30 For 30

[Elsalvajeloco]

 

Yeah this is probably the 2nd best boxing one they have done (thought Leonard vs Duran was better).  Really good history of both guys although I think they were seriously over blowing how little people respected Holyfield.     You can see Tyson in his interview and press conferences that his confidence was completely shot and even he thought he had no chance

 

Holyfield was absolutely considered a shot fighter at the time of his meeting with Tyson.  I think the documentary quite accurately reflected the skepticism in the general boxing community that Holyfield, who was already considered merely an overblown cruiserweight to begin with, was on a serious decline after failing to decisively beat ancient former champs Foreman and Holmes (that Holmes fight was damn close, by the way - young Holmes would have drubbed Holyfield from ringpost to ringpost), losing decisively to an unheralded Michael Moorer (seriously, tell me what Moorer's greatest victory was before beating Evander - getting promptly starched by the same George Foreman didn't do anything to dispel that narrative), and looking old, slow, and broken down against another blown-up cruiserweight Bobby Czyz.  And that doesn't even take into account the massive abuse we all saw Holyfield absorb against Riddick Bowe, two of which Holyfield lost, the last of which by stoppage.

 

Now to the extent Holyfield was underestimated I think it is fairer and more accurate to say that Tyson was massively overrated.  As part of his general decline since winning the titles in the 80s, Tyson had been gradually transforming himself from a mobile swarmer with excellent power into a "stand and land" slugger.  I don't think Tyson or anyone else was expecting Holyfield to physically shove him around the ring they way he did of course, but we now know that Evander was heavily into steroids and other PEDs, and you can see the clear and obvious difference in his physique between the Czyz fight and the first Tyson fight just 6 months later.  

 

Overall I enjoyed watching the documentary and seeing so much of that footage for the first time in years.  Those Bowe fights were just brutal, and seeing how both men turned out lent an aura of melancholy over that segment for me. 

 

 

I'm down for what Cobra Commander is talking about. You can basically do a 3-hour 30 for 30 on the weirdness of the heavyweight division from 1990 to 1998 and how it became so fractured over that time period. I can watch Atlas give those talks to Michael Moorer in the corner for the Holyfield fight all day long. That shit was magnificent. The very next fight, George Foreman hits Moorer so hard hit that Moorer's mouthpiece gets ripped apart by the impact of Moorer's teeth clenching down.

 

You can also talk about what the heavyweight boxing trajectory and lineage would look like if Lennox Lewis (who was not mentioned at all in Chasing Tyson) had came out after the 1984 Olympics instead of 1988. If that would have happened, you probably wouldn't have had guys like R&B recording artist (!) Pinklon Thomas still trying to go after a piece of the heavyweight crown. You could have had Lennox Lewis challenging as a mandatory in 1987 against Tyson (fresh off killing Trevor Berbick for the WBC belt and beating Bonecrusher) fifteen years before the fight ever actually happened.

 

Instead, we got Bowe having the rift with the WBC and not fighting Lennox. You had the promoters and networks basically creating these islands where guys were fighting whomever. Lennox ended up having those two infamous fights with Oliver McCall.

 

You had some very big, record setting fights, but you also had a bunch of big bouts being the casualties of behind-the-scenes politics and ultimately putting the end to the notoriety of heavyweight boxing in North America.

[Cobra Commander]

The Death of Heavyweight Boxing in the US probably accelerated around Tyson/Holyfield 2, then really became a thing with Holyfield/Lewis I and since Lennox Lewis retired, nobody has really given much of a shit about heavyweights in this country. Not to say they cared a lot for Lennox, but.

 

You'd probably need for Don King to pass away to pull off such a documentary without fear of lawsuit or armed goons. Although i'm sure other promoters did their best to make Boxing into a niche.

 

Or... a closely related topic to the decline of boxing... a 30 for 30 that pretty much takes the spirit of "Is This Legal?" in telling the early days of UFC.

 

(I'd also be interested in a 30 for 30 on US Soccer pre-MLS, but that's another topic)

[Elsalvajeloco]

The Death of Heavyweight Boxing in the US probably accelerated around Tyson/Holyfield 2, then really became a thing with Holyfield/Lewis I and since Lennox Lewis retired, nobody has really given much of a shit about heavyweights in this country. Not to say they cared a lot for Lennox, but.

 

You'd probably need for Don King to pass away to pull off such a documentary without fear of lawsuit or armed goons. Although i'm sure other promoters did their best to make Boxing into a niche.

 

Or... a closely related topic to the decline of boxing... a 30 for 30 that pretty much takes the spirit of "Is This Legal?" in telling the early days of UFC.

 

(I'd also be interested in a 30 for 30 on US Soccer pre-MLS, but that's another topic)

 

Right now, Don King isn't the guy I would be afraid of. He is only a threat to people stupid enough to be still under contract with him in the 21st century. It's all the other interested parties who were and still are in active part of the decline of boxing. They're not going to actively shit all over HBO and Showtime. That whole 30 for 30 was basically footage from those two networks outside of the Mathis fight that Tyson had during his comeback on Fox. Good luck with a documentary that's all still images.

[Cobra Commander]

Tyson/Mathis got bumped off of Fox and onto Showtime due to Tyson breaking his thumb. Had they done that fight, it'd be on Fox up against Bowe/Holyfield 3. Which would have made for another good storyline for the documentary had it happened like that.

 

Also, I was amused by a random Twitter doof insisting that Bowe or Michael Moorer could have beat Tyson if Tyson stayed out of prison. Bowe? maybe, maybe not. Moorer? nope. Teddy Atlas would need to bring his best speeches early if Moorer had fought Tyson.

 

But if we're talking guys that Tyson could have beat in the mid-90s that he didn't beat later... I think Tyson takes Lennox Lewis if they fought in the mid-90s. Lewis is older than Tyson, but it's safe to say that Lennox was in a better place as a fighter post-1997 than Tyson and his circus. Lewis lost on a flash to McCall and Rahman, so it's easier to make an argument for Tyson beating Lewis in the 90s than Tyson beating Holyfield.

 

To be fair to Holyfield.. Benny Hinn did KO him around 96.. so maybe i'm glossing over that.

[Elsalvajeloco]

Riddick Bowe before he won the belts was a motherfucker. Granted, some of that was against dubious competition. However, he did not look all that impressive after the first Holyfield fight. He had some really brief glimpses, but you can could still see it falling apart.

 

It's weird that a guy that size, that talented, and that athletic flamed out so quickly in an era where the boxing world could've been his for the taking. All he needed was to get by a few guys that might have been a challenge for him, and he could've legitimately been undisputed world champion for ten years. You're telling me this guy at his best couldn't beat Fres Oquendo, David Izon, Michael Grant, and David Tua?  He probably beat guys better than that on his way up.

[Cobra Commander]

The Riddick Bowe Wikipedia entry is peculiar because somebody shoehorned a section about Bowe flying aid into Somalia and Bowe paying a Filipino family whose son was electrocuted trying to get a Bowe fight via antenna. It's actually sourced, but it's in-between the paragraph on Bowe/Holyfield III and a paragraph on Bowe/Golota.

 

The 1990s Heavyweight division is largely comprised of guys that randomly fought in the 2010s. There's probably some solid candidates for a "bad decision making" power rankings in that division. Lewis might actually be one of the few major 90s heavyweights that didn't have to keep fighting past his 40th birthday, but I could be forgetting somebody obvious.

 

edit: Ike Ibeabuchi didn't have to keep fighting past 40. Because David Tua probably inflicted brain damage on Ibeabuchi and Ike has been in prison or in an immigration center limbo for the last 15 years.

[Elsalvajeloco]

The Riddick Bowe Wikipedia entry is peculiar because somebody shoehorned a section about Bowe flying aid into Somalia and Bowe paying a Filipino family whose son was electrocuted trying to get a Bowe fight via antenna. It's actually sourced, but it's in-between the paragraph on Bowe/Holyfield III and a paragraph on Bowe/Golota.

 

By somebody, I hope you mean Rock Newman. That's the only explanation.

 

The 1990s Heavyweight division is largely comprised of guys that randomly fought in the 2010s. There's probably some solid candidates for a "bad decision making" power rankings in that division. Lewis might actually be one of the few major 90s heavyweights that didn't have to keep fighting past his 40th birthday, but I could be forgetting somebody obvious.

 

How many of those were hooked on drugs and/or have alimony/delinquent child support payments? Once the purses started drying up and the networks started showing more fights under 154 pounds, it put a lot of the middle of the road heavyweight guys in a tight spot. DKP (and one the Duva connected promotions) was probably the only place I remember having a boatload of heavyweight fights for no particular reason up until 2006-07. Everyone else had a handful here and there with a few prospects surfacing before ultimately getting exposed. So if you had to deal with Don King, yeah, you're most likely going to be broke.

 

Also, you can look at the fact that a fighter like Tony Thompson can still get television fights in this day and age because they're one of the few barely known heavyweights. Shit, you can fight in your 40s and probably get a crack at one of the seven WBA belts they recognize in each division.

[Cobra Commander]

Rock Newman doesn't actually have a Wikipedia entry. Not sure if future generations are missing out. One guy did add all of the humanitarian section (and his only other contributions involved Cosell, Douglas/Holyfield, History of MNF and Kirk Gibson's 1988 home run)

 

As for old guys in the current HW division. Antonio Tarver fought at heavyweight this summer. You mentioned Thompson. Amir Mansour is 22-1 and 43 years old. Kali Meehan fought a month ago. Shannon Briggs is still around. Hasim Rahman fought last year. Oliver McCall fought last year. Michael Grant fought last year. David Tua fought 2 years ago. Razor Ruddock fought over this summer.

 

....

 

coincidentally they're airing a boxing bloc of 30 for 30s tonight, so the Muhammad and Larry is on at this moment.

[Elsalvajeloco]

Rock Newman doesn't actually have a Wikipedia entry. Not sure if future generations are missing out. One guy did add all of the humanitarian section (and his only other contributions involved Cosell, Douglas/Holyfield, History of MNF and Kirk Gibson's 1988 home run)

 

As for old guys in the current HW division. Antonio Tarver fought at heavyweight this summer. You mentioned Thompson. Amir Mansour is 22-1 and 43 years old. Kali Meehan fought a month ago. Shannon Briggs is still around. Hasim Rahman fought last year. Oliver McCall fought last year. Michael Grant fought last year. David Tua fought 2 years ago. Razor Ruddock fought over this summer.

 

....

 

coincidentally they're airing a boxing bloc of 30 for 30s tonight, so the Muhammad and Larry is on at this moment.

 

Ruddock did not fight as much as he decorated the canvas in Toronto. The guy who fought and destroyed Michael Dokes was Razor Ruddock. The 51 year old guy who got laid out like an old Persian rug on that PBC undercard is Donovan Ruddock. Never should the two be confused.

 

Also, I like how the Antonio Tarver who beat a crippling crack addiction to save his career is now doing PEDs and fighting on the same card as his son (also named Antonio). Even if he wasn't juicing, he would probably be a top 15 HW despite looking like James "The Grim Reaper" Roper during the weigh-in scene in The Great White Hype.

[Cobra Commander]

BoxRec's top 10 heavyweights: Klitschko, giant gap, Povetkin, Fury, Wilder, Kubrat Pulev, Vyacheslav Glazkov, Malik Scott, Erkan Teper, Joseph Parker and Antonio Tarver. 6 Europeans, 3 Americans, 1 Australian (Parker). Not sure how much of their formula keeps a Tarver high due to the residuals of his peak.

 

So... onwards to watching a reairing of Trojan War.

[Serious Darius Bagfelt]

Tyson spent years in the pen. Anything that happened during his boxing career after that is whatever to me. If he faces Holyfield earlier which was supposed to happen I think the result is far different. I don't think you do a bid and come back the same fighter.

Especially when basically all the fights he had after he got sprung from the big house were set ups and bad dive jobs.  Holyfield might have got him had they fought when they were originally supposed too since Tyson checked out on boxing after the Spinks fight

[Mistah Na1m4rk]

 

 

The 1990s Heavyweight division is largely comprised of guys that randomly fought in the 2010s. There's probably some solid candidates for a "bad decision making" power rankings in that division. Lewis might actually be one of the few major 90s heavyweights that didn't have to keep fighting past his 40th birthday, but I could be forgetting somebody obvious.

 

I think the general success of George Foreman and Larry Holmes' comebacks encouraged a lot of fighters that they "still had it".  Nobody remembers Joe Frazier fighting Jumbo Cummings.  

 

The 90s heavyweight scene is a good reminder at how far boxing had regressed.  Larry Holmes was a legitimate top-10 all-time heavyweight, and after a few tuneup fights he faced a prime juiced-to-the-gills Holyfield at the age of 43 and made the young lion look like crap.  

[Mistah Na1m4rk]

 

coincidentally they're airing a boxing bloc of 30 for 30s tonight, so the Muhammad and Larry is on at this moment.

 

I watched the whole block last night, even though I'd seen them all before.  Great memories for ol' Mike.  Ali trained for his comeback with Holmes at the 5th street gym in Miami, where I actually did some sparring myself, so I always love seeing the familiar spaces and imagining the sour smell.  Watching Ali now you could see how clearly compromised he was physically, but people simply overlooked the obvious signs.  Sad stuff.

 

Watching prime Roberto Duran should bring a smile to anyone's face though.  That guy was a killer.  I loved how much face time Ray Arcel got in that documentary, that man was a national treasure for boxing.

[supremebve]

 

 

 

The 1990s Heavyweight division is largely comprised of guys that randomly fought in the 2010s. There's probably some solid candidates for a "bad decision making" power rankings in that division. Lewis might actually be one of the few major 90s heavyweights that didn't have to keep fighting past his 40th birthday, but I could be forgetting somebody obvious.

 

I think the general success of George Foreman and Larry Holmes' comebacks encouraged a lot of fighters that they "still had it".  Nobody remembers Joe Frazier fighting Jumbo Cummings.  

 

The 90s heavyweight scene is a good reminder at how far boxing had regressed.  Larry Holmes was a legitimate top-10 all-time heavyweight, and after a few tuneup fights he faced a prime juiced-to-the-gills Holyfield at the age of 43 and made the young lion look like crap.  

 

Larry Holmes could ugly up a fight with anyone.  At that point in his career, all he really had was that jab, and it gave a lot of guys fits.  I remember going to our neighborhood fight parties(I lived in a neighborhood where just about all of the adults had done some boxing) and being bored out of my mind watching him win fights while out ever throwing his right hand.  All the old dudes were trying to tell me and my friends how Holmes was teaching these young boys a lesson, but man those fights were ugly.

[Mistah Na1m4rk]

If you can't take the measure of a 43 year-old guy with no right hand, you aren't an elite heavyweight in any but the most time-specific terms.  Don't forget Larry was coming off a boxing lesson administered to a prime Ray Mercer, who himself was coming off his murderous knockout of Tommy Morrison.  People were LEGITIMATELY SCARED for Larry's life going into that fight.  Larry showed everyone that the current crop of top heavyweights couldn't handle a solid jab (admittedly Larry may have the best jab in heavyweight history, but his 43 year-old jab was not nearly the weapon it was when he was 30), a little shoulder movement, and some basic clinching and footwork.  Everyone from that 90s-era was overrated historically.  The giant gloves and 12 round limits had taken their toll after a generation.  There was no going back.

[Josh Mann]

I'm genuinely glad that Holmes got the respect he deserved after his career that he never got during it.

[supremebve]

I'm genuinely glad that Holmes got the respect he deserved after his career that he never got during it.

My favorite Larry Homes fight took place in a parking lot.

[Tabe]

Without a doubt, one of the all-time great sports moments:

[Josh Mann]

There are three fights that made me love boxing: Creed-Balboa II, Hearns-Leonard I and Holmes-Norton.

[Mistah Na1m4rk]

Holmes vs Norton is one of the all-time great, closely-contested heavyweight title fights.  If you want to talk about a fighter not receiving his due appreciation you can cite Norton as well - I've argued for some time that if Norton was given the decision for the third fight with Muhammad Ali, which I think he clearly won, then he's a guy who took two out of three from "The Greatest" and only lost the one fight by a thin margin.  History, I would argue, would judge Norton much differently were that the official score.  Kenny Norton has to be considered among the very top of heavyweight greats to have never held the lineal belt, alongside Sam Langford and Jerry Quarry.  Great jab, good stamina, hit hard, it was only a questionable chin that kept Norton from being a surefire champion.

 

He probably should have retired after the Holmes fight, at least in retrospect.  Ernie Shavers hit him so hard I thought Norton was dead.  Stupid fight by Norton, he stood in front of one of the hardest hitters the division had ever seen instead of moving.  To hear Norton tell it, IIRC, Gerry Cooney hit him even harder.  Gerry Cooney - now there was a guy who could have been a great champion with just a bit of luck and better timing.  That guy hit *hard*.

[Hamhock]

I still want to know how the hell Holmes got up from the knockdown in the 7th round of the second Shavers fight.

[Mistah Na1m4rk]

I still want to know how the hell Holmes got up from the knockdown in the 7th round of the second Shavers fight.

 

Look at how tired and arm-weary Shavers was that round.  After Larry got up Shavers was winging arm punches that missed by a good foot or more.  

 

Holmes had great recovery skills too, which is good because he got knocked down a lot in his career.  20 seconds after the knockdown he was moving and jabbing like nothing had happened.  

[Josh Mann]

He's got a point, though. That punch by Shavers would have dropped an elephant.

[supremebve]

He's got a point, though. That punch by Shavers would have dropped an elephant.

Fun Fact:  Earnie Shavers is my cousin.

[Serious Darius Bagfelt]

I dont know Norton is a guy I could never rank that high.  His style was murder to swift boxers like Ali and Holmes but when Norton lost it was devastating.  I think it was that confidence and chin he lacked.  He was scared shitless against Foreman