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June 2023 Wrestling Discussion


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3 hours ago, Greggulator said:

You know what? I don’t think you’re wrong. Their theme music and presentation en route to the ring both really stand out. I don’t think it’s the only reason but having the interactivity of both them really does help. A strong entrance really works for every wrestler who has one.

Agreed -  tangentially related thought, but IMO it's actually sort of (accidentally?) shrewd of Cole to really get behind pushing the catchphrase with his name in it over the last X years - whether you like his stuff or don't, he's never gonna get the bad faith "It's the 'YES!' that's over" charge levied against him.

Rollins always had a dope entrance on the main roster as long as I watched him, but anyone who saw him hc dance to the ring like a dork earlier in his career knows that it certainly took a lot of trial and error to get where he is - not knocking him for it or anything. 

FWIW, most of the issues I had with Rollins' time as World champion were promo-based, and it's almost an unfair opinion for me to have because in all likelihood, almost anyone they slotted in that role would have likely faced a similar uphill climb in that regard. Again, not knocking Seth Rollins (I haven't even seen a single match of his since the Fiend match in the cell with the asinine finish) but to me, he's just obviously not that guy - not a soul other than those writing his checks wanted 20 minutes of 'C'MAHN JAAAAHN' - stfu and do a falcon arrow or something 

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3 hours ago, Greggulator said:

Points to ponder:

Adam Cole and Seth Rollins are not liked by a majority of people here and elsewhere in the wrestling fandom community. 

Yet both are incredibly over with live audiences and have been for years.

They are doing something right.

So… what are they doing right? I am tossing out the question for a jumping off point because I think it is an interesting way to think about those two.

They both work a style that triggers an immediate "this guy sucks" reaction from older fans, no matter how good they are at executing that style (I'd say Rollins does it better than Cole). The problem then becomes less an issue of objectivity and more an issue of "backing down on previously stated opinions online." No one will admit it now, but AJ Styles got the same kind of reviews in the mid 2000s. I feel like Kenny Omega got it in the early 10s too. Ospreay and Ricochet certainly did. It takes lots and lots of great matches not to necessarily get people to admit they were wrong, but at least quietly shift to "this guy's alright even if it's not my cup of tea I guess." It's the other side of the coin for the people who begrudgingly came around on Cena in like 2015.

I think Rollins has gotten over the hump where he gets more positive reviews than negative now, even if he's the same wrestler he was 8 years ago. It took AJ a doing a New Japan run before he got his just due (even though his 05 match with Joe is one of the best in TNA history). Cole isn't there yet, but he doesn't have the body of work Rollins does either.

 

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1 hour ago, Go2Sleep said:

They both work a style that triggers an immediate "this guy sucks" reaction from older fans, no matter how good they are at executing that style (I'd say Rollins does it better than Cole). The problem then becomes less an issue of objectivity and more an issue of "backing down on previously stated opinions online." No one will admit it now, but AJ Styles got the same kind of reviews in the mid 2000s. I feel like Kenny Omega got it in the early 10s too. Ospreay and Ricochet certainly did. It takes lots and lots of great matches not to necessarily get people to admit they were wrong, but at least quietly shift to "this guy's alright even if it's not my cup of tea I guess." It's the other side of the coin for the people who begrudgingly came around on Cena in like 2015.

I think Rollins has gotten over the hump where he gets more positive reviews than negative now, even if he's the same wrestler he was 8 years ago. It took AJ a doing a New Japan run before he got his just due (even though his 05 match with Joe is one of the best in TNA history). Cole isn't there yet, but he doesn't have the body of work Rollins does either.

 

I actually don't think Rollins is quite the same wrestler he was even 3 or so years ago. He was very much a get all of his shit in kind of guy without much variation with the quality of the match tending to depend on how well his opponent could lead/lay things out. Over the last year or so it feels like he has been gradually breaking that habit and trying to play more for whatever role his match calls for. 

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My only issue with Cole is that a lot of his stuff in the ring doesn't work since he's a Jr. and he works a lot of heavyweights. The excessive NXT kickout bouts didn't help matters but he's not in a spot in AEW to have those kind of matches.

Outside of that, he's good IMO. Good promos, good character work(better as a heel), and is fun in stuff outside of wrestling (Chuggs 4 Life).

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1 hour ago, Ramo2653 said:

My only issue with Cole is that a lot of his stuff in the ring doesn't work since he's a Jr. and he works a lot of heavyweights. The excessive NXT kickout bouts didn't help matters but he's not in a spot in AEW to have those kind of matches.

Outside of that, he's good IMO. Good promos, good character work(better as a heel), and is fun in stuff outside of wrestling (Chuggs 4 Life).

Interestingly, I have similar yet different thoughts on Rollins - where you think Cole needs to work more like a Jr., I think Rollins continued working too much like a Jr. when he initially turned heel on the Shield - I haven't seen any of his most recent heel run, but my earlier complaints on his long, crappy promos aside, has he slowed it down in the ring at all?

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Obvious height comparison joke aside, I never realized how much Cole facially resembles famed Hollywood actor and definite non-cult member Tom Cruise. On a different and also 100% legally distinct note, happy pride again to those here who celebrate!

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4 hours ago, Eivion said:

I actually don't think Rollins is quite the same wrestler he was even 3 or so years ago. He was very much a get all of his shit in kind of guy without much variation with the quality of the match tending to depend on how well his opponent could lead/lay things out. Over the last year or so it feels like he has been gradually breaking that habit and trying to play more for whatever role his match calls for. 

As someone who liked his AOTF stuff, I don't think he's ever been that much of a GMSI guy in WWE. He debuted in a trio where everyone picked their spots well and maximized all their values. His singles heel run had him cut out most of his coolest moves (even the stomp for a while). The buckle/barricade bomb and superplex falcon arrow combo (although this would've been fine as a super finisher) overstayed their welcome, but is that any worse than Cena trying the make the springboard stunner happen for way too long? WWE style is all about making sure the fans who paid to be there get to see you do your thing. Most of the matches where he is throwing out a ton of moves is because it's exactly what the match calls for, either because it's main event level or against someone the crowd wants to see him go all out against (thinking of his matches against Danielson, Finn, KO, AJ, etc).

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Say what you will about Rollins' cringey presentation and promos, but he's always been a legitimately good wrestler. He's especially capable of delivering in main event situations and can put on something entertaining with just about anybody. Cole was always just a guy to me on the indies and I'm not sure if he or Fish were the least compelling members of UE. I know it wasn't his fault, but those overdone epics he had with Gargano and others during his prime NXT run further eroded any interest I had in him.

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Cole's biggest accomplishment was helping the Bucks perfect their trios formula in PWG, but then AJ and Omega stepped into that spot and were arguably better partners than he ever was

Cole/Bucks vs. The Shield would have been bananas, but not because Cole and Seth match up well

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18 hours ago, Greggulator said:

Points to ponder:

Adam Cole and Seth Rollins are not liked by a majority of people here and elsewhere in the wrestling fandom community. 

Yet both are incredibly over with live audiences and have been for years.

They are doing something right.

So… what are they doing right? I am tossing out the question for a jumping off point because I think it is an interesting way to think about those two.

I'd rather watch Seth Rollins than Adam Cole. Cole has never done anything great like Shield Seth alone. Shield Seth is best Seth. I HATED Cole's NXT Championship reign especially the 2019 trilogy with Johnny Gargano and the Worlds Collide 2020 match vs. Tommaso Ciampa.

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I'm feeling a little grumpy lately. Not grumpy enough to respond to Meltzer's juggling post with a lengthy Segunda Caida essay he'd never see in the first place or anything, but I do feel like doubling down on certain thoughts. A number of disagreements about wrestling stumble towards ideas of "heresy," which, is, of course, patently ridiculous considering how unimportant wrestling is in the grand scheme of things. This goes back to the self-awareness bit, but a lot of people who make the argument can't properly distance themselves from the situation and conflate a lot of things, including kayfabe and protecting the business with notions of artistic quality. When you get former wrestlers or people associated with current wrestlers, it also becomes about justifying their own identities (direct or indirect).

This is DVDVR and not 2015 PWO, but I toiled through countless arguments about working hard vs working smart, about storytelling vs athleticism, about fostering a suspension of disbelief vs letting your audience in on the act, leading the audience vs letting the audience lead you, wrestling for the match vs wrestling for yourself, etc. I think a lot of that was internalized and you see it in some things like Neo-Bret-ism, but I also think the rise of social media and of having to ride the immediate moment, means that a lot of these discussions don't happen to the same level that they used to.

My belief is that wrestling is about manipulating emotions as opposed to channeling athleticism and that it's far more impressive to do more with less than to do a lot with more. Athleticism/spots/creativity are means and not the end and often "progress" just makes the end goal harder, not easier. In a perfect world, the very best matches should be both worked smart and worked hard but sometimes those things actually contradict as wrestling isn't math. We've ended up in a wrestling dystopia where working hard is valued so much more than working smart by most of the internet. Sometimes, I overcompensate before that, because no man is an island, etc., but I both try to be aware of it and have good intentions around it. Sometimes it's harder than others though.

Edited by Matt D
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Podcasts tend to the clickbaity. Even the ones that aren't, clickbait newz sites will try to scrape any bit of controversy they can decontextualise and overhype. But in a world where everyone who wants a podcast has a podcast, anyone trying to stick out and actually get listeners, the fastest way to do that is to scandalise.

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Shout-out to Billie Starkz, who was her school's valedictorian on top of the whole wrestling thing and will go to college on a full ride. Spectacular.

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2 hours ago, Pete said:

Shout-out to Billie Starkz, who was her school's valedictorian on top of the whole wrestling thing and will go to college on a full ride. Spectacular.

She's not been working a light schedule either. According to cagematch she's wrestled 66 matches this year, which puts her 26th in the world on their listing, and had 129 matches in 2022, 58th on their list.

Fuminori Abe needs to relax. He wrestled the most matches in 2020, 2022, and leads 2023 so far. Second most in 2021.

Edited by elizium
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