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May 2023 Wrestling Talk


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I don’t think Bill Watts was as out of touch as he was stubborn, and maybe even a little jealous. I still love the guy and don’t mean that as an insult. He was human, an old male human. That’s how we get. 

His nonstop trashing of Scott Steiner reminds me of Nash trashing Ricky Morton. It was so random and he just never stfu about it. Was he secretly in love with Missy or something? Did he want to be 3rd in line behind Eddie and Jack or lol!?! But seriously...I could see it. The 2 meet, Scott looks at him wrong, and that’s enough to just enrage a cantankerous old man who was already jealous of some idea that he already had in his head that all the younguns in the room had already planned not to listen to him. 

Idk about that WCWSN up there but I remember the TV being great in 1992. Sting vs Cactus Jack, and I clearly remember and Steiner vs MVC match where the Steiners actually won clean. And all the thrown together tag matches. That was 1 thing that still worked IMO. 

The bigger shows weren’t all that great. Obviously GAB 92, and there was a Clash that had something like a boxing match, a handicap match, then a :30 match. Tf...

Bill Watts with a clear head is still possibly the best wrestling mind ever. I said possibly.

SMW, even though it’s even shorter on 5 star matches, is similar to 1992 WCW. It was the same flavor even though it wasn’t the exact same thing. I think a reason for that was because Jim Cornette wasn’t quite the fire breathing encephalon that he is now. The basic things he knew about building a foundation produced good results without stubbornness and such mixed in. I could watch SMW anytime to this day. So much fun. 

And 1 more thought about more recent references in this topic about making money, getting people to like it etc. Wrestling is like your vegetables. Younguns aren’t going to eat slimy, sloppy, boiled broccoli that smells even worse than it tastes. You have to make a casserole that doesn’t stink up the whole house. Then when they get older they’ll eat it plain and like it like we do plain ole rasslin. But even then they’ll still make sure they don’t overcook it. By extension you can’t feed younguns nothing but shit either. They’ll eat it, but they’ll quit eating it eventually 1 way or another. 

Edited by BloodyChamp
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Outside of Bischoff (who didn't care by the end and used the show mostly to prop up WCW SN and then later Nitro), Watts had the most forgettable run of Clash of the Champions shows. I keep thinking the one in Topeka was under his regime with the great Cactus Jack/Hammer match and the two great tag matches that open up and cap the show, but that one was in January 1992. He has the aforementioned weird Clash that was taped out of order that I believe he wanted to cancel but they already made the commitment to do before he was officially boss. He also has the Clash which is the anniversary show with Hank Aaron, Ted Turner, and the other bigwigs at ringside at Center Stage. I rewatched that show and that was kinda average. The next one (which had the boxing match and the Madusa/Paul E. stuff) was much, much better, but didn't have the best booking. His last one was fine, but didn't exactly set the woods on fire.

It's weird that making the Clashes appointment television wasn't really one of his priorities. The Topeka show was worst rated or tied for the worst rated Clash at the time. The ones under the Watts regime somehow did worse than that one.

 

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Just now, odessasteps said:

Wasn't the Topeka Clash when Jack and Hammer got the "best match bonus" from Kip Frey? 

Yep. That match also had the unscripted moment of Abby throwing Missy Hyatt into a bucket of water since that arena (still around and had a WWE show last year) was next to the stockyards and freezing cold out. Ain't Abdullah a swell guy?

That was also the night Bret Hart was rumored to show up on cause he lost the IC title to the Mountie before the Rumble and folks thought his contract had run out. The dirtsheets got it wrong, and he was actually signed for like six or seven more months.

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looking through Wikipedia

Clash 19 was taped before Beach Blast and aired after it (but making it all NWA Tag Team Tournament did get around some potential continuity problems from doing things like that). Gonna guess the scheduling was inherited there.

Clash 20/21/22 could have been good builds for the impending PPVs a month later, but.. probably didn't quite work that way?

But yeah, someone probably eventually did math and realized there was more money to be made doing PPVs instead of Clashes in some months.

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ROFL Cactus vs Hammer was awesome to me as a youngun. Good to see it remembered positively here. Hammer coming out and beating Terrence after so much of Terrence cheating to win on Sunday TV for so long was awesome to. I was given that Clash on tape by my Uncle. 

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28 minutes ago, Cobra Commander said:

looking through Wikipedia

Clash 19 was taped before Beach Blast and aired after it (but making it all NWA Tag Team Tournament did get around some potential continuity problems from doing things like that). Gonna guess the scheduling was inherited there.

Clash 20/21/22 could have been good builds for the impending PPVs a month later, but.. probably didn't quite work that way?

But yeah, someone probably eventually did math and realized there was more money to be made doing PPVs instead of Clashes in some months.

I think Bischoff made that realization later on, but it was much later on. During the three headed monster era, I don't think it made sense to do more PPVs. That Fall Brawl PPV in 1993....not exactly the best representation of a promotion that's suppose to be #2. 

Even though he got fired that month, I still consider the SuperBrawl card his show especially with SMW involvement. It was a very uneven show with 2-3 good to great matches especially (surprise, surprise) Vader vs. Sting in the strap match. The other PPVs that year also felt uneven if not more uneven up until Starrcade 1993,which was designed to be a one match card really. 

It makes you wonder if not a booking committee but maybe a small team with Watts in it could have worked with Bischoff running TV and running some of the production end. For whatever you want to say about Vince and especially Kevin Dunn and ole Bruce Brown Nose, they had a way more cohesion in terms of their overall TV product. You can see why Dusty wanted to hire Bruce coming off his run in Global. They clearly had the in ring talent. They needed more help in connected the in ring stuff with making the TV and PPVs presentation feel important. Watts being uninformed on then current trends on top of being a racist along with Eric hating his guts would have blown it up, but it would have been interesting to see. They probably could have capitalized on Vince being out to lunch on so much stuff at the time.

If the company could have bottled and harnessed what they had in the very last two matches (three arguably cause Pillman vs. Zenk was good IIRC) on WrestleWar 92, they would have surpassed Vince in the span of a year with no Hogan. Hell, Hogan would have flown to Atlanta on his own dime and pleaded to sign with WCW.

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Most people consider Superbrawl a Bill Watts show. I thought most people considered that a solid show all around except for Barry vs Muta going to long, while they were both at their laziest, that late in the card. I sure remember it being great but it’s been forever since I watched it. 

WCW could have surpassed Vince at any point in time had they harnessed what they had best at any time IMO. That’s what sucked so fuckin bad about it, which is a discussion we’ve had before. 

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what's the consensus on Slamboree '93? i just watched it for the first time, and ugh. three legends matches in a row (including two non-finishes!) were a bad idea. but it did give us the awesome Sid vs Hammer, plus the Blondes vs Steamboat/"Douglas" cage match, so maybe it balances out? 

tried looking for a Bischoff podcast episode on it, but couldn't find one. was interested in how he thought it came out.

 

edit: found the podcast episode. it was alright but nothing special. https://podbay.fm/p/83-weeks-with-eric-bischoff/e/1653300000

Edited by twiztor
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I saw something... 3 pages back now about being glad for a wrestling show to take a chance on the young guys on occasion in defense of this (so far rather poor) AEW 4 Pillars storyline. I agree with that, but with a key caveat:  said show accepts the results of doing so even if it is not what they wanted. If sitting through a couple months of this means that they accept that Jungle Boy and Sammy are at the very least not ready for this spot now (and possibly ever) that is a worthy sacrifice, if they instead follow up this crap with pretending it was a success then I would rather they not bother.

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I’ve watched Slamboree 93 more recently than Superbrawl and I don’t know the consensus on it but I thought it was a good show that was a sign of the times. People liked when old rasslers showed up as long as it wasn’t the same old crap. The legends reunions took care of that problem somewhat. 

Solid work all around that I remember. I remember the cage match being fun. The Hombres ministoryline was over huge with the crowd. The announcers overselling the backstory as damage control to what was secretly going on made it reach what should have always been a normal level of continuity and organized work that WCW didn’t usually have lol!

Barry vs Arn might actually be Barry’s best match since his prime. I only hated Arn acting a little to babyfaceish. Not that Arn couldn’t be a good guy, but he was Doug Gilbert level corny jumping up and down and clapping and stuff. 

Edited by BloodyChamp
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I was never of big fan of WCW cage matches that weren't WarGames or a few of the Thunderdome/ThunderCage matches. However, the Hollywood Blondes vs. Dos Hombres did it for me. If you want to point to a match where it's clear the Blondes could have been more had they gone on and that Austin was on his way to superstardom then it's that match. The WarGames match at WrestleWar 92 when Austin starts off the match, just bleeds horrifically, and bumps/sells like a madman got the ball rolling, but this is one of the matches where you really notice. If I was Flair and just got back in the company, I would have been worried about my spot too. Short of a major injury (and God knows he had a few even over his WCW career), Austin was well on his way and wouldn't be denied.

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Shit WCW would have found a way to screw it up. They did every single thing within the confines of rasslin, you know? Austin and Pillman were good heels, but there had been good heels before. They were just 2 more of them at the time. Only once Pillman started to poke his toe outside of those confines in 1996 did his full potential as a bad guy show to everybody. Then of course Austin didn’t have those confines after a point in the WWF and I don’t have to explain the rest. 

Edited by BloodyChamp
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1 minute ago, BloodyChamp said:

Shit WCW would have found a way to screw it up. They did every single thing within the confines of rasslin, you know? Austin and Pillman were good heels, but there had been good heels before. They were just 2 more of them at the time. Only once Pillman started to poke his toe outside of those confines did his full potential show. Then of course Austin didn’t have those confines after a point in the WWF and I don’t have to explain the rest. 

The Blondes split hurt Pillman way, way more than it hurt Austin and you can see it over the next 3 1/2 years. Austin got stuck with Colonel Parker when he didn't really need a mouthpiece. Rewatching Pillman in 1994 right now, he got sent back to be Flyin Brian. Keep in mind, Pillman turns 32 in 3 weeks time where I am at on my rewatch. He was way too old to be the plucky underdog babyface. Once he got to do something different, he spent a whole lotta time overcorrecting the issue of not having that chance to break out. Once he got his ankle fused, that was the end of it. You can see though the Loose Cannon stuff wasn't connecting like he thought it would. The commentary on Raw and Shotgun he does where he's basically the anti-woke guy who says controversial shit didn't gel then and definitely is horrendous now. He was trying too hard.

If I had my druthers, he gets to spends 6-9 more months in the Blondes and develop more. Then, you can break them up and give Pillman something different than being Flyin Brian when he feuds with Austin. Also, of course, he doesn't have the hummer accident.

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51 minutes ago, BloodyChamp said:

I’ve watched Slamboree 93 more recently than Superbrawl and I don’t know the consensus on it but I thought it was a good show that was a sign of the times. People liked when old rasslers showed up as long as it wasn’t the same old crap. The legends reunions took care of that problem somewhat. 

Solid work all around that I remember. I remember the cage match being fun. The Hombres ministoryline was over huge with the crowd. The announcers overselling the backstory as damage control to what was secretly going on made it reach what should have always been a normal level of continuity and organized work that WCW didn’t usually have lol!

Barry vs Arn might actually be Barry’s best match since his prime. I only hated Arn acting a little to babyfaceish. Not that Arn couldn’t be a good guy, but he was Doug Gilbert level corny jumping up and down and clapping and stuff. 

Had the VHS as a kid, and for whatever reason they edited Sid's match off the tape and I didn't find out about it until reading an Apter mag years later - did WCW tapes have poor enough turnaround that the Sid/Arn incident 5 months later would have affected it?

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If it was a 2 hour tape, they probably edited off random stuff to fit in the main matches and what they could around those matches.

On paper, it seems like it's more bang for your buck especially when you're younger but WCW had some of the most random ass matches on PPVs.

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WCW tape edits have been obsessed over for forever lol we’ll never have the answers. They edited the best matches more than once.

I agree Pillman as a face in 1994 was a step back, complete with the time limit draw with Regal on a ppv. Jeeze like Brain Pillman had never been in a time limit draw for the TV title before. So let’s put it on ppv. Real good idea.

The Loose Cannon was killer. I do also agree that ShotgunSN didn’t quite work out but IIRC he didn’t want to be an announcer and there were a few other issues with that whole show IMO. It was the start of the era and the kinks hadn’t quite been worked out. There were also some good things about the show. 

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14 minutes ago, BloodyChamp said:

WCW tape edits have been obsessed over for forever lol we’ll never have the answers. They edited the best matches more than once.

I agree Pillman as a face in 1994 was a step back, complete with the time limit draw with Regal on a ppv. Jeeze like Brain Pillman had never been in a time limit draw for the TV title before. So let’s put it on ppv. Real good idea.

The Loose Cannon was killer. I do also agree that ShotgunSN didn’t quite work out but IIRC he didn’t want to be an announcer and there were a few other issues with that whole show IMO. It was the start of the era and the kinks hadn’t quite been worked out. There were also some good things about the show. 

I dunno about it being killer, but I believe had Pillman time to develop his personality more and of course dealt a bad hand with injuries and addiction, he probably could have found something that worked. I think he obsessed too much on getting one over on the marks. You can hear it in the Kim Wood interviews that pair loved all the shit that come from it even though there was absolutely no payoff for it.

There was a small time he was with the Horsemen right before the I respect you booker man stuff where he was starting to get back to where he was with the Blondes. However, it was obviously cut short.

Outside the handful of weeks he was paired with Goldust before he unfortunately passed away, his stuff didn't really register with me other than a guy trying way too hard. 

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8 hours ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

I don't expect better from you cause you're AK. Not exactly a brand known for quality. 

Given all their resources and genius, why cannot they beat out 10-12 other shows on Fox and their related networks? They got money out the wazoo now. No excuses. Meanwhile, based on what they got, AEW is going to be the top scripted show on TBS/TNT for the next 70 years. On their next TV deal, they're going to get good money for a organization that's only been around not even five years.

You're not wrong about A-K so it's saying something when you're the one who comes across unhinged in that discussion

5 hours ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Yep. That match also had the unscripted moment of Abby throwing Missy Hyatt into a bucket of water since that arena (still around and had a WWE show last year) was next to the stockyards and freezing cold out. Ain't Abdullah a swell guy?

In "Have a Nice Day" Foley says one of the higher ups (can't recall for sure who, maybe Dusty?) instructed them to do it.

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9 minutes ago, Norwegian Rudo said:

You're not wrong about A-K so it's saying something when you're the one who comes across unhinged in that discussion

You're right A_K **wink wink**. I respect you, bookerman.

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33 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

You're right A_K **wink wink**. I respect you, bookerman.

Might want to check your conspiracy filter, I fear it's defective, For one thing I've been around for several decades longer than him, just don't feel the need to post much.

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15 minutes ago, Norwegian Rudo said:

Might want to check your conspiracy filter, I fear it's defective, For one thing I've been around for several decades longer than him, just don't feel the need to post much.

Right, not A_K. **wink wink**

Wait, several decades? Also, how do you know? I mean AR15 or whatever his name is could have been here posting about the ratings on the DuMont network and how YOY they beat the shit that's on ABC. He has his finger on the pulse, daddy. It's not like folks always had the same screenname. 

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9 hours ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

I don't expect better from you cause you're AK. Not exactly a brand known for quality. 

Given all their resources and genius, why cannot they beat out 10-12 other shows on Fox and their related networks? They got money out the wazoo now. No excuses. Meanwhile, based on what they got, AEW is going to be the top scripted show on TBS/TNT for the next 70 years. On their next TV deal, they're going to get good money for a organization that's only been around not even five years.

While you acerbically chase the alter-ego of me a few posts above, I'll do a quick log-out/log-in switch to relent here.

After sleeping on it and considering the train of logic, I agree. It is a reasonable supposition that Smackdown are trending 25% higher w/ a monster demo than when they were on Fox YOY because they are now on Fox while AEW are trending 30% lower than when they were on TBS YOY because they are now on TBS.

Further, I retract all prior analysis on the trajectory of AEW product & quality of their scriptwriting -- I will assign it variously to whining/cuntishness/being a brand or mind "not known for quality" as were my whims of the day. The avant-garde & high art nature of the television show simply, it seems, has been going over my head, compared with what's been cooked up by the dullards at The Fed which even a moron like me can understand.

Now, on with the wrestling!

Edited by A_K
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35 minutes ago, A_K said:

While you acerbically chase the alter-ego of me a few posts above, I'll do a quick log-out/log-in switch to relent here.

After sleeping on it and considering the train of logic, I agree. It is a reasonable supposition that Smackdown are trending 25% higher w/ a monster demo than when they were on Fox YOY because they are now on Fox while AEW are trending 30% lower than when they were on TBS YOY because they are now on TBS.

Further, I retract all prior analysis on the trajectory of AEW product & quality of their scriptwriting -- I will assign it variously to whining/cuntishness/being a brand or mind "not known for quality" as were my whims of the day. The avant-garde & high art nature of the television show simply, it seems, has been going over my head, compared with what's been cooked up by the dullards at The Fed which even a moron like me can understand.

Now, on with the wrestling!

Can you retract this?

Quote

You're an addled little weasel, aren't you? A handful of hours before your comment .. you couldn't wait to come out of your hovel when I posted for the first time in weeks. If you want to compare our standing in real life then let's take this to DMs before you start bringing in reference to QAnons and whatever other weird, unsolicited social and political pre-occupations and chips on your shoulder that you project here, you absolute nobody.

Also, are you still a multi-millionaire by the way? 

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