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May 2023 Wrestling Talk


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3 minutes ago, Sparkleface said:

I'm not much of a match ranker or rater but I do enjoy that one. Really, anything that involves two folks just clubbing each other is fine by me.

I also bought the going for pinfalls that Technico mentions above as a detriment as a consequence of a grueling match. Twenty minutes in, these guys instinctually went for pinfalls to try and catch a quick one and end the match, their brains clouded by pain and fatigue.

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25 minutes ago, SirSmUgly said:

My next hot take that way fewer people will agree with is that Garvin/Valentine at the 1990 Rumble is one of the greatest WWE matches that no one ever talks about.

I totally agree. From Page 34 of King of New York:

"This fight is a lost classic with the intensity of a title match."

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Garvin/Valentine had a 1986 JCP feel to it, and I’m not just imagining that because it had Tony Schiavone on commentary. When Garvin hit him with the death blow the crowd even let out a JCP “OoOoOoOoO” noise like they used to do. 

How about The Rock n Roll Express vs The British Bulldogs? That gets unfairly lumped in with washed up vs washed up matches but that’s not what it was. I agree that the match could have been better but not because anybody was that washed. The Rock n Roll Express were playing off the crowd like they always do. For whatever reason, that crowd was just flat. So they just mat wrestled for 30 minutes instead which was still pretty good. Ricky Morton’s not clean shaved looked like a ran over pile of dog shit I will admit that. 

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6 minutes ago, BloodyChamp said:

Garvin/Valentine had a 1986 JCP feel to it, and I’m not just imagining that because it had Tony Schiavone on commentary. When Garvin hit him with the death blow the crowd even let out a JCP “OoOoOoOoO” noise like they used to do. 

How about The Rock n Roll Express vs The British Bulldogs? That gets unfairly lumped in with washed up vs washed up matches but that’s not what it was. I agree that the match could have been better but not because anybody was that washed. The Rock n Roll Express were playing off the crowd like they always do. For whatever reason, that crowd was just flat. So they just mat wrestled for 30 minutes instead which was still pretty good. Ricky Morton’s not clean shaved looked like a ran over pile of dog shit I will admit that. 

Kansas City/Central States was deader than dead as a territory and neither team really meant anything in that area anyway, so it was an odd place to run that match. Run it anywhere else and the crowd would have been fine.

Edited by Sparkleface
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21 minutes ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

I'll also add that the Garvin and Tully feud is amazing stuff.  

The taped fist matchbfrom the Bash commetcial tape is a personal fave. Garvin just lays into Tully hard. I thinkbthe only major 86 spring feud that didn't get a match on that tape was Wahoo/Garvin

James

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1 hour ago, SirSmUgly said:

I also bought the going for pinfalls that Technico mentions above as a detriment as a consequence of a grueling match. Twenty minutes in, these guys instinctually went for pinfalls to try and catch a quick one and end the match, their brains clouded by pain and fatigue.

Savage trying to pin Yokozuna in the Royal Rumble

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1 minute ago, Dolphman 3000 said:

Savage trying to pin Yokozuna in the Royal Rumble

Which meant he knocked him down. By definition, he knocked him down, which meant the subsequent angle with Duggan about how Yoko had never been knocked down was absolutely ridiculous.

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Savage eliminated himself from the Rumble once, so I can accept that he'd go for a pinfall because he wasn't thinking straight.

It's how ugly his elimination looks that makes the whole thing poop.

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16 minutes ago, Matt D said:

Which meant he knocked him down. By definition, he knocked him down, which meant the subsequent angle with Duggan about how Yoko had never been knocked down was absolutely ridiculous.

Actually Savage moved and Yokozuna ate shit on the turnbuckle and fell over, so Duggan was technically correct

 

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23 minutes ago, SirSmUgly said:

Savage eliminated himself from the Rumble once, so I can accept that he'd go for a pinfall because he wasn't thinking straight.

It's how ugly his elimination looks that makes the whole thing poop.

I'd buy it as muscle memory since he hit the elbow on him before the elimination. How many times did he go "drop elbow -> pin opponent"? He drops the elbow on Yoko, his body is immediately scrambling for the pin because that's what he's done hundreds of times before.

Now why did he do the elbow drop in a battle royale? That would be him not thinking straight lol

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11 minutes ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

was Andre The Giant really "undefeated for 15 years" ?  Obviously the "never been slammed" thing was total bullshit. 

Full disclosure: I copied this off of an Administrator of “Kayfabe Board” but this’ll give you stuff to track down on Cagematch if you like 

Spoiler

Andre the Giant Losses 
- via Pinfall / Submission / Knockout or Technical Knockout ... Clean Losses 

Note: Each loss is numbered. The sequence of numbers lists the historical order of clean losses in the style of Mixed-Martial-Arts (MMA), Boxing and other competitive combat sports. Clear-cut definitive wins and losses are defined by the way athletic commissions, sports news agencies, and legitimate sports authorities define them. If the loss is in a handicap match, obviously, no legitimate athletic commission would sanction such a contest, but the loss is recorded here (and preceded by an asterisk instead of a number) due to any significant conjecture regarding a disputed claim or longstanding rumor surrounding the match. There were numerous disqualification losses which, obviously, do not count as clean losses and are not listed because they were not disputed nor were they significant in any way (other to build a fictional storyline). 

England - working as "Jean Ferre" 

1) June 7, 1969: Kendo Nagasaki (Peter Thornley) beat Jean Ferre by technical knockout (TKO) in Hanley, England.. 

2) October 2, 1969: Kendo Nagasaki (Peter Thornley) again beat Jean Ferre by technical knockout (TKO), this time in Brierley Hill, England.. 

* October 16, 1969: Andy Robbins beat Jean Ferre in a 2-out-of-3 falls match. It is safe to say that at least one of these losses were by disqualification. Were both falls lost by disqualification? More than likely, which is why we have the asterisk preceding this note, just like the next two losses, both of which were handicap matches and can't be considered legitimate. 
(Remember that the term "legitimate" is used loosely here, as no legitimate athletic commission or sports organization would ever sanction any sort of "handicap match" or 2-on-1 contest. This is taking into consideration the premise of wrestling being presented to the public as a sport.) 

* Date (in 1969) and Location Unknown: Tibor Szakacs & Gwynn Davies beat Jean Ferre in a handicap match.. 

* Date (in 1969) and Location Unknown: Gwynn Davies & Albert Wall beat Jean Ferre in a handicap match..

Japan - working as "Monster Roussimoff" ...

3) January 14, 1970: Strong Kobayashi beat Monster Roussimoff via pinfall in Oita, Japan.. 

Iraq - working as "Monster Roussimoff" ... 

4) January 1971: Andre, working as Monster Roussimoff, lost to Sheik Adnan el-Kaissey in Baghdad, Iraq via pinfall.. 

5) January 1971: Andre, as Monster Roussimoff, lost, again, to Sheik Adnan el-Kaissey in Kuit, Iraq via pinfall.. 

United States - working as "The Polish Giant" Jean Ferre... 

6) January 22, 1972: Baron Von Raschke beat "The Polish Giant" Jean Ferre in Detroit, in what was Andre's first pinfall loss on U.S. soil.. 

Japan - working as "Monster Roussimoff" ... 

7) April 27, 1972: Andre lost to Karl Gotch in Nagoya, Japan via pinfall... 

😎 April 30, 1972: Andre lost to Karl Gotch in Tokyo, Japan via pinfall... 

9) May 6, 1972: Andre lost to Strong Kobayashi in the fourth IWA World Series Final in Morioka, Japan via pinfall.. 

10) May 31, 1972: Andre lost to Don Leo Jonathan via pinfall (though some dispute this and claim it was via DQ) in Montreal, Quebec Canada... 

11) December 18, 1972: Andre lost to Killer Kowalski via pinfall; Quebec City... 

12) February 10, 1974: Andre lost to The Sheik when the referee stopped the match "due to injury" (thus, the equivalent of a referee stoppage due to a "tko" in Mixed Martial Arts or boxing) in Toronto, Ontario Canada.. (some reports have the date as February 17th).. 

13) October 7, 1976: Andre lost to Antonio Inoki via technical knockout (TKO) when the referee stopped the match; Tokyo, Japan... 

* April 5, 1977: Andre lost to Southern Champion Jerry Lawler via count-out (being out of the ring longer than it takes the referee to count to 10 or 20, depending on the particular rules in a given promotion) in Louisville, KY.. At the time, it was implied to have been a pinfall loss in wrestling magazines edited by Bill Apter, which infuriated Andre's booking agent, Vince McMahon Sr. Lawler would confirm, decades later in his book, that it was by count-out and not by pin, but it caused a big commotion at the time... 

* March 5, 1978: Andre the Giant and Roy Welch lost to Ron Garvin via pinfall in a handicap match at a TV Taping in Knoxville, TN (However the footage of the match gets cut off before the end..) This was repeated at the TV Tapings held at the Freedom Hall in Johnson City, TN, with Scott Armstrong confirming this.. 

14) February 12, 1984: Andre lost to UWA Champion El Canek via pinfall in a 2-out-of-3 falls match at a UWA show; Naucalpan, Mexico... 

15) June 17, 1986: Andre lost to Antonio Inoki via submission (armbar) in Nagoya, Japan; New Japan Pro Wrestling. This was Andre's only submission loss.. 

16) March 29, 1987: Andre lost to WWF Champion Hulk Hogan via pinfall at WrestleMania 3 in Pontiac, MI...  

17) July 3, 1988: Andre lost to Hulk Hogan in a cage match at WrestleFest '88 in Milwaukee, WI; (Hogan exited the cage to win)... 

18) June 8, 1989 - Flint, MI: Hillbilly Jim beat Andre the Giant via pinfall. Sources have been checked and double checked repeatedly and it appears to be legit; Jim went on to win 7 more times but it was via DQ..

19) July 28, 1989 - Las Vegas, NV: Ultimate Warrior beat Andre the Giant via pinfall.. 

20) 1989: Intercontinental Champion Ultimate Warrior pinned Andre at least 9 times in the autumn during a house show tour. Some sources list 48 times (we list 48)...

Again, this is a sheer copy and paste from a google search. All the hard work is from CCG, an Administrator of a forum entitled “Kayfabe Board”

Edited by Octopus
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6 minutes ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

was Andre The Giant really "undefeated for 15 years" ?  Obviously the "never been slammed" thing was total bullshit. 

In WWE singles I don't think he was ever beaten clean, but prior to Mania III he lost clean to Inoki in Japan, El Canek in Mexico and Killer Kowalski and Don Leo Jonathan in Canada. And then from 1970-1972 in Japan he lost to a bunch of people during his initial tours of the country.

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Such a shocker, seeing Super Cena squashed like that by Brock Lesnar for Cena's WWE World Heavyweight Championship at WWE SummerSlam 2014. One of my favourite matches. We also got this from it:

4sCtgB4.jpg

Edited by The Natural
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13 hours ago, Octopus said:

Full disclosure: I copied this off of an Administrator of “Kayfabe Board” but this’ll give you stuff to track down on Cagematch if you like 

  Reveal hidden contents

Andre the Giant Losses 
- via Pinfall / Submission / Knockout or Technical Knockout ... Clean Losses 

Note: Each loss is numbered. The sequence of numbers lists the historical order of clean losses in the style of Mixed-Martial-Arts (MMA), Boxing and other competitive combat sports. Clear-cut definitive wins and losses are defined by the way athletic commissions, sports news agencies, and legitimate sports authorities define them. If the loss is in a handicap match, obviously, no legitimate athletic commission would sanction such a contest, but the loss is recorded here (and preceded by an asterisk instead of a number) due to any significant conjecture regarding a disputed claim or longstanding rumor surrounding the match. There were numerous disqualification losses which, obviously, do not count as clean losses and are not listed because they were not disputed nor were they significant in any way (other to build a fictional storyline). 

England - working as "Jean Ferre" 

1) June 7, 1969: Kendo Nagasaki (Peter Thornley) beat Jean Ferre by technical knockout (TKO) in Hanley, England.. 

2) October 2, 1969: Kendo Nagasaki (Peter Thornley) again beat Jean Ferre by technical knockout (TKO), this time in Brierley Hill, England.. 

* October 16, 1969: Andy Robbins beat Jean Ferre in a 2-out-of-3 falls match. It is safe to say that at least one of these losses were by disqualification. Were both falls lost by disqualification? More than likely, which is why we have the asterisk preceding this note, just like the next two losses, both of which were handicap matches and can't be considered legitimate. 
(Remember that the term "legitimate" is used loosely here, as no legitimate athletic commission or sports organization would ever sanction any sort of "handicap match" or 2-on-1 contest. This is taking into consideration the premise of wrestling being presented to the public as a sport.) 

* Date (in 1969) and Location Unknown: Tibor Szakacs & Gwynn Davies beat Jean Ferre in a handicap match.. 

* Date (in 1969) and Location Unknown: Gwynn Davies & Albert Wall beat Jean Ferre in a handicap match..

Japan - working as "Monster Roussimoff" ...

3) January 14, 1970: Strong Kobayashi beat Monster Roussimoff via pinfall in Oita, Japan.. 

Iraq - working as "Monster Roussimoff" ... 

4) January 1971: Andre, working as Monster Roussimoff, lost to Sheik Adnan el-Kaissey in Baghdad, Iraq via pinfall.. 

5) January 1971: Andre, as Monster Roussimoff, lost, again, to Sheik Adnan el-Kaissey in Kuit, Iraq via pinfall.. 

United States - working as "The Polish Giant" Jean Ferre... 

6) January 22, 1972: Baron Von Raschke beat "The Polish Giant" Jean Ferre in Detroit, in what was Andre's first pinfall loss on U.S. soil.. 

Japan - working as "Monster Roussimoff" ... 

7) April 27, 1972: Andre lost to Karl Gotch in Nagoya, Japan via pinfall... 

😎 April 30, 1972: Andre lost to Karl Gotch in Tokyo, Japan via pinfall... 

9) May 6, 1972: Andre lost to Strong Kobayashi in the fourth IWA World Series Final in Morioka, Japan via pinfall.. 

10) May 31, 1972: Andre lost to Don Leo Jonathan via pinfall (though some dispute this and claim it was via DQ) in Montreal, Quebec Canada... 

11) December 18, 1972: Andre lost to Killer Kowalski via pinfall; Quebec City... 

12) February 10, 1974: Andre lost to The Sheik when the referee stopped the match "due to injury" (thus, the equivalent of a referee stoppage due to a "tko" in Mixed Martial Arts or boxing) in Toronto, Ontario Canada.. (some reports have the date as February 17th).. 

13) October 7, 1976: Andre lost to Antonio Inoki via technical knockout (TKO) when the referee stopped the match; Tokyo, Japan... 

* April 5, 1977: Andre lost to Southern Champion Jerry Lawler via count-out (being out of the ring longer than it takes the referee to count to 10 or 20, depending on the particular rules in a given promotion) in Louisville, KY.. At the time, it was implied to have been a pinfall loss in wrestling magazines edited by Bill Apter, which infuriated Andre's booking agent, Vince McMahon Sr. Lawler would confirm, decades later in his book, that it was by count-out and not by pin, but it caused a big commotion at the time... 

* March 5, 1978: Andre the Giant and Roy Welch lost to Ron Garvin via pinfall in a handicap match at a TV Taping in Knoxville, TN (However the footage of the match gets cut off before the end..) This was repeated at the TV Tapings held at the Freedom Hall in Johnson City, TN, with Scott Armstrong confirming this.. 

14) February 12, 1984: Andre lost to UWA Champion El Canek via pinfall in a 2-out-of-3 falls match at a UWA show; Naucalpan, Mexico... 

15) June 17, 1986: Andre lost to Antonio Inoki via submission (armbar) in Nagoya, Japan; New Japan Pro Wrestling. This was Andre's only submission loss.. 

16) March 29, 1987: Andre lost to WWF Champion Hulk Hogan via pinfall at WrestleMania 3 in Pontiac, MI...  

17) July 3, 1988: Andre lost to Hulk Hogan in a cage match at WrestleFest '88 in Milwaukee, WI; (Hogan exited the cage to win)... 

18) June 8, 1989 - Flint, MI: Hillbilly Jim beat Andre the Giant via pinfall. Sources have been checked and double checked repeatedly and it appears to be legit; Jim went on to win 7 more times but it was via DQ..

19) July 28, 1989 - Las Vegas, NV: Ultimate Warrior beat Andre the Giant via pinfall.. 

20) 1989: Intercontinental Champion Ultimate Warrior pinned Andre at least 9 times in the autumn during a house show tour. Some sources list 48 times (we list 48)...

Again, this is a sheer copy and paste from a google search. All the hard work is from CCG, an Administrator of a forum entitled “Kayfabe Board”

So Andre’s first career loss (that we know about) not only happened in a building I’ve been in dozens of times, but at the hands of someone I’ve personally shaken hands with?

Cool.

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1 hour ago, The Natural said:

Such a shocker, seeing Super Cena squashed like that by Brock Lesnar for Cena's WWE World Heavyweight Championship at WWE SummerSlam 2014.

That tweet doesn't tell the story right - Lesnar pitched squashing Cena after he had dinner with Steve Austin, and they both agreed that Lesnar doing a 50/50 match with anyone right after beating Undertaker would kill his momentum of having beaten the streak. So Austin gets an assist for the idea.

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