ALL IN III - 8/25/2024

[Phantom Lord]

Yeah, what should have been a good run for Swerve has been pretty dull. He's had good matches as champion. But nothing that stands out and makes him above and beyond everyone else. 

[Zakk_Sabbath]

10 minutes ago, Phantom Lord said:

Yeah, what should have been a good run for Swerve has been pretty dull. He's had good matches as champion. But nothing that stands out and makes him above and beyond everyone else. 

You know, that second point made me think a bit - DFA said before that Swerve was taking a backseat to MJF, and @StuntmanCrowleyalso just mentioned similar about the Elite - I wonder how much of this hum-drum feeling on him is just a byproduct of 1) MJF and Ospreay having THAT match, and 2) the Elite being heavily featured in service of building to B&G recently? I'm not saying I disagree whatsoever - I'm just trying to think of a way they could feasibly adjust/course correct with him in a manner that doesn't look like they just threw up their hands and said "Ah fuck it, Bryan's going over anyway"

[AxB]

If you read the thread while extremely tired, sometimes it looks like half the board is insisting that Danhausen should be AEW World Champion.

[Stefanie Sparkleface]

53 minutes ago, Phantom Lord said:

Yeah, what should have been a good run for Swerve has been pretty dull. He's had good matches as champion. But nothing that stands out and makes him above and beyond everyone else. 

I remember seeing a kerfuffle a few weeks back on Twitter when Bully Ray (worstpersonyouknowmakesapoint.png) pointed out on the lineup graphic that every champion had their title listed except for Swerve, and people went into defense mode saying "well you just hate AEW" or "he didn't need to be identified as champion because his belt was in the graphic". It's a perfectly good marketing tip, though; if I was a newer viewer, or I had missed a few months, or heaven forbid I don't know what the belt looks like, it's a nice thing to point out that yes, he is indeed the champion. AEW must have agreed because they revised the graphic to identify him as champ, but it's an unforced error that contributes to Swerve not feeling all that special as champion.

Similar to how you have a great build towards Swerve finally getting what's coming to him after antagonizing Hangman or Darby for months and months, then turning himself around and becoming champion, and Hangman could win a tournament to finally get his hands on the guy that broke into his house and ran off his family from feeling safe and secure and he can take away the only thing Swerve seems to care about...

... but we've gotta give the match to Danielson. For reasons. Apparently the belt to Danielson too. For reasons. Even though all the media he's done for months has him saying he's not physically capable of performing at that level anymore. Wow what a hook. I sure want to buy the PPV where the guy who says he can't compete at that level anymore due to his litany of health issues might get bludgeoned to death.

I'm sure the match itself, as a nuts and bolts match that will be watched and analyzed in a vacuum and given a star rating, will be fine, but they 1) could have done so much more to dig those hooks in and 2) had a much bigger payoff.

[NoFistsJustFlips]

Counterpoint, we've already seen 3 Hangman vs Swerve matches in less than a year. And nothing is topping that Texas Death Match. So to me, in my opinion, that pairing doesn't do much for me. The story being told is quite a bit different than ehat everyone is head-cannoning too.

Now that's not to say it can't be heated right back up with a few story beats. But the new untouchable ace slicing through everyone vs the legend on his last stand, who got his mojo back and won a grueling tournament, hits me as a better story to tell where we are currently.

Danielson vs Swerve also feels bigger to me. Now match quality is a thing. Storytelling is a thing. Aura is also a thing. And I feel like this match has an aura. Now that might just be me. But I'm surprised to see how divisive Bryan getting the match is. And him winning.

Everyone saying but he's too hurt. If he was too hurt he wouldn't be working that match. People are buying a bit too much into interviews where he's def exaggerating to accentuate the story he's telling. Like he's in the main event of All In. Him winning ot not winning doesn't change that he's gonna put on the match he's gonna put on. So saying him winning the title is too dangerous is a weird take from my perspective.

Him winning and doing like 3 or 4 title matches isn't him doing a G1 with 16 matches in 21 days or whatever it is. I think he can handle an All Out, Grand Slam, and WrestleDream slate without people having to fear for his life. Especially when there's a good chance he's working those 3 shows with or without being champion.

Edited July 31 by NoFistsJustFlips

[Stefanie Sparkleface]

4 minutes ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

But the new untouchable ace slicing through everyone vs the legend on his last stand, who got his mojo back and won a grueling tournament, hits me as a better story to tell where we are currently.

Which is your opinion, and you're entitled to it. My opinion to counter is that if that's the story they wanted to tell, then Jeff Jarrett cut some amazing promos leading up to the Owen that would have made me want to see if he could have pulled it off, and would have been suited for the role due to his visual appearance.

Would the match have gotten a million billion stars? Nope. Would there have been some fantastic promos and emotion and made Swerve look like an absolute killer when he puts Jarrett down because Jarrett, for all the criticism he gets, is an absolute master at making other people look fantastic? You bet.

And it's not just everyone saying he's too hurt. It's Danielson saying he's too hurt. If you're not already bought into the match then why would you want to watch it when one of the participants is saying he's broken down and can't go? Terry Funk could get away with it when he was on his last run in ECW because he was nearing 55 and you could tell it would be his last actual run. Danielson just makes me worried that the next time he does a seizure sell, he's legitimately having a seizure. I don't want to pay $50 for that.

[odessasteps]

I guess one issue is just how flexible is TK to his timeline when something spontaneous happens.  For example. If JJ caught lightning in a bottle in the last few weeks starting with the Owen stuff, would TK be willing to book on the fly and change his plans for Jeff?or is he wed to whatever he determined he has wanted.  Like the whole thing about having his champions planned out? In theory, wresting is best a mixture of planning and adapting when unexpected moments happen. 

[NoFistsJustFlips]

2 hours ago, Stefanie Sparkleface said:

And it's not just everyone saying he's too hurt. It's Danielson saying he's too hurt. If you're not already bought into the match then why would you want to watch it when one of the participants is saying he's broken down and can't go? Terry Funk could get away with it when he was on his last run in ECW because he was nearing 55 and you could tell it would be his last actual run. Danielson just makes me worried that the next time he does a seizure sell, he's legitimately having a seizure. I don't want to pay $50 for that.

I 1000% understand your stance. But he's almost surely exaggerating injuries and just using them (which is poor judgement in my opinion too) as story beats in the matches. He's on record as saying he loves to lie. There's nothing visually different about his matches except he straps up with tape. He still carries himself well physically when in non-in ring segments. Liek he still walks normally and does his coy smiles in his promos and laughs a lot. I've been around a ton of actually broken down dudes in the business (as have you I'm sure), and how he looks doesn't match up to what he's saying.

Regardless what side of the conversation we're all on, I think it's pretty universally agreed him using the fake injuries to the extent he does and the seizure sells... is poor judgement that takes us out of the moment, actually worrying for his real life health. But there's nothing beyond him in interviews (where he's doing a lotttttt of working) to indicate he's actually in serious poor health that we should worry about. We don't have to agree on which idea we like better and all that. But I just wish the fear for his health talk would dial back a bit. But I understand why it's at where it's at, it's Danielson's own words.
 

1 hour ago, odessasteps said:

I guess one issue is just how flexible is TK to his timeline when something spontaneous happens.  For example. If JJ caught lightning in a bottle in the last few weeks starting with the Owen stuff, would TK be willing to book on the fly and change his plans for Jeff?or is he wed to whatever he determined he has wanted.  Like the whole thing about having his champions planned out? In theory, wresting is best a mixture of planning and adapting when unexpected moments happen. 

I defend a lot of TK actions and decisions. But his lack of flexibility is one thing that drives me nuts. He's super rigid in his booking formula and storytelling style. The only flexibility at all I have recognized is only born out of injuries. Had MJF not got hurt, Joe isn't getting a run. And Swerve may not have been getting a reign (yet). I have no doubt someone could get over Austin 3:16 levels and he'd not change his plans. Long term storytelling can be great especially with a well done payoff. But sometimes it's more satisfying to switch gears and go with what's hot. And there's no evidence he's willing to do that unless his hand is forced.

[username]

I and others have pointed this out before but you can't have four "top" titles, pulling others up invariably pulls others down. If you just watched the past couple months of shows without any of the talking... would you pick out that Swerve's belt is bigger than the one MJF and Ospreay have been fighting over? At various points all four singles titles have been held by top guys (at this point the weakest champ is Perry who holds what for a while is theoretically the #2 belt in the company), the result is that all four belts are credible but also rather muddled without clear identities. I think this hurts Swerve's run as he's not being treated like he is special and stuff like that matters.

[RazorbladeKiss87]

If they take the storyline in the direction of "Hangman's return and constant presence causes Swerve to look past Dragon and ends up costing him his title" then I think the detour to Dragon is justified. 

[Shartnado]

Has there been any talk about how the ticket sales have been going for the show, now that some of the actual matches have been announced?

[Shartnado]

7 hours ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

I 1000% understand your stance. But he's almost surely exaggerating injuries and just using them (which is poor judgement in my opinion too) as story beats in the matches. He's on record as saying he loves to lie. There's nothing visually different about his matches except he straps up with tape. He still carries himself well physically when in non-in ring segments. Liek he still walks normally and does his coy smiles in his promos and laughs a lot. I've been around a ton of actually broken down dudes in the business (as have you I'm sure), and how he looks doesn't match up to what he's saying.

Regardless what side of the conversation we're all on, I think it's pretty universally agreed him using the fake injuries to the extent he does and the seizure sells... is poor judgement that takes us out of the moment, actually worrying for his real life health. But there's nothing beyond him in interviews (where he's doing a lotttttt of working) to indicate he's actually in serious poor health that we should worry about. We don't have to agree on which idea we like better and all that. But I just wish the fear for his health talk would dial back a bit. But I understand why it's at where it's at, it's Danielson's own words.
 

I defend a lot of TK actions and decisions. But his lack of flexibility is one thing that drives me nuts. He's super rigid in his booking formula and storytelling style. The only flexibility at all I have recognized is only born out of injuries. Had MJF not got hurt, Joe isn't getting a run. And Swerve may not have been getting a reign (yet). I have no doubt someone could get over Austin 3:16 levels and he'd not change his plans. Long term storytelling can be great especially with a well done payoff. But sometimes it's more satisfying to switch gears and go with what's hot. And there's no evidence he's willing to do that unless his hand is forced.

To be honest, I thought he was about to change his plans and shoot Ospreay to the top this quickly, at Forbidden Door and in this case, I was glad that didn't happen.

That being said, I think Jarrett for example should get something big at Wembley and while I don't think it should be a world title match, I do think he could use a feel-good moment with his newfound popularity. If that wasn't in the cards before, it certainly should be now!

[AxB]

3 hours ago, Shartnado said:

Has there been any talk about how the ticket sales have been going for the show, now that some of the actual matches have been announced?

As of yesterday, 2,500 sold in the previous 9 days. Total distributed 44,464 so far.

I haven't bought one yet, but I'm probably going to.

[Shartnado]

Just now, AxB said:

As of yesterday, 2,500 sold in the previous 9 days. Total distributed 44,464 so far.

I haven't bought one yet, but I'm probably going to.

What would decent seats cost at this point, if you were to get them?

[AxB]

2 minutes ago, Shartnado said:

What would decent seats cost at this point, if you were to get them?

The cheapest ones are at £27.25 (plus a £3.25 'Handling fee'). But there are pitch tickets fairly close to the ring for under £200. Closest to the ring are £797 on one side and £1562 on the other... not sure if it's extra to be on the hard cam, or in front of it so everyone's working towards you.

[Shartnado]

2 minutes ago, AxB said:

The cheapest ones are at £27.25 (plus a £3.25 'Handling fee'). But there are pitch tickets fairly close to the ring for under £200. Closest to the ring are £797 on one side and £1562 on the other... not sure if it's extra to be on the hard cam, or in front of it so everyone's working towards you.

Yikes! So 30 quid or £200 for @AxB?

[AxB]

Haven't decided yet. How about you? Coming over to the UK again?

[Stefanie Sparkleface]

11 hours ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

I 1000% understand your stance. But he's almost surely exaggerating injuries and just using them (which is poor judgement in my opinion too) as story beats in the matches. He's on record as saying he loves to lie. There's nothing visually different about his matches except he straps up with tape. He still carries himself well physically when in non-in ring segments. Liek he still walks normally and does his coy smiles in his promos and laughs a lot. I've been around a ton of actually broken down dudes in the business (as have you I'm sure), and how he looks doesn't match up to what he's saying.

Regardless what side of the conversation we're all on, I think it's pretty universally agreed him using the fake injuries to the extent he does and the seizure sells... is poor judgement that takes us out of the moment, actually worrying for his real life health. But there's nothing beyond him in interviews (where he's doing a lotttttt of working) to indicate he's actually in serious poor health that we should worry about. We don't have to agree on which idea we like better and all that. But I just wish the fear for his health talk would dial back a bit. But I understand why it's at where it's at, it's Danielson's own words.

I hate invoking this, because I don't believe Danielson is anywhere capable of doing this, but... very few people thought Chris Benoit's brain was essentially mashed potatoes until he did what he did. Telling me "oh he still wrestles and acts normally" is no indicator of his current brain health, especially considering he was benched for years. The brain doesn't exactly heal all that well. I live with the effects of my own head trauma and I haven't had a concussion in close to a decade. I can't even imagine what Danielson's been through, and I'm always going to worry about his health because we know way more about brain health than we did 20 years ago and we still know very, very little about it.

I just can't get into a match when in the back of my mind, I'm thinking "this guy might not be able to play with his kid if he takes one wrong bump". If it's all marketing and he's just working, it's doing the exact opposite of what it should be doing, which is making me want to see the match. Obviously that's just how it's hitting for me, maybe I'm in the minority, but if you're trying to sell a PPV main event, "I'm having health issues and might not be able to function properly" isn't the most enticing. If they want to do "I promised my daughter that I'd retire when she turned seven", and Swerve says "I'm going to make you hold yourself to that by taking away your career", without invoking any of the health stuff that they did, then that's worlds better of a sell and I'd be more interested.

Alas, that's not what they did. And, as such, I'm not.

[Log]

Honestly, the PPV main event was sold to me the second the ref hit three on the Owen finals. Bryan Danielson vs. Swerve Strickland in front of a huge crowd in a big ol' stadium is enough to get me to watch.

Really, that plus the fact that the show starts early in the afternoon for me is what is going to get me to part with my money.

[Gramsci]

I don't think it's comparable to the Benoit situation, Danielson has not taken steroids in his entire life. I think sometime we exaggerate about Bryan's health. I'm not saying that he is perfectly fine, but it is not much different from the state of health of the average wrestler.

His retirement in 2016 was completely forced, he was forced to retire by WWE decision and could have continued wrestling if he had been released. In a podcast with Edge and Christian, he talked about how he and everyone misinterpreted some of his brain test results.

Since his return in 2018, he has been cleared by every neurologist in the country, and he checks his brain health once a month, according to him. In one of the results of the scans he took on his brain one or two years ago, they certified that he had the oxygen levels in his brain of a 25-year-old brain without any head trauma. I am not a specialist on the subject, I am simply collecting some of the things that Danielson has been saying in recent years. It is okey that we worry about his health, just like we should worry about the rest of the wrestler's health. 

Regarding the injuries he's had, in the last year and a half he has referred to injuries where he has fractured some part of his body (labrum, arm, orbital bone..). He's said that he is aware that at 43 years old he is no longer able to have physically demanding matches every week on TV, and that his body is warning him. At no point he talks about him having concussions every time he gets in the ring. 

The guy is telling a story where he combines legitimate and kayfabe elements, and we don't really know where the line is that differentiates them, and that's where the magic of pro wrestling is. If he wasn't healthy, he wouldn't wrestle anymore, but he wants to keep wrestling until he dies or turns 80s or is old enough to quit. He invests a lot in his body and health, and that should put us at ease. So don't worry, whatever he does in his run as World Champion between All In and WrestleDream is not going to cause him to end up doing a Chris Benoit.

 

[Stefanie Sparkleface]

12 minutes ago, Gramsci said:

So don't worry, whatever he does in his run as World Champion between All In and WrestleDream is not going to cause him to end up doing a Chris Benoit.

I'm literally uncomfortable watching him wrestle period, especially when he seizure sells. It has nothing to do with the title, I just think it's ghoulish that he's being put into the situation when he's repeatedly said he doesn't want it. If he changed his mind, so be it, but the horse is out of the barn and I can't unsee all the issues he's discussed about his health.

I don't consider it "the magic of pro wrestling" when he does the seizure sell. The magic of pro wrestling, to me, is making me care about someone to the point where I want to see them succeed or fail based on their merits and personality. Just like practically any other genre of fiction. When things hit a certain line where people are being reckless with their health, I feel extremely uncomfortable with watching. It's why I can't really watch deathmatches. If people want to do them, great, but I don't have to pay to watch.

If you want to, go for it, but don't tell me not to worry. Like I said, we don't know enough about brain health to justify being so cavalier with the "oh he's fine!" stance.

[Log]

1 minute ago, Stefanie Sparkleface said:

I'm literally uncomfortable watching him wrestle period, especially when he seizure sells. It has nothing to do with the title, I just think it's ghoulish that he's being put into the situation when he's repeatedly said he doesn't want it. If he changed his mind, so be it, but the horse is out of the barn and I can't unsee all the issues he's discussed about his health.

I have to think that's changed at some point. I seriously doubt that they're in some situation where Danielson is being forced against his will into a title match/reign.

[YouHaveUntil5]

I know they don’t love short title runs, but I think after last night Danielson wins the belt, Hangman wins it at All Out so that Hangman can hold it over Swerve’s head that he has it now, and then Hangman/Darby 2 headlines Grand Slam. 

[NoFistsJustFlips]

It's perfectly reasonable to be uncomfortable watching Bryan wrestle. It's perfectly reasonable to be uncomfortable with the seizure sell stuff. It's also perfectly reasonable to be against forcing him into a role he doesn't want.

It's a little alarmist to compare him to Benoit. There's no evidence he should be considered capable of murder just because he's had concussions. There's been 1 Benoit. There's been 5,000 wrestlers with concussions. Even if you count the adjacent murders like Snuka & Billy Jack Haynes, Bryan's personality is nothing like those raving lunatics. No drug use. No documented rage or anger issues. The furthest thing from an intense personality.

Let's all try to be a little more reasonable with our stances here.

[Stefanie Sparkleface]

16 minutes ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

It's perfectly reasonable to be uncomfortable watching Bryan wrestle. It's perfectly reasonable to be uncomfortable with the seizure sell stuff. It's also perfectly reasonable to be against forcing him into a role he doesn't want.

It's a little alarmist to compare him to Benoit. There's no evidence he should be considered capable of murder just because he's had concussions. There's been 1 Benoit. There's been 5,000 wrestlers with concussions. Even if you count the adjacent murders like Snuka & Billy Jack Haynes, Bryan's personality is nothing like those raving lunatics. No drug use. No documented rage or anger issues. The furthest thing from an intense personality.

Let's all try to be a little more reasonable with our stances here.

The point sailed completely over your head.

What's the #1 thing anyone said about the Benoit murders? That they couldn't believe he would ever have done such a thing. Then his brain was looked at and how it had degenerated due to decades of physical abuse and... there you go.

One of the most common things we know about brain trauma is that it can change your personality. Bryan Danielson may not act like a raving lunatic NOW. How will he be in ten years? Fifteen? Will he even still be alive? Who cares! Let's let him dive out of the ring head-first or do some diving headbutts a few more times because he can do it now. Surely nothing bad will come of it... right?

Like I said, I can't help but not be concerned when I see someone who has had repeated head trauma do dangerous things with his head. Tsk tsk me and say I'm being unreasonable if you want, but I think wrestling would be a whole lot better if it ditched 99% of things that risked serious head trauma anyway.