March 2023 Wrestling Discussion

[BobbyWhioux]

I'm being partly facetious, but Softball Season was a commitment Sid took very seriously and I would assume that it'd be easier for him to get that time off as a heel than as a face, particularly a Top Face in the Hogan slot.

[cwoy2j]

2 hours ago, Peck said:

These regulated sportsbooks aren’t stupid. They don’t put themselves in a position to lose money on anything, much less WWE. I’m sure the max amounts on wagers will be extremely small and the juice/lines will be absurd. And as soon as they think you have an edge over them they’ll start limiting your bets like they do with any other sport.

Yeah, there's definitely a max bet limit on Bovada. I want to say a few hundred bucks. But still, the odds sometimes are so long that you could clear a few grand if you bet $100. Like I said, I bet $5 on Orton beating The Fiend and cleared upwards of $150. I wish I'd have bet $100.

[Elsalvajeloco]

27 minutes ago, BobbyWhioux said:

I'm being partly facetious, but Softball Season was a commitment Sid took very seriously and I would assume that it'd be easier for him to get that time off as a heel than as a face, particularly a Top Face in the Hogan slot.

You would think though that Savage eventually being WWF champion after WrestleMania would in that slot though. However, I am guessing Sid through his two WWF runs and his run as a Skyscraper likes being the heel who gets cheered. I dunno. 

It's hard to make heads or tails of this because they clearly didn't bring in Sid in 1991 to be a heel. Yet, if you make Sid the top babyface, how do you make anyone a heel against him? It's easy to make someone who was over with the fans because of his look a babyface initially, but how do you make him sympathetic when he's made his career up to that point on not selling and dominating everyone? Keep in mind, we are five or six years away from the introduction of Bill Goldberg. Moreover, even with that, all the greatness really came in the chase. Were they expecting someone like Flair to carry him every night? That was gonna be quite the quandary.

[BloodyChamp]

Sid’s as a face in WCW wasn’t terrible. Everything around it was, which in turn made the run terrible but him walking down the aisle to cheers wasn’t what I’d call terrible. Granted that was after the Pandora’s box containing all the ways to make a lead face out of dominating figure had been opened a long time ago. And either way it wasn’t the same as what they were doing with him in 1991.

[Elsalvajeloco]

How about this? Make Sid the new Andre who doesn't need the belt.

I say that because it's clear by late 1991 that Bret is well on his way to being a top guy. I know there is a small window where it looked like he was headed to WCW in 1992, but it's hard to see Bret not being WWF champion with the trajectory he was on. With the Zahorian stuff and the subsequent steroid trial looming, it looks better with Bret as champion than the comic book character looking guy who not only had those issues in WWF but in his return to WCW as well. Moreover, we're in the transition period where workrate would get more a consideration than ever before over size. Size would still be top priority, but not like it had been just a few years prior.

[Happ Hazzard]

Yeah in reality Sid was going to be gone by the end of 1992 just like Warrior and Davey. 

WWF booking was all over the place in 1992 and 1993. They threw out all the feuds that they'd set up after WM8 and did SummerSlam with all new matches. And there's no way they planned to have Luger as the new American hero in July when they debuted him as the Narcissist in January.

[Niners Fan in CT]

2 hours ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Well, the rumor was Sid was gonna be positioned as their new Hulk Hogan but Sid didn't understand why he should be a babyface to begin with. Doesn't help that he tore his bicep some months later after he came in. Then you add in the whole steroids stuff that became a big issue.

IIRC Sid returned from the injury right before the Royal Rumble 1992 and that's when they had already switched to Hogan vs. Sid Justice at WM VIII with Sid being the monster heel. However, if you believe Sid, Hogan made a big stink about getting booed in Albany and Sid getting cheered. Make of that what you will.

The whole lead up to WrestleMania VIII has always fascinated me.  I was always at a loss as to why they didn't want to run Hogan vs. Flair.   I've done a lot of digging and it always comes back to either 

A) The house show run didn't do impressive business (especially out west) and Vince got cold feet on it 

B) Hogan was going to be leaving after WMVIII to do some Hollywood stuff and also because he looked like a fool on live TV answering steroid questions. With Hogan leaving, of course they couldn't have him lose the match to Flair and end the show with a heel going over.  

But I've seen the Hogan vs. Flair match in late '91 at MSG and it was a super hot crowd and actually a pretty good match, an interesting clash of styles there. I still don't understand exactly why they didn't go for it. They even announced Hogan as the #1 contender to Flair at the WM press conference.  That's an interesting watch also. 

Sid was definitely supposed to be the new "it" guy for them though.  I don't know.  I am fine with how it played out, Flair vs. Macho was great. 

[GuerrillaMonsoon]

I think the better card is Flair defending against Sid, and Hulk accidentally costing Sid the match. Savage having a blow off match with Jake, or you have Savage reluctantly coming to Hulk for help against Jake and Taker.

The Bret to WCW in 1992 rumours are interesting. It's easy to see why he stayed when he's almost certainly worse off on the card - Sting, Steamboat, Simmons, Dustin and to some extent Koloff ahead of him on the face side. Vader, Rude, and probably one of Austin and Foley ahead of him as a heel. 

At best, he tags with Taylor instead of Valentine and gets a decent run there.

Having said that, the absolute luck in Hogan, Sid, Warrior, Jake, Flair, Bulldog, Piper all being gone in the space of nine months. Slaughter and Savage being forcefully removed on a Vince whim too makes it a real Steven Bradbury run for Bret.

Edited March 13, 2023 by GuerrillaMonsoon

[elizium]

1 hour ago, Happ Hazzard said:

WWF booking was all over the place in 1992 and 1993. They threw out all the feuds that they'd set up after WM8 and did SummerSlam with all new matches.

It's really wild how different Summerslam 92 ended up, compared to what was presented on TV from Wrestlemania to July. If you had guessed around June what the card would have been, it would have been some combination of Flair-Savage, Warrior-Shango, Undertaker-Berzerker, Martel-Tatanka, LOD-Beverly Brothers, Money Inc-Natural Disasters, and Hart-Michaels. Some ended up coming back, but they pretty much threw all that out in July.

[Coletti]

Occasionally I'll visit Reddit for wrestling stuff and boy oh BOY just that experience alone tells me I would take DVDVR broken to the point of only being able to read it via Virtual Boy over ANY other place on Lemmy's internet. 

[L_W_P]

7 hours ago, cwoy2j said:

Or just have a DQ. I know with Bovada, you just bet on who wins, straight up. Doesn't have to be a pin. If you pick a guy to win and he wins by DQ or countout, you still win your bet. If it's a non-finish or something, it's just a push and you get your money back.

The link that got put up with SportBet in Australia specifically says Countout or DQs don't count.

Even if it's a small, capped limit, it seems insane that we can gamble on a PRE DETERMINED outcome.

I know it's been a thing in the NFL for years but this is getting out of hand!

[GuerrillaMonsoon]

The NFL is fixed? Why haven't any posters mentioned this lately?

[zendragon]

Wasn’t some website offering action on The summerslam where Brock beat The Rock?

[Elsalvajeloco]

38 minutes ago, elizium said:

It's really wild how different Summerslam 92 ended up, compared to what was presented on TV from Wrestlemania to July. If you had guessed around June what the card would have been, it would have been some combination of Flair-Savage, Warrior-Shango, Undertaker-Berzerker, Martel-Tatanka, LOD-Beverly Brothers, Money Inc-Natural Disasters, and Hart-Michaels. Some ended up coming back, but they pretty much threw all that out in July.

Even though the beginning of what was and ultimately became the WWF New Generation was really when my true fandom started (I was bordering on casual-hardcore before that), the TV gets really bad around 92ish where it's clear that there is a bunch of stuff going behind the cameras that Vince has kinda lost grip with what's going on. 

This is why we really need a real ESPN 30 for 30 on not just Vince but the entire WWF situation from 1991 to 1994, where the company is slowing sinking every week with very little light at the end of the tunnel.

[GuerrillaMonsoon]

I was about to respond asking whether or not the company was in worse shape from 94 to 97, but the financial figures show that they lost 4.5 mill in 94/95, then post profits of 3.3 mill in 95/96 and 6.5 mill in 96/97, despite approximately 10% drop in revenue in that time. 

I could have sworn there were some articles back in 1997 claiming that were several debtors who could have easily called in debts and led to bankruptcy proceedings, and I can't find anything from that time.

Also difficult to tell when they could have been legitimately kicked off the air by USA and PPV providers (as opposed to WWE hyperbole in documentaries), not just for poor ratings, but overstepping the mark - Lawler/Droese incident, the Bret bladejob in Canada, Bret's unfiltered swearing on a live mic after the cagematch, the Pillman/Austin gun angle, etc. Not to mention the various Phil Muchnick incendiary columns - did they ever really have an impact on anyone outside of Titan? Did B Brent Bozell actually lose them sponsors in the early 2000s?

[Elsalvajeloco]

20 hours ago, GuerrillaMonsoon said:

I was about to respond asking whether or not the company was in worse shape from 94 to 97, but the financial figures show that they lost 4.5 mill in 94/95, then post profits of 3.3 mill in 95/96 and 6.5 mill in 96/97, despite approximately 10% drop in revenue in that time. 

I could have sworn there were some articles back in 1997 claiming that were several debtors who could have easily called in debts and led to bankruptcy proceedings, and I can't find anything from that time.

Also difficult to tell when they could have been legitimately kicked off the air by USA and PPV providers (as opposed to WWE hyperbole in documentaries), not just for poor ratings, but overstepping the mark - Lawler/Droese incident, the Bret bladejob in Canada, Bret's unfiltered swearing on a live mic after the cagematch, the Pillman/Austin gun angle, etc. Not to mention the various Phil Muchnick incendiary columns - did they ever really have an impact on anyone outside of Titan? Did B Brent Bozell actually lose them sponsors in the early 2000s?

I'm gonna guess that by 1995, they reconfigured and adjusted for the worst and won't spending as much.

In my 1994 weekly viewing journey, I am at the syndicated shows the week before Mania X and this is the first week of the taping cycle with the shows running through WM with the last week being the week after Mania. There are no syndicated matches the weekend of Mania. The Superstars taping took place at Stabler Arena. That's not so bad. However, the Wrestling Challenge tapings (along with part of the March to WrestleMania X special) took place at Paul Gerry Fieldhouse in LOCH SHELDRAKE, NY. It looks dire, man. They may have had 300 people there. Five years prior, that's the C crew show with like Tito Santana headlining versus The Model or Dino Bravo. They did the week before WrestleMania tapings there. To make it worse, I believe the show I watched is the last time Randy Savage wrestles on a WWF non-PPV televised event. One of the biggest stars in wrestling history, who despite coming through a wacky outlaw promotion earlier his career, that has been a part of big arena and stadium shows for the last 8 or 9 years is wrestling in front of 300 people. I know he does a run in Smoky Mountain Wrestling at some point with Bruiser Bedlam shortly after this, but goddamn for WWF, that's brutal. The place is so small that I believe they don't even have the regular video wall.

This is early 1994 so we ain't even close to the tip of the iceberg.

[GuerrillaMonsoon]

I'm wondering how much of 94 was the Charles Austin payout and legal fees relating to the steroid trial. The 93 shows aren't much better. 

I've done that 94 rewatch also. The early shows from that country club are awful. 

[GuerrillaMonsoon]

The syndicated shows are actually pretty good until Johnny Polo leaves the company, and then its just a mess of aimless squashes.

Also the amount of time given to Ludvig Borga between January and Mania even though he's never coming back is something.

[SirSmUgly]

19 hours ago, twiztor said:

@the Natural

https://imgur.com/a/DlU5lFx

 

edit: 

fuck this board. can't tag users. can't embed images. can't navigate forward/backward pages. this is beyond ridiculous.  @DEAN  @Rippa
seriously. it's been fucking months. fix this board. i'm a member of multiple other message boards online and nobody else seems to have any of these issues.  what the fuck.

 

I wouldn't put it this way, maybe - @dean has been laid up in the hospital recently, from what I recall, so the board is probably not his priority right now - but I will say that as someone who spends money on a few sites like Defector and who gives five bucks a month to places that I appreciate reading, like Pro Publica, I'd be glad to toss some money to Rippa and Dean to get a new board/get whatever is needed to upgrade. I'd be bummed beyond belief if this place went down, and it's not like we're paying for the service of posting here.

So, uh, if y'all who run this place want to pass around the collection basket, I'm glad to give so that this place can work better. Just say the word. 

[Dolphman 3000]

4 minutes ago, GuerrillaMonsoon said:

The syndicated shows are actually pretty good until Johnny Polo leaves the company, and then its just a mess of aimless squashes.

Ted DiBiase co-hosting All American right before it changed to Action Zone was entertaining

Pettengill: This is Taco Bell, try it! You know, "cross the border"!

DiBiase: Why, did you kill a guy?

Edited March 13, 2023 by Dolphman 3000

[Elsalvajeloco]

1 minute ago, GuerrillaMonsoon said:

The syndicated shows are actually pretty good until Johnny Polo leaves the company, and then its just a mess of aimless squashes.

Also the amount of time given to Ludvig Borga between January and Mania even though he's never coming back is something.

It's very much a mess now, but Superstars sorta feels semi important. It still feels bizarre they kinda cannot commit to airing certain news or angles cause certain syndicated markets air the syndicated shows out of order.

Challenge....I am shocked they made it all the way until late 1995 before it gets cancelled. I am in March of 1994, and it feels like a show that's on it's deathbed. Stan Lane has gone from perfectly acceptable in small doses to insufferable. That doesn't help.

[GuerrillaMonsoon]

The weirdest episode by far is the one after JR gets sick and I think its Stan Lane hosting at the last minute, and they just unceremoniously bury the guy and end it with something along the lines of "Doubt we're ever seeing that guy again".

[Elsalvajeloco]

20 minutes ago, GuerrillaMonsoon said:

The weirdest episode by far is the one after JR gets sick and I think its Stan Lane hosting at the last minute, and they just unceremoniously bury the guy and end it with something along the lines of "Doubt we're ever seeing that guy again".

I just saw that episode a few weeks ago. I don't think they say that but they do make fun of him and it's very weird.

The whole fucking thing is weird, honestly. They pretend the guy (whoever it is from week to week) has to get up, leave, and go get dressed for the Face to Face segment or whatever news segment they have like it's a goddamn sixth grade school play. I forgot what the cover was when JR had the Bells Palsy bout, but it was something like that and he never comes back. They never explain why he didn't show up again or why Lane has to replace him.

IIRC something is happening backstage that Ross has to cover IMMEDIATELY and we never see him again. I mean you have Pettengill and Lord Alfred and Ray Rougeau, but send the guy who is already on commentary. 

I also don't know why they didn't just edit Ross off the episode entirely if he couldn't be in Stamford or healthy enough to record the commentary. Just say Ross is off on assignment. To have him on the episode for like 90 seconds, have him saunter off, and then weirdly make fun of him is the strangest and most bush league shit possible.

[NikoBaltimore]

23 minutes ago, SirSmellingtonofCascadia said:

I wouldn't put it this way, maybe - @dean has been laid up in the hospital recently, from what I recall, so the board is probably not his priority right now - but I will say that as someone who spends money on a few sites like Defector and who gives five bucks a month to places that I appreciate reading, like Pro Publica, I'd be glad to toss some money to Rippa and Dean to get a new board/get whatever is needed to upgrade. I'd be bummed beyond belief if this place went down, and it's not like we're paying for the service of posting here.

So, uh, if y'all who run this place want to pass around the collection basket, I'm glad to give so that this place can work better. Just say the word. 

I was thinking about that too recently.  It's ultimately not our call to start something like this.  But if any of the admins signed off on it then I'm sure it wouldn't take much to get the ball rolling.  But for a free service I agree with the prevailing issues but would rather help than voice frustration.

Oh, and on the current topic Sid ruled.  Even when he turned heel I had a hard time booing the guy.  And one day I might try a tiny bet for an AEW show to see how it goes.  Even if I make $5 or $10 profit that's good enough for me.

Edited March 13, 2023 by NikoBaltimore

[twiztor]

On 3/12/2023 at 8:38 PM, SirSmellingtonofCascadia said:

I wouldn't put it this way, maybe - @dean has been laid up in the hospital recently, from what I recall, so the board is probably not his priority right now - but I will say that as someone who spends money on a few sites like Defector and who gives five bucks a month to places that I appreciate reading, like Pro Publica, I'd be glad to toss some money to Rippa and Dean to get a new board/get whatever is needed to upgrade. I'd be bummed beyond belief if this place went down, and it's not like we're paying for the service of posting here.

So, uh, if y'all who run this place want to pass around the collection basket, I'm glad to give so that this place can work better. Just say the word. 

you are correct, and i concur. i was drunk and worked up last night. i'd also be willing to (super)kick a few (young) bucks DVDVR's way if it leads to the board staying together and hopefully improving the stuff that doesn't quite work. 

On 3/12/2023 at 9:01 PM, NikoBaltimore said:

I was thinking about that too recently.  It's ultimately not our call to start something like this.  But if any of the admins signed off on it then I'm sure it wouldn't take much to get the ball rolling.  But for a free service I agree with the prevailing issues but would rather help than voice frustration.

well said.

Edited March 14, 2023 by twiztor