think he wins the title at Starrcade but when he loses it he settles into the role Barry Windham had as face after his Flair run ended.

I see the timeline playing out as follows:

86 - Magnum wins the belt

87 - Flair regains

88 - after being an upper midcard face gatekeeper, he is the one that turns on Dusty instead of Windham and maybe has an awesome run in the Horsemen once he finally agrees to dress the part like Ric was telling him all those years.

89 - leaves to the WWF run after Dusty and "Dustys guys" fall out of favor with Jim Here. Has a credible midcard face run there but never the top guy, stays around the Tito Santana level.

91 - either returns to WCW in the tag team specialist/gatekeeper role that Steamboat had during this time period, or goes to Smoky Mountain to be the top face there, which I think he would have done really well.

96 - alright I could see him kicking ass here and having a late career resurgence as the "ass kicking grizzled vet/man of the people" against the nWo similar to DDP during this time period, whether he had stayed WCW the entire 90s or bounced around between WCW and Smoky Mountain (though I could see him having some fun brawls in ECW during that time period too).

And then he probably retires with the end of WCW.

 

Man, Magnum TA holding up tradition and WCW and belly to bellying Hogan probably would have legit blown the roof off the arena in Charlotte.

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17 hours ago, sydneybrown said:

I think there is definitely a lot of romanticizing since we'll never know what Magnum's true potential would have been, but I think that's a pretty good summary of where he could have gone.

I think he wins the title, loses it after a Steamboat-type reign, stays a major player, but then goes to WWF for at best an I-C run.  He could have been Kerry Von Erich without the baggage, and potentially could have taken that slot and had feuds with Curt Hennig and Ted DiBiase.  

I think you guys pretty much nailed it. There is a LOT of romanticizing Magnum after the fact, much of it by people who weren't there and are going by very selective match footage and remarks from people that should know better. I was there, a faithful follower of JCP, who never missed a show. Magnum TA was not all that and a bag of chips, he was a very good upper-card face that could certainly have been an interim champ between Flair reigns, but that's about it. KVE without the baggage is pretty much spot on, lovable babyface that could be perpetually in the IC picture or the guy that gets beat down by the heel stable to inflame the #1 guy. Talk of Magnum replacing Hogan or Flair is just silliness.

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18 hours ago, sydneybrown said:

I think there is definitely a lot of romanticizing since we'll never know what Magnum's true potential would have been, but I think that's a pretty good summary of where he could have gone.

This has been discussed a fair bit on the Kayfabe Memories forums (back when the site had traffic, anyway).  A lot of people think Dusty would have done what Dusty tended to do in the 80's - get himself booked into the main feuds and cool down other babyfaces by pushing them into sideline feuds.  No way to know.  I think Crockett definitely straps the rocket to Magnum's back at some point in the near future.  What happens after that is anyone's guess.

Personally, I don't really have a firm opinion on Magnum.  I kinda think the "Magnum is Kerry Von Erich without the baggage" line of thinking has some merit.  I tend to think Magnum doesn't ever exhibit the "it' factor the degree Hogan and Sting did, so that maybe limits his upward mobility.  On the other hand, I can see Flair making Magnum and Magnum maybe jumping to the WWF and catching fire.  I really have no idea how things would have played out.  Neither scenario would have surprised me.

For the record, I think KVE without the drugs and family tragedies hopefully had a higher ceiling than Magnum.

 

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