Dynamite - 6/7/2023

[NoFistsJustFlips]

That's you re-contextualizing the promo to fit your point of view.

The music & the lights comment was a word for word rip off of what Cole said in a promo with Karrion Cross in NXT. They give you the cool music & the lights to make you look like a big deal. All they do for me to make me look like a big deal is ring the freakin bell. It pretty much murdered Cross dead because it was true. It was all smoke & mirrors for him then his ring work was bland as can be. That comment was just a clever callback not some 4D chess shot at TK for bringing Cole in and how he can't draw an audience.

You're getting out of hand with all of this. Like & dislike whoever you want. Just please I ask that when conversing back and forth with us, keep your opinions rooted in reality. That's all. Because that's some looney tunes shit up there lol.

[The Natural]

3 hours ago, Zakk_Sabbath said:

I'm tempted to agree - off topic, but here's a question for you: I haven't seen any of Walter on the main roster at all, has he wrestled Dolph?? I could see a guy like him attempting to out-do this

You really need to especially:

3. GUNTHER vs. Ricochet. Smackdown, 16th December 2022.

2. GUNTHER vs. Sheamus vs. Drew McIntyre. WrestleMania XXXIX. *****.

1. GUNTHER vs. Sheamus. Clash at the Castle 2022. *****.

[Dog]

6 hours ago, just drew said:

The absolute truth is I'm not sure there's a single worker today that has any discernible effect on ratings.

You've been insisting for weeks (months?) that Cole actively drags the ratings down. You in fact predicted his segment, the highest rated one from this week, would be the lowest rated one.

[Casey]

I’m pretty sure Adam Cole was only NXT champion for a few months into Dynamite’s debut, lost it sometime in early 2020, and then it was Finn Balor’s cross to bare until they moved to Tuesdays.

Of course I remember nothing about NXT or the pandemic era of WWE, but even if his stuff was still the focal point while he wasn’t champion, obviously the show as a whole did nothing to bring viewers back in if they only won the ratings war once out of the year plus they went head to head. You can’t lay all that blame at the feet of one man. NXT was set up to fail from day one in October 2019.

[Ramo2653]

Eh. Cole held the title from June 1st 2019 to July 1st 2020 losing the title to Keith Lee in the double title match (I remember the discourse being that they waited too long to crown Lee) that got spoiled when one of the Indus Sher guys posted a pic with Lee in the ring with confetti. Lee lost to Kross the next month but Kross got hurt then Finn won the title in September of 2020 and held it until Kross came back in April of 2021 with Kross losing to Joe.

Outside of the title picture, we had Cole vs Pat McAfee with Pat getting Burch, Oney and Holland as his goons for Wargames which then fed into the UE having their extended dissolution and Cole/Kyle having their feud the end it all which led to the birth of 2.0.

Cole (and the UE) were a focal point of NXT for most of that period. 

I don't care about ratings or anything because it's out of my hands and if a show gets canned then it gets canned. But if we're going to talk ratings, NXT was never going to beat AEW because the end game of NXT was getting to the main roster no matter what they say. Who wants to wrestle in a 200 (I'm sure the PC is less, but Full Sail was right) seat arena when you could tour the world in front of crowds 10-20 times bigger? AEW was the end game, it just looked different than anything NXT could put on week to week. It's like comparing Sinclair ROH or Impact to WWE, they're not the same and it's very noticeable when you watch.

I have some thoughts about the nonsense they're trying to pull with main roster folks appearing on NXT to pump ratings, but that's for a different thread.

[Steventon]

Cole and WALTER had an awesome match in EVOLVE that no one saw because it was just after Cole had signed with WWE. To my earlier comment about enjoying Cole best wheneating a beating, see that match. Dude gets creamed.

[Coletti]

5 hours ago, Steventon said:

Cole and WALTER had an awesome match in EVOLVE that no one saw because it was just after Cole had signed with WWE. To my earlier comment about enjoying Cole best wheneating a beating, see that match. Dude gets creamed.

The one where Cole was North American Champion? That was in Melrose, MA and indeed fucking great to see in person.

[Zakk_Sabbath]

13 hours ago, just drew said:

it doesn’t appear his audience from one show has followed him to the

Ironically enough, the reason why I chose the clip I did was to show how crazy the audiences for both shows go for him - who knows, it could be a case of the viewership overlapping moreso than 'following' him from one promotion to the other. In any case, all I'm trying to convey is: homeboy's definitely got his fans outside of our little world here. You can think he's the shits bell to bell all you want (your tastes are your tastes - no argument from me, you dig what you dig) but it's not like he's a Road Dogg kind of guy - if you take away the sing-along, there's still plenty of substance there IMO

 

Edit: Also, thank you to everyone who came through with WALTER recs - greatly appreciate you as always 

Edited June 10, 2023 by Zakk_Sabbath

[Just Adam Bay Bay]

1 hour ago, Zakk_Sabbath said:

Ironically enough, the reason why I chose the clip I did was to show how crazy the audiences for both shows go for him - who knows, it could be a case of the viewership overlapping moreso than 'following' him from one promotion to the other. In any case, all I'm trying to convey is: homeboy's definitely got his fans outside of our little world here. You can think he's the shits bell to bell all you want (your tastes are your tastes - no argument from me, you dig what you dig) but it's not like he's a Road Dogg kind of guy - if you take away the sing-along, there's still plenty of substance there IMO

 

Edit: Also, thank you to everyone who came through with WALTER recs - greatly appreciate you as always 

I can’t believe he’s being that obtuse with his arguments. Why isn’t he asking why Samoa Joe didn’t bring the audience that was watching him on Raw to AEW with him? Or Bryan Danielson and the over two million people a week that watched him on Smackdown? His little hate boner for Adam Cole really should just go away or be shut down since it’s not discussing anything in good faith or adding anything to a conversation (especially when it can easily be shot down like I just did). 

And to clear it up I don’t mean you Zakk clearly I mean the resident Adam Cole troll.

Edited June 10, 2023 by LF2

[Zakk_Sabbath]

5 minutes ago, LF2 said:

And to clear it up I don’t mean you Zakk clearly I mean the resident Adam Cole troll.

All good dude! No worries even if so - I don't mind being challenged, I spout pleeeeeenty of questionable ideas/opinions here on a daily basis lol

[Just Adam Bay Bay]

37 minutes ago, Zakk_Sabbath said:

All good dude! No worries even if so - I don't mind being challenged, I spout pleeeeeenty of questionable ideas/opinions here on a daily basis lol

I know for a fact I do too. But I don’t ever single a guy out for not bringing viewers when two other bigger name talents come from the same company and they don’t bring any extra eyes to the product either. Which I’ll apologize to my friend @The Natural as they know I love Bryan too, but as I pointed out he’s not brought many (or really any) of his fans from WWE to this company. 

[Just Dave]

4 hours ago, LF2 said:

I can’t believe he’s being that obtuse with his arguments. Why isn’t he asking why Samoa Joe didn’t bring the audience that was watching him on Raw to AEW with him? Or Bryan Danielson and the over two million people a week that watched him on Smackdown? His little hate boner for Adam Cole really should just go away or be shut down since it’s not discussing anything in good faith or adding anything to a conversation (especially when it can easily be shot down like I just did). 

And to clear it up I don’t mean you Zakk clearly I mean the resident Adam Cole troll.

Pretty bitchmade to call for me to be banned over an opinion regarding a wrestlers talent level. 

Edited June 10, 2023 by just drew

[Casey]

You know damn well your arguments about Cole aren’t entirely about “talent level”. It’s also about star power - which even someone like Danielson hasn’t been able to translate into new viewers - and more importantly, body shaming him, and the Young Bucks, at every turn.

But you’re clearly not the only one here that’s comfortable in doing that - I guess since Ric Flair did it decades ago, it’s okay, and the ones upset about it are bowing to woke culture or some bullshit. Like Ric Flair is an example that anyone should be following anyway, but whatever.

Cole, or the Young Bucks, aren’t my idealistic version of a pro wrestler, and I’m sure they aren’t for a lot of others either, but none of us post constantly about how unbelievable their shit is because he’s skinny or lacks muscle definition or whatever. Let’s just call it what it is, it’s pretty fucking toxic. You can shit on these wrestlers without resorting to real, personal attacks. Do better.

[Just Adam Bay Bay]

To echo something @Casey said I’m a fan of Ric Flair, but I’m also a fan of Adam Cole and The Young Bucks. 

I fully agree that just because something was considered acceptable in the 80’s doesn’t mean it should be four decades later. Times have changed, and I’m glad for that. 

Also I didn’t call for anyone to be banned. I said certain opinions should be toned down when opposite arguments can be made. Claiming an NXT guy isn’t a draw while propping up three talents that were on Raw and Smackdown (Bryan, Keith Lee, and Samoa Joe) that have brought a collective zero new viewers to AEW is counterproductive at best.

[For Great Justice]

I don’t see an issue with criticizing a pro wrestler’s physique so long as it isn’t done in an argumentative fashion or a personal attack on the person. A pro wrestler’s look is such a huge part of the presentation, and as such it’s fair game IMO. I don’t see anything wrong with saying you want your pro wrestlers looking more like Sid and less like Adam Cole, if that’s your preference.

And that’s my personal preference, too. I want more Hobbs on my TV, more Big Bill, and less Cole. I’ve been, to some degree, a body guy for as long as I’ve been a fan. And because that’s my preference I do indeed personally have a hard time taking Cole seriously when he works a hard hitting style.

Like I can watch Orange Cassidy do his thing all day, and I can watch Hangman crank dudes over the head with his “heavy hands” style for hours, but it would look silly for the former to try and work like the latter and that’s Cole to me.

[odessasteps]

Let’s not forget this is one of the homes of promoting HOSS~! wrestling 

[AxB]

Yeah, but coming on here every week to complain about Cole and the Bucks whether they are on the show or not , that’s not someone discussing the show as it was presented to them. That’s working a gimmick. And I don’t think anyone on here has ever, in 25+ years, ever talked about their great love of when fans think they have gimmicks.

[Matt D]

11 minutes ago, AxB said:

Yeah, but coming on here every week to complain about Cole and the Bucks whether they are on the show or not , that’s not someone discussing the show as it was presented to them. That’s working a gimmick. And I don’t think anyone on here has ever, in 25+ years, ever talked about their great love of when fans think they have gimmicks.

Except for Liddy. That guy was aces.

[Technico Support]

I remember WWF fans I knew in the 80s castigating Flair because he was “small.”

[Go2Sleep]

14 hours ago, For Great Justice said:

I don’t see an issue with criticizing a pro wrestler’s physique so long as it isn’t done in an argumentative fashion or a personal attack on the person. A pro wrestler’s look is such a huge part of the presentation, and as such it’s fair game IMO. I don’t see anything wrong with saying you want your pro wrestlers looking more like Sid and less like Adam Cole, if that’s your preference.

And that’s my personal preference, too. I want more Hobbs on my TV, more Big Bill, and less Cole. I’ve been, to some degree, a body guy for as long as I’ve been a fan.

This is probably gonna close the thread, but it's worth pointing out that if you replaced the men's names here with women, this would sound absolutely vile.

Also, I'm curious if the realism aspect goes both ways. Like do Keith Lee and Kevin Owens offend you for working a sprinty style as big dudes? Or is that believable while a smaller guy packing a punch isn't, as if guys like Conor McGregor and Floyd Mayweather don't exist? And if you're gonna say "Cole doesn't have the reputation of Conor or Floyd and his strikes aren't protected enough or technically believable to the point that they take me out of matches," then great, you've just presented a reasonable argument for not liking Adam Cole matches without body shaming.

Finally, you said it would be silly for Orange Cassidy to work a heavy hands style, when his finisher is literally a punch.

Edited June 12, 2023 by Go2Sleep

[Ingobernable]

I think there's a really important distinction to be made between thinking that people who look a certain way shouldn't be involved in wrestling and thinking that guys should probably wrestle a style that's consistent with their look. I don't tend to enjoy Adam Cole or his matches not because of his look per se, but because I consistently find there to be a disconnect between his overall vibe and the epic 50-50 style he's cultivated for himself; I don't even mind the style in and of itself. There is absolutely a place in wrestling for Cole and guys who look like him, but my view is that it's as a snivelling coward or a guy who takes beating after beating and never gives in. 

I do happen to think similarly of Keith Lee. I don't tend to enjoy his matches either (in both cases there are exceptions). I'd generally much rather see him wrestle a big-man style and occasionally drop in a jaw-dropping sequence when a match really needs it for the sake of impact than to maintain that sprint pace at a consistent level. Generally speaking I think that's true for all bigger dudes. So you're seven foot and can do a dropkick? Well it means less when the other guy puts you on your back if you're consistently doing it to yourself so I want to see it twice a year tops.   

I've always applied a basic test to the vast majority of guys - does an average ten-year-old think this professional fighter could beat their parent in a fight. That test has a lower bar to cross for someone who's jacked but, with the right presentation, can also be cleared by gymnasts and stuntmen, grapplers and technicians, as well as brawlers and snakes of different hues. This is probably still a bit of an old-fashioned view but hopefully a bit more nuanced that muscles=good. 

I'm aware that there's a few risks of someone who's lurked forever using their first post to jump in on a heated discussion like this but I genuinely think it's interesting - and in particular the point on Lee/Owens, who I don't think I'd necessarily stick together. 
 

[Matt D]

28 minutes ago, Ingobernable said:

I do happen to think similarly of Keith Lee. I don't tend to enjoy his matches either (in both cases there are exceptions). I'd generally much rather see him wrestle a big-man style and occasionally drop in a jaw-dropping sequence when a match really needs it for the sake of impact than to maintain that sprint pace at a consistent level.  

This is basically post-COVID Keith Lee and I think he's great this way. As a sympathetic human being I'd rather he wrestle how he wants and have all the health and fulfillment life offers but he's sure as hell wrestling how *I* want right now.

[Ingobernable]

12 minutes ago, Matt D said:

This is basically post-COVID Keith Lee and I think he's great this way. As a sympathetic human being I'd rather he wrestle how he wants and have all the health and fulfillment life offers but he's sure as hell wrestling how *I* want right now.

Well sure. I mean this is a good rule in general isn't it? Everyone can wrestle how they want to and how they find to be professionally rewarding and I can separately make up my mind if I like it or not. One doesn't have to preclude the other. 

[Stefanie Sparkleface]

3 hours ago, Ingobernable said:

I've always applied a basic test to the vast majority of guys - does an average ten-year-old think this professional fighter could beat their parent in a fight.
 

What if the ten-year-old has really mediocre parents?

[Zakk_Sabbath]

5 minutes ago, Sparkleface said:

What if the ten-year-old has really mediocre parents?

One of many reasons I am choosing to remain child-free for the moment - I'm not done disappointing my own parents yet