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May 2023 Wrestling Talk


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2 hours ago, zendragon said:

Everyone knows you don’t step to ron

re: Hogan v Tyson the guy who trained Hogan was pretty legit so I always kinda wonder what shoot skills Hogan had? He knew enough to choke out Richard Beltzer I wonder if he knew enough to think he could do the same to Tyson

Tyson would punch Hogan in the gut and the Hulkster would be shitting blood for the next year. 

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17 hours ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

I can see Vince wanting to be in the Tyson business with discernible strategy for him. So the best he probably think of his champion at the time trying to actually fight Mike Tyson.
 

 

6 hours ago, Mister TV said:

Tyson would punch Hogan in the gut and the Hulkster would be shitting blood for the next year. 

Seriously.  Vince's absolute lack of awareness of anything outside wrestling, and his worship of size above all else, will never fail to astound me.  This is the guy who didn't know who Frank Shamrock was and insisted he could have taken "that midget."  Of course he thought 6'5"ish Hogan and 6'10"ish Nash would have had a chance against Tyson.  Nash, meanwhile, continues to be the realest dude, like "fuck you Vince that guy will fuck me up."

Edited by Technico Support
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14 hours ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Maybe this is bullshit, but it does have some logic to it (I will explain): According to Nash, Vince brought him into the office and wanted him to box Tyson in Central Park when he (Nash) was WWF Champion. Then, when he rightly refused to do that cause that's fucking ridiculous, Vince told him he would be dropping the belt to Bret at Survivor Series.

I can see Vince in his desperation feeling like Tyson being fresh out of prison would generate enough buzz to do a huge buyrate especially with him being set up to challenge for a world title the next year. I mean the LT thing worked for what it was. However, this would be a much bigger than that. Add in that eventually Tyson did have a tuneup fight (on his way to fighting for a version of the world heavyweight title) with Buster Mathis Jr. on Fox for their short lived boxing series right around the time WWF did their replay for WrestleMania XI on Fox. That Buster Mathis Jr. fight did insane numbers. I can see Vince wanting to be in the Tyson business with discernible strategy for him. So the best he probably think of his champion at the time trying to actually fight Mike Tyson.

That said, even if they decided to work it, Tyson wasn't going to do anything at the time for less than eight figures. When he got into the hot water based on what happened in the 2nd Holyfield fight, he had to humble himself and accept a more reasonable amount to work with WWF. That wasn't going to happen in 1995 especially with Don King at the reins. By the time Tyson got out of prison, the McNeeley travesty, the Mathis Jr. tuneup, and IIRC what ended being his second destruction of Frank Bruno with this time Bruno coming in as champion were all pretty much set up. So the earliest he would have been able to do anything is at WrestleMania XII. 

As far as Ali goes, I just watched the Ron Lyle fight from 1975. Sadly, you can tell Ali isn't as quick on the draw cognitively even then especially compared to 60s when he was truly the Louisville Lip. If the you watch first episode of the Ken Burns' doc on Ali which covers all the up to the Liston fights (the first one where Liston quits and the controversial phantom punch in the rematch), you would have believed this dude would have been the biggest draw in pro wrestling history had he not had those sponsors in Louisville that funded his foray into pro boxing. He was that excellent in terms of athleticism and that charismatic.

Seriously, I watch some Georgia stuff every now and again. For the Flair-Butch Reed program, they brought in Earnie Shavers. I mean that's a super credible name cause he had the reputation as one of the hardest punchers ever. However, poor Flair (and Ole) cannot get much out of him. It was the same with Frazier during the Million Dollar Challenge for Starrcade 1984. Joe, just like Earnie, made his living knocking people the fuck out and not as an orator. All I can imagine is Flair going at it with 1960s Ali, and it just being the goddamn best thing ever.

After thinking about it, I wonder if this was some sort of test Vince tossed out there to see what Nash's response would be. Like if Nash said "fuck yeah I'll knock him out" that would show Vince he's loyal or something and would do whatever Vince asks of him, it seems like some sort of executive bullshit Vince might have read in a magazine or copied from some other asshole he knew. I'm sure if Vince gave Bret the same spiel that Bret would be totally into it and would have told Vince he'd "wrap Tyson up like a pretzel".

Edited by Mister TV
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14 minutes ago, AxB said:

Vince probably thought Hogan could take Bret in a shoot. 

What "shooting" skills did Bret have? Everything I've seen or heard about when it comes to "The Dungeon" was that people willingly allowed Stu to put them in holds. While I'd have my money on Bret in a legit fight, Hulk was trained by Hiro Matsuda and was aware enough to sprawl and front face lock Verne Gagne in their scuffle, also Hulk would totally go for Bret's eyes if shit went down.

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Just now, Mister TV said:

What "shooting" skills did Bret have? Everything I've seen or heard about when it comes to "The Dungeon" was that people willingly allowed Stu to put them in holds. While I'd have my money on Bret in a legit fight, Hulk was trained by Hiro Matsuda and was aware enough to sprawl and front face lock Verne Gagne in their scuffle, also Hulk would totally go for Bret's eyes if shit went down.

AFAIK Bret was a pretty good amateur wrestler when he was younger. 

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Just now, Elsalvajeloco said:

AFAIK Bret was a pretty good amateur wrestler when he was younger. 

He was one of the top wrestlers in Alberta as a junior though he stopped wrestling when he dropped out of college to become a pro. How much that means in legit fighting skills is another topic.

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4 hours ago, Mister TV said:

After thinking about it, I wonder if this was some sort of test Vince tossed out there to see what Nash's response would be. Like if Nash said "fuck yeah I'll knock him out" that would show Vince he's loyal or something and would do whatever Vince asks of him, it seems like some sort of executive bullshit Vince might have read in a magazine or copied from some other asshole he knew. I'm sure if Vince gave Bret the same spiel that Bret would be totally into it and would have told Vince he'd "wrap Tyson up like a pretzel".

It's a little from Column A and a little from Column B imo, which is why I had to preface it.

Tyson was one of the last major heavyweights who weighed regularly below 220 pounds and was below six feet tall. The era just before Tyson became a pro is when you had a major influx of guys who you would think are probably more suited playing defensive end in the NFL or forward in the NBA than the boxing ring. There was this prevailing myth among hardcore boxing fans and pundits that smaller guys like Tyson were becoming more antiquated especially by the the time the backhalf of his career came. So it wouldn't have been just Vince who thought bigger means better.

Now that said, Vince most likely would have saw how even a slightly faded Tyson out of prison with mediocre to subpar trainers and terrible training habits was folding up these bigger guys. I think he just wanted to gauge Nash's reaction. 

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I’m pulling from memory here.  But I vaguely recall a quote from Hogan that goes a long way back in regards to a match/fight with Tyson.

Something along the lines of:  Tyson wouldn’t win because “he would never hit me that many times.”  Baffling.
 

I want to say it was from my local newspaper.  But at this point it might have been an Apter mag for all the good my memory is.  

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1 hour ago, Mister TV said:

What "shooting" skills did Bret have? Everything I've seen or heard about when it comes to "The Dungeon" was that people willingly allowed Stu to put them in holds. While I'd have my money on Bret in a legit fight, Hulk was trained by Hiro Matsuda and was aware enough to sprawl and front face lock Verne Gagne in their scuffle, also Hulk would totally go for Bret's eyes if shit went down.

I really wish something like Grapplers Quest or NAGA existed in the 60s and 70s so we could have footage of guys like Stu Hart or Hiro Matsuda actually doing competitive submission grappling

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I dunno what I want to see more:

Bret vs Tyson in a worked shoot

Or the promos leading up to it with Tyson threatening to piss down Stu Hart's eye sockets and molest their wrestling bear and Bret responding by calling him a big stupid dummy and speculating that he's not even a jam up kind of guy.

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I don't know how much actual fighting skills Bret has but it seems he's never been afraid to pull up whether it's with Shawn or Hunter and I'd imagine that'd also be the case with Hogan. And then Hogan always comes across as weak the way he lies and never owns up to anything.  I'd say I'd have to take Bret if they ever legit threw down. 

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3 hours ago, Brandon Bones said:

I’m pulling from memory here.  But I vaguely recall a quote from Hogan that goes a long way back in regards to a match/fight with Tyson.

Something along the lines of:  Tyson wouldn’t win because “he would never hit me that many times.”  Baffling.
 

I want to say it was from my local newspaper.  But at this point it might have been an Apter mag for all the good my memory is.  

Well, he's technically right. Hogan would be rocking back and forth, anesthetized in the corner like poor Marvis Frazier after one punch.

The one thing weirdly both Hogan and Tyson have in common is fighting (or accidently assaulting) folks who were high on drugs. In the case of Tyson, it was beating the absolute shit out of Mitch "Blood" Green outside a nightclub while Mitch was high on PCP. Then, in Hogan's case, it was the whole Richard Belzer thing with Richard allegedly being coked out. The 1980s...a fun time for all. 

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6 hours ago, Brandon Bones said:

But at this point it might have been an Apter mag for all the good my memory is.  

I have been trying to think about this since yesterday but I remember there was one (I want to say Inside Wrestling) which did some sort of kayfabe story on a Tyson vs Hogan match - I want to say it was one of those situations where it originally ran when Hogan was still with the WWF, and they re-published it around WM XIV? I have to research this further but we may be thinking of something similar. I was young but I vividly remember it opening with Hogan getting off the elevator at Titan and Vince greeting him 'Monster!' No idea why that's stuck with me.

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17 minutes ago, Zakk_Sabbath said:

I have been trying to think about this since yesterday but I remember there was one (I want to say Inside Wrestling) which did some sort of kayfabe story on a Tyson vs Hogan match - I want to say it was one of those situations where it originally ran when Hogan was still with the WWF, and they re-published it around WM XIV? I have to research this further but we may be thinking of something similar. I was young but I vividly remember it opening with Hogan getting off the elevator at Titan and Vince greeting him 'Monster!' No idea why that's stuck with me.

It was a Superstar Dream Match in Wrestling Superstars.

 

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I don’t think Hogan was wheezing while walking yet in 1993 like he was in 1997 when he claimed another wrestler wasn’t in good enough shape to go over him, but he was no youngun either. I’m taking Bret in whatever kind of real fight it is from boxing to wrestling in 1993. I’m taking a few people who weren’t what we call shooters. Hogan was pussyass bitch. Who has to be a shooter to deal with him? 

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I don’t remember that but I don’t doubt it. For a while there his column was some kind of trip. It’s actually amazing that he’s managed to live it down. I’m proud of him for doing so though. He doesn’t deserve to be judged for what flew out of his mouth after...you know. 

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18 hours ago, GuerrillaMonsoon said:

I dunno what I want to see more:

Bret vs Tyson in a worked shoot

Or the promos leading up to it with Tyson threatening to piss down Stu Hart's eye sockets and molest their wrestling bear and Bret responding by calling him a big stupid dummy and speculating that he's not even a jam up kind of guy.

“Who are you to doubt Buster Douglas”

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