August 2024 Wrestling Discussion

[Zakk_Sabbath]

15 minutes ago, Log said:

I think the reason the Sandy Hook apology came out was that she did an AMA, and she got flooded with questions about it. Now, I also agree that it's a very nice apology, and I'm not trying to downplay it, but that may explain the timing.

Ironically, the transphobia accusations come from another AMA she did when she was still fighting with UFC, where someone asked her about potentially fighting a trans person.

Now, I'm about as much of a transphobe as I am a medical doctor (so not at all) but in all honesty, I really don't know if it was that crazy of a thing for her to say -especially a decade ago, when we (societally speaking) had much less information about these sort of things on the whole.

I found the comment, so take a look and judge for yourself - and if I'm wrong and this IS an offensive thing to say, anyone reading this definitely DO NOT HESISTATE to call me out about it - I'm just trying to get clarity on why it was considered offensive, not trying to do the offending (re-offending?):

https://np.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/3gixri/rowdy_ronda_rousey_here_ama/ctyl1a9/

 

Edited August 23 by Zakk_Sabbath
actually kind of prescient timing with the fake Olympic boxing "controversy" we were chatting about the other week

[zendragon]

the transphobic accusations may have more to do with her comments towards Chris Cyborg

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2035214-ronda-rousey-cris-cyborg-is-not-even-a-woman-anymore-from-steroid-use

[Zakk_Sabbath]

22 minutes ago, zendragon said:

the transphobic accusations may have more to do with her comments towards Chris Cyborg

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2035214-ronda-rousey-cris-cyborg-is-not-even-a-woman-anymore-from-steroid-use

Ahhh ok yeah, I kinda remember that. It seemed more anti-P.E.D. to me than anything, but I definitely see now where someone could take issue with the thing about taking so many steroids she's not a woman anymore. It's not like, explicitly stated, but I could see the idea of something in that realm being the possible subtext, intentional or not by her.

[Elsalvajeloco]

It's funny cause literally the other day she was discussing Cris and seems to have the same beef just with 150% less transphobia I guess. Ten years later, she still cannot let it go. Same Ronda.

Also, I thought the whole Alex Jones lawsuit beginning years ago would've coerced a lot of people into apologizing about putting out pure fiction. Like you don't wait until folks are liquidating their own assets to pay victims before you do an about face. Normally, it's before. That's common sense.

[Gorman]

On 8/22/2024 at 12:39 PM, The Natural said:

 

Bret Hart vs. Mr Perfect King of the Ring 1993 is better than SummerSlam 1991.

 

I will agree and I will add the second Razor-HBK ladder match at SummerSlam 95. 

I was at both of these shows!

[zendragon]

2 hours ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

It's funny cause literally the other day she was discussing Cris and seems to have the same beef just with 150% less transphobia I guess. Ten years later, she still cannot let it go. Same Ronda.

Also, I thought the whole Alex Jones lawsuit beginning years ago would've coerced a lot of people into apologizing about putting out pure fiction. Like you don't wait until folks are liquidating their own assets to pay victims before you do an about face. Normally, it's before. That's common sense.

I remember the day she made the post and like ten minutes later made a retraction. Clearly someone saw what she said and told here "rhonda you take that down now!"

[AxB]

Ronda Rousey: Not as completely stupid and horrible as Gina Carano.

[Zakk_Sabbath]

1 hour ago, Gorman said:

I will agree and I will add the second Razor-HBK ladder match at SummerSlam 95. 

I was at both of these shows!

That's a good shout - I was also JUST thinking about this match last night watching the DNC because they kept using a similar overhead shot over the United Center (that SS was I think the first wrestling card after it opened). I always underrated that match compared to WMX, but I heard a Kevin Nash shoot interview years ago that gave me a new perspective on it: Nash relays a story where the rest of the Kliq aided in putting that match together in the car because everything originally planned needed to be scrapped, as apparently Vince had recently come to the conclusion that they were actually in competition with Disney as a family-friendly show, and thus they weren't to use the ladder as a weapon on each other. So bearing that limitation in mind, I think it's honestly kinda nothing short of miraculous that they even came close to the quality of Mania match

[zendragon]

1 hour ago, AxB said:

Ronda Rousey: Not as completely stupid and horrible as Gina Carano.

not a high bar to clear

[Zimbra]

Carano having to white-knuckle her way through Newsmax interviews about how working with Kevin Sorbo is actually so much better than Star Wars is probably a pretty good argument for Rousey to lean away from this shit.

[odessasteps]

I’m surprised Gina didn’t make her way into the kind of Skinamax action films that people made in the 80s and 90s. 

[J.H.]

I will never have sympathy for Carano. A person with generational wealth claiming persecution akin to the Holocaust can go fuck themselves!

James

[Stefanie Sparkleface]

6 hours ago, Zakk_Sabbath said:

Ironically, the transphobia accusations come from another AMA she did when she was still fighting with UFC, where someone asked her about potentially fighting a trans person.

Now, I'm about as much of a transphobe as I am a medical doctor (so not at all) but in all honesty, I really don't know if it was that crazy of a thing for her to say -especially a decade ago, when we (societally speaking) had much less information about these sort of things on the whole.

I found the comment, so take a look and judge for yourself - and if I'm wrong and this IS an offensive thing to say, anyone reading this definitely DO NOT HESISTATE to call me out about it - I'm just trying to get clarity on why it was considered offensive, not trying to do the offending (re-offending?):

https://np.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/3gixri/rowdy_ronda_rousey_here_ama/ctyl1a9/

 

That's the comment she made (ran through a publicist) to try and make good after her initial comment, which was... less nuanced and educated, to say the least.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/gameon/2013/04/11/ufc-ronda-rousey-transgender-fighter-fallon-fox/2072937/

I don't really fault someone for making an ignorant statement about trans bodies and bone structure eleven years ago considering how limited scientific research was regarding the subject at the time. I would fault her if she still held the same opinion today, since early studies are showing that in terms of bone mineral density, adult trans women have less bone density on average than cis women, and trans women who transition in puberty are essentially negligible in difference to cis women.

(Also, people talking about skeletons and bones as a means of invalidating one's humanity is a little too close to phrenology for my comfort, but what do I know.)

[Zimbra]

25 minutes ago, odessasteps said:

I’m surprised Gina didn’t make her way into the kind of Skinamax action films that people made in the 80s and 90s. 

Like JH said she's rich rich, she wasn't worried about paying the bills.

[Elsalvajeloco]

She starred in a goddamn Steven Soderbergh film w/ basically no established acting experience. Yeah, I doubt you're going to fall all the way down to pseudo softcore porn. I mean she kinda fell from grace even before the whole right wing stuff, but that was because quitting MMA to go to do acting when she had the acting skills of a soggy cornflakes was probably not the best idea. When she was doing MMA, she got the Haywire gig out of nowhere, she got to be on American Gladiators on NBC when NBC was desperately trying to revamp that, and she was on CBS and Showtime fairly regularly. She was THE poster girl for a sport that was still rising and didn't have to share the space with other women cause she was THE star. And that's without ever fighting for the UFC. She quit MMA and was MIA seemingly until she had a bit role in Deadpool. She had probably one of the most useless cameos in a F&F film ever. I think she also got to be on a Fox show that lasted like 3 months before it got cancelled. For her to get on The Mandalorian was a godsend for her career, which was floundering. However, I think she was perfectly fine with just doing random direct to video films. Now, that's the only thing she can really do anyway so it's just back to the pre-Mandalorian days.

 

[Elsalvajeloco]

Re: the Fallon Fox saga

I hope to never relive that ever again. Here is where I fault Ronda (and others especially those in Rogan vortex at the time): That several week ordeal just became a place to parrot talking points with no credible evidence and being done by people who probably only finished high school IF THAT. It's something incredibly out of the average person's wheelhouse to discuss.

Pre The Ultimate Fighter season she did with Miesha Tate when it became clear Ronda had some unlikeable traits about her, people dug some of that YOU GO GURL homespun wisdom. Now, people know it's complete horseshit. All of it. So why are you trying to speak on something you know really nothing about? That and what was the likelihood of Ronda Rousey fighting a trans woman? 0.000009%?  It's a non zero positive integer maybe, but it's very, very small. That and HER BOSS before he himself likely got reprimanded for comments of the same ilk was/is a transphobe so it's not like he's about to go employ someone who is trans anyway. The right answer then AND now is, "You know what? I am not completely up on this....sorry I don't really have an answer for you." 

That's why the stuff from this past Summer Olympic games was so bizarre to me. First off, I didn't know women's boxing had so many fans. CELEBRITY fans no less. Hell, women's pro boxing has actual stars now and only hardcores like myself watch. Second, there is a fighter in Southern California named Patricio Manuel. Patricio Manuel used to be PATRICIA Manuel. When Patricio was still identifying as a woman before transitioning, he fought on the USA Women's boxing team about ten or so years ago right around the time women's boxing was being introduced into the Olympics. Women's boxing in the amateur ranks was still fairly new and real, actual competition was sparse to the point where Claressa Shields as like a high school sophomore was dominating grown ass women. Anyway, the then Patricia Manuel wasn't skilled enough and never made it in. Patricio had top surgery after stepping away from amateur boxing and several years later (fairly recently) fought on the untelevised undercards of IIRC a few Golden Boy boxing cards mainly held in and around Southern California. That's not exactly fighting in gym smokers or in some dive bar. That's fairly high level even if it's not on TV. Well, Patricio got knocked out in his last fight by someone whose assigned gender at birth was male. That was back in April of this year. So you had someone who was a fringe level to okay-ish fighter as a female amateur now fighting men in the paid professional ranks where even the less skilled male fighters can damn near decapitate someone is extremely skilled (see the Ashton Sylve KO loss that went viral and probably will win Ring Magazine Knockout of the Year). It also doesn't help turning pro in your late 30s is a hell of an ask when most of the best boxers (those who aren't HWs at least) on the world level started as kids. Hell, the aforementioned Ashton Sylve was still barely in middle school when I first heard about him. The new hotness in boxing is Curmel Moton. Moton just turned eighteen two months ago. He just beat a ranked fighter in the pros a month after turning eighteen. So being born a female when most actual females who box at a high level don't really have any power to speak of (that Ann Wolfe KO of Vonda Ward is 1 of 1 and will likely remain that way for ANOTHER 20 years) and choosing to fight pro male fighters that late in life for this given profession is not quite ideal and ripe for ridicule and controversy.

It was such a big story that it was only put on one boxing site that I saw. That was it. And that's the way it honestly should be because Patricio Manuel knows what he's getting into. It's the hurt business.

Moreover, Patricio is probably one of like three trans people in pro boxing, which has probably well over 100,000 active participants at a given time. You would have a better chance winning your state lottery than fighting someone who is trans in boxing or MMA. Moreover, NONE of these people are hiding anything. You would think every instance it's this thriller film level twist where it comes out these people are not fighting under their gender assigned at birth. Nope! Even in the case of Fallon Fox, the only dubious thing in that situation was something totally unrelated to Fallon Fox. Low level MMA itself, especially several years ago, was still the goddamn Wild West. You're only some years removed from Tommy Morrison, who was HIV positive and had been for 11 years at that point, fighting on some MMA show with fairly limited regulation. Kyle Maynard fifteen years ago as a quadruple amputee fought in the state of Alabama, which I believe didn't regulate pro MMA at the time. If my memory serves me correct, the GREAT STATE OF MISSISSIPPI did regulate it (cursory search on the board shows I even bought it up before: https://deathvalleydriver.com/forum/index.php?/topic/329-ufc-fight-night-26-shogun-vs-sonnen-8172013-boston-ma-td-garden/&do=findComment&comment=19723). The expectations anything be done at that level of MMA above the call of duty was and still is FOOLHARDY. I can't fault MMA fighters for operating within the scope of what MMA was then and perhaps still is. So forgive Fallon Fox for not wearing a giant neon, blinking sign that said "YES, I WAS BORN A MALE". You don't have to go on wild ass tangents about people "chopping their pecker off". You can have some level of decency and decorum.

[username]

I've always sort of had the same thoughts about Rousey with regards to the Sandy Hook stuff, and it is such: I don't think she's hateful or doing a "just asking questions" bit, she's likely just very dumb. I've seen interviews with her where a question was stated in a straightforward way yet not how she expected and she legit couldn't follow it, sometimes dumb people fall for dumb shit.

[Stefanie Sparkleface]

42 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Re: the Fallon Fox saga

I hope to never relive that ever again. Here is where I fault Ronda (and others especially those in Rogan vortex at the time): That several week ordeal just became a place to parrot talking points with no credible evidence and being done by people who probably only finished high school IF THAT. It's something incredibly out of the average person's wheelhouse to discuss.

Pre The Ultimate Fighter season she did with Miesha Tate when it became clear Ronda had some unlikeable traits about her, people dug some of that YOU GO GURL homespun wisdom. Now, people know it's complete horseshit. All of it. So why are you trying to speak on something you know really nothing about? That and what was the likelihood of Ronda Rousey fighting a trans woman? 0.000009%?  It's a non zero positive integer maybe, but it's very, very small. That and HER BOSS before he himself likely got reprimanded for comments of the same ilk was/is a transphobe so it's not like he's about to go employ someone who is trans anyway. The right answer then AND now is, "You know what? I am not completely up on this....sorry I don't really have an answer for you." 

That's why the stuff from this past Summer Olympic games was so bizarre to me. First off, I didn't know women's boxing had so many fans. CELEBRITY fans no less. Hell, women's pro boxing has actual stars now and only hardcores like myself watch. Second, there is a fighter in Southern California named Patricio Manuel. Patricio Manuel used to be PATRICIA Manuel. When Patricio was still identifying as a woman before transitioning, he fought on the USA Women's boxing team about ten or so years ago right around the time women's boxing was being introduced into the Olympics. Women's boxing in the amateur ranks was still fairly new and real, actual competition was sparse to the point where Claressa Shields as like a high school sophomore was dominating grown ass women. Anyway, the then Patricia Manuel wasn't skilled enough and never made it in. Patricio had top surgery after stepping away from amateur boxing and several years later (fairly recently) fought on the untelevised undercards of IIRC a few Golden Boy boxing cards mainly held in and around Southern California. That's not exactly fighting in gym smokers or in some dive bar. That's fairly high level even if it's not on TV. Well, Patricio got knocked out in his last fight by someone whose assigned gender at birth was male. That was back in April of this year. So you had someone who was a fringe level to okay-ish fighter as a female amateur now fighting men in the paid professional ranks where even the less skilled male fighters can damn near decapitate someone is extremely skilled (see the Ashton Sylve KO loss that went viral and probably will win Ring Magazine Knockout of the Year). It also doesn't help turning pro in your late 30s is a hell of an ask when most of the best boxers (those who aren't HWs at least) on the world level started as kids. Hell, the aforementioned Ashton Sylve was still barely in middle school when I first heard about him. The new hotness in boxing is Curmel Moton. Moton just turned eighteen two months ago. He just beat a ranked fighter in the pros a month after turning eighteen. So being born a female when most actual females who box at a high level don't really have any power to speak of (that Ann Wolfe KO of Vonda Ward is 1 of 1 and will likely remain that way for ANOTHER 20 years) and choosing to fight pro male fighters that late in life for this given profession is not quite ideal and ripe for ridicule and controversy.

It was such a big story that it was only put on one boxing site that I saw. That was it. And that's the way it honestly should be because Patricio Manuel knows what he's getting into. It's the hurt business.

Moreover, Patricio is probably one of like three trans people in pro boxing, which has probably well over 100,000 active participants at a given time. You would have a better chance winning your state lottery than fighting someone who is trans in boxing or MMA. Moreover, NONE of these people are hiding anything. You would think every instance it's this thriller film level twist where it comes out these people are not fighting under their gender assigned at birth. Nope! Even in the case of Fallon Fox, the only dubious thing in that situation was something totally unrelated to Fallon Fox. Low level MMA itself, especially several years ago, was still the goddamn Wild West. You're only some years removed from Tommy Morrison, who was HIV positive and had been for 11 years at that point, fighting on some MMA show with fairly limited regulation. Kyle Maynard fifteen years ago as a quadruple amputee fought in the state of Alabama, which I believe didn't regulate pro MMA at the time. If my memory serves me correct, the GREAT STATE OF MISSISSIPPI did regulate it (cursory search on the board shows I even bought it up before: https://deathvalleydriver.com/forum/index.php?/topic/329-ufc-fight-night-26-shogun-vs-sonnen-8172013-boston-ma-td-garden/&do=findComment&comment=19723). The expectations anything be done at that level of MMA above the call of duty was and still is FOOLHARDY. I can't fault MMA fighters for operating within the scope of what MMA was then and perhaps still is. So forgive Fallon Fox for not wearing a giant neon, blinking sign that said "YES, I WAS BORN A MALE". You don't have to go on wild ass tangents about people "chopping their pecker off". You can have some level of decency and decorum.

Re: decency and decorum about trans people, I used to keep a running tally of invasive questions I was asked when I started my transition, and I stopped counting when I reached a thousand. I was only about two and a half years in when I stopped counting, and I started transitioning thirteen years ago, so... 

You know what, I don't want to do the extrapolating data on that, I cry enough.

The reason I give people a little bit of slack on not knowing the physiological differences is because of how poorly science has failed trans folks (did you know that most studies until about eight or nine years ago would automatically assume results that applied to cis men also applied to trans women, and never bothered to test trans women?), and I do like to hold out hope that maybe, just maybe, people will take the time to learn. Hope's all I have most days, otherwise I just turn into a ball of negativity and depression, and I have more important things to do with my life than that.

[AxB]

Alana Mclaughlin's MMA record still only features one fight, almost three years ago. And she's been trying to get booked on shows ever since, but it's not been happening. And her one fight, if you show it to anyone who knows their MMA, it's very obvious that she's not got an inhuman power advantage. She has the power advantage you would expect a 5'7" grappler to have over a 6'0" striker.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVOp5YdPLbg

See, it's right there.

[FourPostMassacre]

10 hours ago, username said:

I've always sort of had the same thoughts about Rousey with regards to the Sandy Hook stuff, and it is such: I don't think she's hateful or doing a "just asking questions" bit, she's likely just very dumb. I've seen interviews with her where a question was stated in a straightforward way yet not how she expected and she legit couldn't follow it, sometimes dumb people fall for dumb shit.

I think this is a good assessment. I remember she once claimed she was like a female Diaz brother which despite some key differences the idiocy lines up perfectly. 

[SovietShooter]

12 hours ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

She was THE poster girl for a sport that was still rising and didn't have to share the space with other women cause she was THE star. And that's without ever fighting for the UFC.

Putting aside the acting and all the other post-MMA stuff, Carano vs Cyborg should be acknowledged as what laid the groundwork for Rousey and the other ladies being able to break thru in MMA/UFC. The Strikeforce card with them on top drew a $750k gate, and was the first major US MMA card with women in the main event.  In 2009. 

I think people have forgotten how big that bout/card was.  It established that women could draw.  Without the success of that match, do you have women in UFC now?  That match was the Gail Kim vs Awesome Kong of MMA.

Edited August 24 by SovietShooter
Damn autocorrect

[odessasteps]

Thankfully, Dory appears to have come out of the Onita tag match unscathed.

[John E. Dynamite]

I'm of the opinion that Ronda is a decently fascinating psychological study, and that the hate against her is disproportionate to her transgressions and deeply grounded in sexism. But I started following her back before she was a champ in Strikeforce, so approaching it from the MMA side makes the patterns easier to see.

I never intended to be a Ronda defender, but things kept popping up. Somebody somewhere was dogging her promo abilities and quipped that she "must have a speech impediment or something". And then I looked it up and found out that she was born with the umbilical cord wrapped around her neck and developed a speech impediment so severe that she couldn't complete a proper sentence until she was six. I remember somebody claiming that she had "daddy issues" because that's what we accuse all women we don't like of having, and then I looked up the circumstances around her family life and her biological father's accidental paralysis and eventual suicide. Even her transphobic comments of yesterdecade seem informed by her stories of being bullied for being a muscular child athlete and being called "Miss Man" by other kids, and all of the body image issues and eating disorders she talked about growing up with. And I'm not saying all of that makes her comments correct or makes her a wonderful human being, but it does paint a decently human portrait that can at least contextualize why she is the way she is.

If you haven't seen it, this is a screenshot of Ronda's profile on a Pokemon Stadium 2 fansite from when she was 16 years old, very much using the cringey language of the 2003 internet. She's mentioned it in public discussion so it isn't some part of her past she's trying to keep buried. https://imgur.com/2AXpsSG And if that's our best snapshot of a pre-Olympics Ronda Rousey, then yeah, she seems like a 'normal' high school millennial geek girl. I think she had a really weird childhood as a judo prodigy, came out the other side of it not-so-well adjusted, and then wound up in the absolutely gross, amoral, alt-right clutches of MMA gym culture which led to her getting temporary Sandy Hook brain worms before shutting the hell up about it for eleven years. I think about the number of my favorite MMA fighters who have completely disappointed me as human beings and Ronda doesn't even come close to the top. That sport is not good for people. The toxicity she dealt with during the dying days of Vince's despotism probably doesn't come close.

[Elsalvajeloco]

4 hours ago, SovietShooter said:

Putting aside the acting and all the other post-MMA stuff, Carano vs Cyborg should be acknowledged as what laid the groundwork for Rousey and the other ladies being able to break thru in MMA/UFC. The Strikeforce card with them on top drew a $750k gate, and was the first major US MMA card with women in the main event.  In 2009. 

I think people have forgotten how big that bout/card was.  It established that women could draw.  Without the success of that match, do you have women in UFC now?  That match was the Gail Kim vs Awesome Kong of MMA.

Yeah, I would say EliteXC kicked it off with Carano vs. Kedzie and then Carano vs. Cyborg in Strikeforce proved it wasn't a fluke. If this the former doesn't do well, then it's hard to see how we get the latter. Credit to the late Gary Shaw because having worked with the being a NJ state commissioner and working with the Duva family/Main Events he understood you need different attractions to headline a card. In 2006/2007, with the impending collapse of PRIDE FC, UFC was about to control most of the top male talent in the world. Now as it turned out, there was still a bunch of awesome talent outside the UFC. However, it was like WCW/ECW dying around the same time. UFC was about have a complete monopoly as really the only game in town. Carano vs. Kedzie was kinda like Forrest Griffin vs. Stephan Bonnar in that on paper the fight meant nothing, but it completely overperformed for the people watching, Everything after that solidified that this should be around.

Do I think I female MMA would still be around if some of those things didn't? Yes, because it existed before Gina Carano and Ronda Rousey. However, much like female boxing outside of Amanda Serrano vs. Katie Taylor and Shields vs. Samantha Marshall, it would still be searching for something to make put more mainstream appeal on it. 

[Zakk_Sabbath]

God damn, I have kicked off a DISCUSSION. Thank you guys all very much for the links and expertise - I'm on my way out the door, but looks like I gotta lot of Sunday reading to do.