30 For 30

[Gonzo]

The 30 for 30 on the EXXX EFFF ELLL starts in about five minutes here. Hope it's a good one.

[hammerva]

While most of the arguments he is making is correct, Bob Costas can't be more of a douche bag on this.   

Completely forgot about Vince telling the cheerleaders that should date the players.   Yeah probably why most of them were mostly strippers or dancers

Was funny that maybe the best game in XFL history was also the game that kind of destroyed the league because of the power delay and then the double overtime game caused massive hysteria on if Saturday Night Live would come on close to the starting time

Ah yes the Rusty Tillman vs Jessie Ventura angle on a football field.    

[PetrolCB]

This was pretty good, as usual with 30 For 30. 

[muhammedboehm]

Agree it was good...but I'm not sure if there was any new information in it. Other then Vince admitting he was wrong about something at the end.

[odessasteps]

 

[Spritenaut 32]

As someone who wasn't overly familiar with the XFL story going in, I found it fascinating.  Tacky, but fascinating.  I didn't think Costa was a douche, though he clearly enjoyed bagging on the XFL and saying "I told you so.".  The announcer Vince reassigned after the first game seemed to enjoy telling stories too.  

I thought the doc highlighted why Vince hasn't had mainstream success in other areas.  He doesn't understand the mainstream.   Most of his innovations seemed designed to make the game less safe for players - which is fine, if you don't care about players.  The fair catch rule is largely about protecting star special teams guys from being murdered every time a punter gets good hang time.  The scramble for the ball instead of the coin flip sounds good until the injuries start piling up.

The other thing is that it seemingly never occurred to Vince that the public would want good football.  Fielding teams entirely of guys who couldn't make it in/to the NFL and giving them one month to practice together is probably not going to produce good football.  Vince applied his wrestling sensibility to football, which is: you don't have to be good at the actual wrestling so long as you can talk, or you have a great physique, or people like the gimmick I give you.  Vince just assumed he'd get the product over some other way if the games were bad and he was very wrong about that.

Did I misunderstand, or did Vince kinda say he'd have liked to beat Costas up during the infamous interview, but couldn't because Costas was "small" (in Vince's mind, at least)?  Holy crap.

[EVA]

Costas actually is quite diminutive.

[Wyld Samurai]

I bet the XFL could have been a better quality of football if they adopted more a college game. All the guys that came from your non conventional NFL offenses probably could have produced quite well running the triple option as a pro in in the XFL.

[Elsalvajeloco]

18 hours ago, Horton Hears a Wooo!!! said:

As someone who wasn't overly familiar with the XFL story going in, I found it fascinating.  Tacky, but fascinating.  I didn't think Costa was a douche, though he clearly enjoyed bagging on the XFL and saying "I told you so.".  The announcer Vince reassigned after the first game seemed to enjoy telling stories too.  

I thought the doc highlighted why Vince hasn't had mainstream success in other areas.  He doesn't understand the mainstream.   Most of his innovations seemed designed to make the game less safe for players - which is fine, if you don't care about players.  The fair catch rule is largely about protecting star special teams guys from being murdered every time a punter gets good hang time.  The scramble for the ball instead of the coin flip sounds good until the injuries start piling up.

The other thing is that it seemingly never occurred to Vince that the public would want good football.  Fielding teams entirely of guys who couldn't make it in/to the NFL and giving them one month to practice together is probably not going to produce good football.  Vince applied his wrestling sensibility to football, which is: you don't have to be good at the actual wrestling so long as you can talk, or you have a great physique, or people like the gimmick I give you.  Vince just assumed he'd get the product over some other way if the games were bad and he was very wrong about that.

Did I misunderstand, or did Vince kinda say he'd have liked to beat Costas up during the infamous interview, but couldn't because Costas was "small" (in Vince's mind, at least)?  Holy crap.

Looking at the last regular season for the NFL, you can clearly get away with having bad football (even if it means sagging ratings). You know what separates bad football in the XFL and the NFL? Tradition. Even if the XFL had quality players, who was going to be devoted watching those teams week in and week out? It didn't matter if Vince was right or not about football being pussified. If you've been watching that same football with friends and family for several years, the only thing that would get you hooked on the alternative is if you and everyone close to you swore off watching the NFL entirely. Who in that time period was going to do that? The NFL was getting bigger and bigger. If this was a WWE/UFC scenario in the mid 2000s where the UFC caught the WWE in a down period (well at least compared to 1998-2001), then you could say the XFL could've been a viable thing. For Vince, I am not surprised he fell into this trap. However, Dick Ebersol not looking at the signs is a bit perplexing. For example, in the doc, the NFL asking for $500 million in rights fees. Now if the NFL didn't even receive anywhere close to that number, then you can argue it would be the right time for another league. However, the NFL got a ton of money from Fox and CBS. The networks aren't giving away free money so at some point it's extremely justified. If I'm Ebersol, I am telling Vince that if he can get his games to work consistently on a smaller network (TNN?) for the first season, then I might consider having a few games on NBC for the next season. The thought of the XFL being on NBC from the jump is mindblowing in hindsight even knowing Vince and Dick had a 15+ year relationship at the time.

[EdA]

3 hours ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Looking at the last regular season for the NFL, you can clearly get away with having bad football (even if it means sagging ratings). You know what separates bad football in the XFL and the NFL? Tradition. Even if the XFL had quality players, who was going to be devoted watching those teams week in and week out? It didn't matter if Vince was right or not about football being pussified. If you've been watching that same football with friends and family for several years, the only thing that would get you hooked on the alternative is if you and everyone close to you swore off watching the NFL entirely. Who in that time period was going to do that? The NFL was getting bigger and bigger. If this was a WWE/UFC scenario in the mid 2000s where the UFC caught the WWE in a down period (well at least compared to 1998-2001), then you could say the XFL could've been a viable thing. For Vince, I am not surprised he fell into this trap. However, Dick Ebersol not looking at the signs is a bit perplexing. For example, in the doc, the NFL asking for $500 million in rights fees. Now if the NFL didn't even receive anywhere close to that number, then you can argue it would be the right time for another league. However, the NFL got a ton of money from Fox and CBS. The networks aren't giving away free money so at some point it's extremely justified. If I'm Ebersol, I am telling Vince that if he can get his games to work consistently on a smaller network (TNN?) for the first season, then I might considering having a few games on NBC for the next season. The thought of the XFL being on NBC from the jump is mindblowing in hindsight even knowing Vince and Dick had a 15+ year relationship at the time.

True.  Though, in fairness, the USFL was on ABC and ESPN from the get-go.  ESPN was not a huge deal in the early-to-mid 80's but being on ABC was major in an era when cable was not in every home.  Then again, the USFL was not selling itself as a gimmick and was signing top college players and getting some legit NFL talent to jump.  Completely different scenario, of course.

The selling point for both the USFL AND XFL (even the failure of the Arena League on NBC) was football during non-football season.  Networks saw the numbers the NFL gets and thought football is the sell.  But it's the NFL (and to a lesser extent) NCAA brand that sells football.  And like you said, the NFL's main selling point is tradition.  You follow the NFL's and NCAA's laundry.  Introducing and selling new laundry is tough.

And introducing new laundry with washouts, never-were's and questionable gimmicks RAN BY A FAKE SPORT MASTERMIND!!! was not going to make the league anything more than a curiosity at best.  And it was...for a week.  When the level of play was as terrible as expected and the gimmicks as cringe-worthy as described (CHEERLEADERS DATING PLAYERS!!!! CAMERA'S IN THE LOCKERROOM!!!!), people quickly chuckled and tuned out.  

But hey, Vince probably blew as much money on Linda's senatorial campaigns AND the WBF.  And it wasn't like NBC had anything else to show on Saturday nights.  So...yeah.

 

 

 

[Elsalvajeloco]

54 minutes ago, EdA said:

True.  Though, in fairness, the USFL was on ABC and ESPN from the get-go.  ESPN was not a huge deal in the early-to-mid 80's but being on ABC was major in an era when cable was not in every home.  Then again, the USFL was not selling itself as a gimmick and was signing top college players and getting some legit NFL talent to jump.  Completely different scenario, of course.

The selling point for both the USFL AND XFL (even the failure of the Arena League on NBC) was football during non-football season.  Networks saw the numbers the NFL gets and thought football is the sell.  But it's the NFL (and to a lesser extent) NCAA brand that sells football.  And like you said, the NFL's main selling point is tradition.  You follow the NFL's and NCAA's laundry.  Introducing and selling new laundry is tough.

And introducing new laundry with washouts, never-were's and questionable gimmicks RAN BY A FAKE SPORT MASTERMIND!!! was not going to make the league anything more than a curiosity at best.  And it was...for a week.  When the level of play was as terrible as expected and the gimmicks as cringe-worthy as described (CHEERLEADERS DATING PLAYERS!!!! CAMERA'S IN THE LOCKERROOM!!!!), people quickly chuckled and tuned out.  

But hey, Vince probably blew as much money on Linda's senatorial campaigns AND the WBF.  And it wasn't like NBC had anything else to show on Saturday nights.  So...yeah.

 

 

 

Yeah, I thought about the USFL and various scenario last night watching it but the periods are drastically different. That's why the idea of having better play or players is a non-starter for me. Realistically (meaning w/o Vince bleeding himself or NBC dry), who could the XFL pick up besides players with various disciplinary issues and backups sitting on the couch as free agents waiting for a call to get a workout?  No Heisman trophy winner grew up wanting to be an XFL player. At no point would they be able to generate enough revenue to pay players comparative to the NFL. God knows there wouldn't be a players association with Vince aboard.

I know everyone (besides Costas obviously) had to use their best "Vince is a genius" act, but Coach was just too obvious. When he said, "Not everything that fails is a failure," I genuinely thought he must be awaiting the pink slip from ESPN at any moment. No one went out of their way to talk up an unmitigated disaster from its very inception like Coach did. He's inventing new standards for ass kissing.

 

[muhammedboehm]

The XFL could have tried the USFL play and gone after college players who might not get a chance in the nfl or wouldn't be draft eligible

[Elsalvajeloco]

5 minutes ago, muhammedboehm said:

The XFL could have tried the USFL play and gone after college players who might not get a chance in the nfl or wouldn't be draft eligible

If the choice is NFL practice squad money w/ a chance to make it to the roster or fresh out of college office entry level job money, guess what my choice will be. Also, why the fuck would I jeopardize a potential NFL career as a running back or QB playing behind an O-line compiled of dudes who worked at Target 3 weeks ago?

[supremebve]

7 hours ago, Wyld Samurai said:

I bet the XFL could have been a better quality of football if they adopted more a college game. All the guys that came from your non conventional NFL offenses probably could have produced quite well running the triple option as a pro in in the XFL.

The option works at every single level except for the NFL.  There is no way that the average XFL defense would have been able to stop a good option quarterback.  Eric Crouch would have destroyed the XFL.

[supremebve]

I'm disappointed that none of you have made fun of He Hate Me having a shag in 2017.

[Elsalvajeloco]

37 minutes ago, supremebve said:

I'm disappointed that none of you have made fun of He Hate Me having a shag in 2017.

Dude, I'm from the middle of Mississippi were folks was bumping the Gap Band when I was growing up. So Rod Smart looking like he just left a Kool & the Gang concert and about to hop in his Ford Escort don't faze me one bit.

[Burgundy LaRue]

52 minutes ago, supremebve said:

I'm disappointed that none of you have made fun of He Hate Me having a shag in 2017.

Without having watched the episode yet, I can probably find three guys within 50 miles of me that sport the same look.  Hell, I know a dude who literally gave up his Jheri curl just a few years ago.

[Wyld Samurai]

3 hours ago, supremebve said:

The option works at every single level except for the NFL.  There is no way that the average XFL defense would have been able to stop a good option quarterback.  Eric Crouch would have destroyed the XFL.

Precisely. The XFL could have been a haven for the college guys from the option, fun n' gun, etc type schools. In theory it would have extended their 15 minutes of fame and given the viewers and ancestors to see what thst kind of athlete can be become being in the same type of system their whole careers. 

[supremebve]

12 hours ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Dude, I'm from the middle of Mississippi were folks was bumping the Gap Band when I was growing up. So Rod Smart looking like he just left a Kool & the Gang concert and about to hop in his Ford Escort don't faze me one bit.

 

12 hours ago, Burgundy LaRue said:

Without having watched the episode yet, I can probably find three guys within 50 miles of me that sport the same look.  Hell, I know a dude who literally gave up his Jheri curl just a few years ago.

I have an uncle who has a life size painting of himself with a jheri curl that greets you as you enter his home.  How dare you guys try to flex your country ass bama muscles on me.  I'm just saying, these people need to be ridiculed or they'll never learn.  Rod Smart is running around looking like 1983, and I'm the first one who thought we should be clowning him.  That is unacceptable. 

[Serious Darius Bagfelt]

On 2/3/2017 at 0:19 PM, Wyld Samurai said:

I bet the XFL could have been a better quality of football if they adopted more a college game. All the guys that came from your non conventional NFL offenses probably could have produced quite well running the triple option as a pro in in the XFL.

Vince's original plan was to buy the entire CFL and move the teams and players to the cities he chose.  So you could have got CFL football on a small field

[hammerva]

On 2/5/2017 at 11:57 PM, Serious Darius Bagfelt said:

Vince's original plan was to buy the entire CFL and move the teams and players to the cities he chose.  So you could have got CFL football on a small field

Was the XFL before or after the CFL tried to Americanize their product with teams in Baltimore, San Antonio, and a couple of other places

[elizium]

After. What a shitshow that was, except for Baltimore, at least they gave a damn. It was such a random collection of cities. Sacremento! Schreveport! Let's put all of the teams as far south of the rest of the league as possible!

[Dewar]

Any city that was good enough for the WLAF was good enough for the CFL. If they could have found a way to expand to the United Kingdom, at least the stadiums might have been large enough to fit an entire CFL field.

[Ryan]

That painting must be worth at least 50 million dollars.

[BrianS81177]

I think the XFL would have had a much different fate if they had waited until March 2002 to launch it. That way they could have had coaches lined up, players signed and given them extensive time to practice. At least the games might have looked a little more professional in terms of the quality of play on the field. If they could have come out of the gate with at least a professional looking product, they might have at least gotten a second season. I get why they had the big rush because "ZOMG WE LOST THE NFL"

Side note: how much money has Vince pissed away over the years? The WBF, WWE New York, XFL, WWE films, Linda's failed senate runs... am I forgetting anything?