Name The Big Men Better Than Mark Henry

[Matt D]

Andre and Earthquake are two guys that I think would be in the running. Earthquake's offense is probably a little bit better (which is saying a lot but he hit stuff so, so well) and he was very good at knowing when to give and when not to, but I think Henry has sort of taken that to another level. Andre was better than almost anyone ever at knowing exactly what to do and exactly when to do it. He could accomplish so much on presence alone and make the tiniest little movement worth so much.

 

That said, it'd be close. 

 

To me, the big questions are Ladd and Blackwell I guess.

 

Dylan, what're your thoughts on the Mayweather match with Big Show? Did you ever write that up? 

[The Natural]

I'd take The Big Show over Mark Henry with the match against Ric Flair in ECW (man, that was surreal), against Floyd Mayweather at WrestleMania XXIV, the series with The Undertaker in 2008 is my favourite feud The Big Show's had, JeriShow and the matches with Daniel Bryan in 2011-2012. Both Big Show and Mark Henry are great on promos, prefer Show as a face and a heel.

[JRGoldman]

When I read the title, my first thought was Gordy, but I think it's been pretty established that he doesn't count for the purposes of this discussion. Although I feel as though Gordy could've easily and believably had a program with Cena where there was some question about his ability to be lifted. 

 

I don't think you can make any argument that he is "better" than Henry, but I'll throw out Kamala. Really agile for a guy his size for most of his career, and did really awesome character work in the ring. Did subtle things really well and was able to get a lot more sympathy as a face than many other super heavies. 

 

I don't think I've seen enough of his prime (I don't even know if a lot of it is tape) but has anyone mentioned Blackjack Mulligan? Supposedly really good and is 350+ as well as very tall. 

[Matt D]

Mulligan is not so good.

 

There's a Mulligan vs Blackwell match on the 1978 MACW Year In Review show but I can't find it on youtube anymore. That's well worth watching because it's one of the better Mulligan matches I've seen and one of the earliest Blackwell ones I've seen but even there Mulligan is just so so. You want him to turn it up when he's supposed to and he just doesn't.

[Big Z]

Bam Bam was awesome in Memphis and Japan, but a lot of that has to be attributed to working with Lawler and teaming with Vader against teams like the Steiners. He was not as consistent as Henry from 2005 on, though their very best matches are likely comparable. Blackwell is an interesting case, and definitely a better face then Henry, but again I think I'd prefer Henry overall.

[piranesi]

His early stuff was mostly 3-minute Russo specials where still he rarely had enough movez to finish without having used a chinlock, so not really.  He was mostly working in the shitty Attitude midcard without good opponents, too.  

 

I'd argue for Andre > Henry.  Much more expressive face, a better promo even with his accent (that's the only time that French ever sounded menacing), worked better around larger limitations, covered better for his occasionally flimsy-looking offense (Henry all too often looks like he's afraid he's gonna break his opponent), and for my money a better seller as well.  Andre had some of the best timing for psychology and pacing that I've ever seen anyone have, he knew EXAXTLY when to do what he needed to do in order to make the crowd go fuckin' ballistic.  

 

This is crazy-insane.  Andre could hardly walk.  His selling consisted of laying down against the ropes while whatever menagerie of fools did the actual match.  His face mostly expressed exhaustion because he was always exhausted.  Everything post, like 88 or so is just kind of heart-breaking to watch.  He was a great guy and an amazing spectacle.  But Henry is a million worlds better as a worker.

 

Hansen, and the likes of Gordy for that matter don't count here. Clearly we're looking at guys closer to 400 than 300. Although he slimmed down later on does Ray Traylor count in this discussion? And I will echo the Bam Bam disappointment. Other than RVD, Tazz and Bret are there any really good Bam Bam singles matches? Has there ever been a guy with his size, look and athleticism to disappoint so consistently? Plus Studd was a childhood favourite of mine but I'm shocked to see anyone call him good. Effective yes but good?

 

Bossman in his 1991 shape would have been so awesome today.  Dude worked fast and did some legit surprising thing in every match. Hugely unerrrated.  Has anyone's cartoonish costume ever looke more awesome than Bossman with his shirt popped open and that strap around his shoulder?

 

 

Yoko still had really good timing at his heaviest. One Man Gang is really underrated and so is Earthquake, 

 

Earthquake was so great.  He could do all the squash-a-dude moves that Yoko could do, but he could also run around and set them up and transition into them.

 

So was Gang/Akeem.  Was Akeem the first of Vince's dancing fat dudes?

[JRGoldman]

The best thing about this thread is that it has made me think about how awesome Mark Henry would've been in The Princess Bride. 

[Ace]

I'd take The Big Show over Mark Henry with the match against Ric Flair in ECW (man, that was surreal), against Floyd Mayweather at WrestleMania XXIV, the series with The Undertaker in 2008 is my favourite feud The Big Show's had, JeriShow and the matches with Daniel Bryan in 2011-2012. Both Big Show and Mark Henry are great on promos, prefer Show as a face and a heel.

 

I'm still of the opinion that Show is the best Giant there ever has been.

[Matt D]

I have to disagree about old Andre. Yes, it was sad to see how immobile he was, but I think he had such amazing timing and sense of how to do things that would matter. There was no wasted motion because there couldn't be. He was amazing, even then. watch the december MSG Colossal Connection vs Demolition match and see what he does with so little physical ability. 

[piranesi]

I think you have to do a little extra work as a viewer to get past Andre's limitations.  You have to pretend not to see what you're seeing even more than normal.  Like you have to be "he's caught in the ropew again!  Man, is he dumb!" rather than "It's 30 seconds in and he won't be able to leave the ropes because he can't lift his own weight."

 

You also have to let that initial thrill from the staredown/test-of-strength/stalling sequence really sink in and feel epic.

[Matt D]

I don't think the crowds had any problem. Some of that was off put by A) the fact he was Andre and a force of nature and the fact that people sold for him so well and so lovingly. A touch from Andre would cause them to go flying and this was done consistently. 

 

And he knew how to use all of these tricks and all of the status he'd built up. 

[FLIK]

Brazo De Plata works large sections around dueling bodyslams (although he is super short vis a vis Hogan.

 

If he counts then Super Porky for sure

 

And well Abby has had a five plus decade career of not being slammed.

 

 

sure did love taking the monke flip though

 

I'd put Abby ahead of Henry too

Of those allready mentioned Vader, Bam Bam, Andre, Big Show, Umaga would be on my list.

 

Guys not mentioned

 

Would peak Cactus Jack be considered monster/fat enough for this discussion?

 

Think Scott Norton is really underrated and compares favorably with Henry.

 

I'd say Giant Bernard's run was better then Henry's

 

Obviously not "big men" but Aja Kong & Bull Nakano were elite lvl workers doing the same style. 

[T.Rex-n-effeckx]

Baba is not a monster.  Fritz seems like a fringy guy, kind of like Hansen or in modern world Luke Gallows.  Abby fits.  Where are the good Moose Cholak matches?  

Baba in the U.S. feels like a monster.

Well 80s Moose Cholak is bad, but yet to see a 60 moose performance that I didn't like.

Looking around youtube it looks like the Chene v Cholak 2/3 falls match is longest thing you can look at. There also appears to be a Cholak v Sweet Daddy Siki (who I think I've only seen at end of career before) that I've never seen before.

[LooseCannon]

For the purposes of this thread I'm talking about guys who would have had matches with Hulk Hogan or John Cena built around whether or not they could be body slammed.

There is no way someone like Gordy should be in the discussion. I think The thread title is misleading people. It's super heavyweights. If Gordy or Hansen are in then you might as well add hogan. Batista, Brock and 500 other guys. We are talking giant fat dudes who do splashes

Would peak Cactus Jack be considered monster/fat enough for this discussion?

[T.Rex-n-effeckx]

His early stuff was mostly 3-minute Russo specials where still he rarely had enough movez to finish without having used a chinlock, so not really.  He was mostly working in the shitty Attitude midcard without good opponents, too.  

.

 

That really isn't accurate.

 

Henry may have had more movez  ( mostly big jumping moves/leap into elbow leaping legdrop, etc) or at least ran through them a lot faster in early period.

 

And in the WWF, it didn't matter how many moves you had...if you were working heel you were required to work a face escapes the chinlock section. The only real exception to that was Helmsley who likes to work a heel overcomes odds/escapes submission section in his matches.

 

 

In fact I think Bam Bam is monumentally overrated.

 

Ehh. His ECW stuff doesn't hold up, but when you watch Nash v HBK and LT v Bam Bam from same PPV, Bam Bam does a better job making LT look credible than HBK does making you believe in trained wrestler Nash. I also don't know who else could have pulled off Bam Bam v Scott Norton which feels like the match that Norton was able to live off of for the rest of his career.

[T.Rex-n-effeckx]

If he counts then Super Porky for sure

 

 

Brazo de Plata is Super Porky.

[BalancingAct]

Don Leo Jonathan was often hand picked by Andre for matches.  He was (and still is) a big, big man and was quite the act back in his day.

[Charlie M.]

Gary Albright?

[Jrag]

Ok.  So I already put this in the catch-all thread, but it needs to be in here.  Incredible interview covering everything and everyone from Owen to Cesaro.  He talks about studying Bam Bam and Vader, driving Yokozuna around, hanging up on Vince, etc etc etc. 

 

 

At around the 57 minute mark he mentions that he wants to be known as one of the 10 best big men of all time.  I wish he could see us throwing his name around in the top 5.

[Ellsworth Toohey]

Vader

Crusher Blackwell

One Man Gang in Mid-South/UWF

King Kong Bundy in Mid-South

Big Bubba Rogers in Jim Crockett

[Ellsworth Toohey]

Big Daddy?

[Tromatagon]

Bossman period. So what if he lost weight, it's still the same dude

[Kuetsar]

Big Daddy?

Crabtree or  Mable?  Either way probably no. . .And no more blasphemy like replacing Andre in Princess bride, the best performance by a wrestler in a movie EVER. .

[DylanWaco]

Glad someone mentioned Yoko.  I'm a huge fan of his.  Very interesting and awesome offensive wrestler who would use his girth as a weapon, but also surprise you with speed or execution on certain things.  Excellent weeble wobble seller and when he would take a big bump, like his tumble through the ropes signature it always felt like a massive deal.  I can't rate him above Henry, but I would not be averse to someone arguing him in the six or seven slot of a top ten.

 

On Show v. Henry, I think it is really tough.  I am a big fan of both guys, but there is no question I like Henry better.  Both guys have done tons in their career from being comedy fodder, to being big stars working on top of the cards.  In theory both guys should have been better protected.  I think they were each good at reestablishing themselves as monsters/killers when the time called for it, but despite having a size advantage and the great knockout punch finish, I don't know that monster Show has ever felt quite as scary/effect as monster Henry at his absolute best.  

 

In terms of best matches, best runs and consistency, et. I think you could make a case either way. People can point to Show in 2008 and say "fuck he was great" what with the Mayweather match and the Taker series among other things, but when I watched lots of 08 ECW a couple of years ago my thought was that Henry's run was every bit as good, albeit without the marquee Mania match.  Henry's best stuff is kine of broken up as 03, 06, 08 and 2011 feel like clear peaks.  Not to say he was bad in between but, they don't stand out as much partially because of the way he was booked.  I'm not even sure what I would say the top five-ten matches from either guy are, but I don't get the feeling I would think the gap was all that large either way.  Over the long scope of the career it's possible Show may be slightly more consistent, but I haven't watched WCW era Show in years, and I tend to think green Henry was decent if nothing else.  

 

Mechanically I think it's closer than some might think.  Show probably has a slightly more diverse offense, though I'm not positive that is true if you are tracking over the course of their careers.  Show's ring motion is probably better and the speed at which he takes his bigger bumps is something to behold, but I actually think Henry is a crazily great bumper, particularly at making middling/weak shots look incredibly impactful.  Selling wise and building a match I think they are both excellent at their best.  Show does have multiple finishers which is something I am a big fan of, particularly in modern WWE setting.  I also think on average Show's strikes/big shots look better.  I would take Henry over Show on things like facial expressions, trash talking (no shit) and body language.  Both are great at drilling guys with cut off spots, though I think I prefer Henry by a hair there to.

 

If pressed to pick I'd probably take Henry, largely because on the visceral level I have a much stronger connection to him.  I could probably be convinced I'm wrong thought, but someone would have to make the case

[Clayton Jones]

This is crazy-insane.  Andre could hardly walk.  His selling consisted of laying down against the ropes while whatever menagerie of fools did the actual match.  His face mostly expressed exhaustion because he was always exhausted.  Everything post, like 88 or so is just kind of heart-breaking to watch.  He was a great guy and an amazing spectacle.  But Henry is a million worlds better as a worker.

You are just talking about the end of his career, right? Even in the early 80s those criticisms aren't even close to accurate. And he'd already been wrestling for a decade.