August 2024 Wrestling Discussion

[AxB]

10 minutes ago, Zakk_Sabbath said:

Totally agree with both of you guys, and to add to your points: irrespective of frequency (though I cant imagine a soul outside of maybe Vince Russo who would advocate for cards full of 'em)

Wrong Vince. It was McMahon who instituted and maintained the "All dirty finishes all of the time" formula.

In the WWF record book, almost every match (that was an actual match; ie not a Squash) has an asterisk next to the winners name, indicating that there was a mitigating factor. 

[Zakk_Sabbath]

1 hour ago, AxB said:

Wrong Vince. It was McMahon who instituted and maintained the "All dirty finishes all of the time" formula.

In the WWF record book, almost every match (that was an actual match; ie not a Squash) has an asterisk next to the winners name, indicating that there was a mitigating factor. 

True, great point - I almost feel like that's sort of an unavoidable "necessary evil" of running a babyface territory. I only mentioned ol' Vic Venom because I was thinking about some of those late-era WCW programs he booked where it was just one after another after another.

 

[Cobra Commander]

listening to "Purple Rain" and imagining how fucked up Kevin Sullivan would have needed to be to bring in a fake Prince who would sing "PURPLE HAZE PURPLE HAZE"

[Technico Support]

To @SovietShooter’s point, I definitely think fuck finishes can be a useful tool in a booker’s arsenal.  I’m just overreacting to one promotion doing fuck finishes seemingly 90% of the time.  When people are discussing your upcoming card and every match’s speculation centers around guessing how you’ll get out of a decisive win and/or keep both guys strong, you have fucked up and should go to booker jail.

Edited August 13 by Technico Support

[Log]

Remember a time in the late-90's when, as soon as a match would hit it's finishing sequence, fans would start looking toward the entrance for run-ins? That was a dark time for finishes.

 

[odessasteps]

I wouldn’t be surprised if they still did t do that, esp for things like the bloodline, 

[tbarrie]

6 minutes ago, Log said:

Remember a time in the late-90's when, as soon as a match would hit it's finishing sequence, fans would start looking toward the entrance for run-ins? That was a dark time for finishes.

 

I remember that as an anecdote about Flair matches back in the Horsemen's heyday. So quite a bit earlier than the late '90s.

[SirSmUgly]

53 minutes ago, Technico Support said:

To @SovietShooter’s point, I definitely think fuck finishes can be a useful tool in a booker’s arsenal.  I’m just overreacting to one promotion doing fuck finishes seemingly 90% of the time.  When people are discussing your upcoming card and every match’s speculation centers around guessing how you’ll get out of a decisive win and/or keep both guys strong, you have fucked up and should go to booker jail.

Watts did tons of fuck finishes on Mid-South TV and even at big shows, but it was generally compelling. I think you can get away with this type of booking if you're on fire creatively, like almost any other type of booking.

I also tend to think that "how are they going to book their way out of this talk" is extremely limited to a small pocket of fans that we find ourselves in. We're like the wrestling fan equivalent of having taken a literary criticism class and trying to apply Derridian discussion of signs and signifiers to Dan Brown thrillers, you know?

 

43 minutes ago, Log said:

Remember a time in the late-90's when, as soon as a match would hit it's finishing sequence, fans would start looking toward the entrance for run-ins? That was a dark time for finishes.

 

This is especially bad in the back half of Nitro-era WCW. I find myself wishing that wrestlers would fast-forward through the cursory work to get to the finish on most Nitros and PPVs.

But again, that wasn't a problem for me watching Mid-South TV main events, or even for the first couple years of Nitro-era WCW. While I think most things are complex, I really do think that for the most part, "are you telling compelling stories that the fans are invested in" solves 99% of the issues with booking a lot of fuck finishes, schmozzes, etc.

[odessasteps]

Really started in JCP as part of Dusty's downfall as booker 

[Cobra Commander]

1 hour ago, Log said:

Remember a time in the late-90's when, as soon as a match would hit it's finishing sequence, fans would start looking toward the entrance for run-ins? That was a dark time for finishes.

in the case of WWF, they at least had the excuse of looking to the entrance to see the screen... meanwhile fans were looking at the entrance in WCW which didn't use a tron

[dogwelder]

Trailer for The Queen of Villians

[twiztor]

3 hours ago, odessasteps said:

Really started in JCP as part of Dusty's downfall as booker 

i wonder when the very first run-in was? can you imagine the heat? 

[odessasteps]

The Terrible Turk has hit the ring, is he after Gotch or Hackenschmidt?

[Death From Above]

I swear every Nitro had the same main event finish for like 4 years. No matter what they promised you it ended in a heel run in and beatdown. If you were lucky you got a Sting appearance at the end of it lol

[Cliff Hanger]

39 minutes ago, Death From Above said:

I swear every Nitro had the same main event finish for like 4 years. No matter what they promised you it ended in a heel run in and beatdown. If you were lucky you got a Sting appearance at the end of it lol

"Scheduled for TV Time Remaining" was just screaming "c'mon, y'all know how this ends and you know you want it anyway." To the point that I still cringe when AEW uses it.

Edited August 14 by Cliff Hanger
Fixed 2 typos

[username]

I think the issue is that pretty much every BS finish in the booker's arsenal has been run into the ground already and needs to probably go away for the better part of a decade across all promotions to become useful once more.

 

That said this may be a modern problem as there are several territories that went without clean finishes for years at a time, from the Monday Night Wars to 80s puro to heel ref lucha libre, without collapsing so it may just be that the problem is that we've been given too many clean finishes in recent times and that is what screwed everything up >_>

[Cobra Commander]

10 hours ago, Cobra Commander said:

listening to "Purple Rain" and imagining how fucked up Kevin Sullivan would have needed to be to bring in a fake Prince who would sing "PURPLE HAZE PURPLE HAZE"

the backup plan for the Haze if Mark Lewin was unavailable... Michael Hayes is The Purple Hayes. With Sullivan mixing Freebird jargon into his usual talk. Abuddadein lives on the baddest part of Badstreet in Singapore.

[The Natural]

We need CM Punk vs. Drew McIntyre in a bracelet on a pole match. ;).

[Hamhock]

11 hours ago, twiztor said:

i wonder when the very first run-in was? can you imagine the heat? 

Picturing the 19th Century Stone Cold Steve Austin riding a penny farthing bicycle to the ring. O, Hades Yes!

[hammerva]

A little disappointed that The Queen of Villians series on Netflix is just a "based on true story" series and not documentary style as I thought.  Still could be really good 

[zendragon]

8 hours ago, Cobra Commander said:

the backup plan for the Haze if Mark Lewin was unavailable... Michael Hayes is The Purple Hayes. With Sullivan mixing Freebird jargon into his usual talk. Abuddadein lives on the baddest part of Badstreet in Singapore.

I'm sure Hayes had a few bites of the cosmic cookie

 

16 hours ago, SirSmUgly said:

Watts did tons of fuck finishes on Mid-South TV and even at big shows, but it was generally compelling. I think you can get away with this type of booking if you're on fire creatively, like almost any other type of booking.

I also tend to think that "how are they going to book their way out of this talk" is extremely limited to a small pocket of fans that we find ourselves in. We're like the wrestling fan equivalent of having taken a literary criticism class and trying to apply Derridian discussion of signs and signifiers to Dan Brown thrillers, you know?

 

This is especially bad in the back half of Nitro-era WCW. I find myself wishing that wrestlers would fast-forward through the cursory work to get to the finish on most Nitros and PPVs.

But again, that wasn't a problem for me watching Mid-South TV main events, or even for the first couple years of Nitro-era WCW. While I think most things are complex, I really do think that for the most part, "are you telling compelling stories that the fans are invested in" solves 99% of the issues with booking a lot of fuck finishes, schmozzes, etc.

This is the important thing for me, is the fuck finish part of continuing  an on going storyline or just doing to do them ALA Russo left to his own devices

[Technico Support]

2 hours ago, Hamhock said:

Picturing the 19th Century Stone Cold Steve Austin riding a penny farthing bicycle to the ring. O, Hades Yes!

Spraying the ring with mead

[Hamhock]

9 minutes ago, Technico Support said:

Spraying the ring with mead

“Your shoulders shall be constrained to the mat and counted, sir - not once, not twice, but thrice!” 

[Cobra Commander]

2 hours ago, zendragon said:

I'm sure Hayes had a few bites of the cosmic cookie

BROTHA I WAS STRAPPED TO THE TREE OF WOE ON BADSTREET. ME AND TERRY AND BUDDY JACK DRANK OUR WAY DOWN THE HALL OF MEMORIES. WE WENT TO BANGKOK AND SINGAPORE

[JLowe]

12 hours ago, The Natural said:

We need CM Punk vs. Drew McIntyre in a bracelet on a pole match. ;).

I saw a comment online where someone said they couldn’t watch AEW because it reminded them of WCW under Russo and it reminded me that there are just a lot of really dumb people out there.