February 2023 Wrestling Discussion

[Log]

21 minutes ago, Zakk_Sabbath said:

I'll second this - Bill was great this week in the tag match, and he's gotten in fantastic shape. I didn't get to see a ton of his post-WWE stuff (I know he had a personal issue early on) but I recently caught him wrestling Curt Hawkins in a no DQ match on the TNA Pluto channel (not sure when it actually aired) and he was tremendous there too with similar oomph to that which we saw Weds night, so I'm really glad to see him getting a shot. 

No slander on the Firm, but I'd like to see Bill move up the card a bit at some point - even if not pushed to the moon, maybe eat a couple of those 'vanquish the monster' pins that have unfortunately fallen at Lance Archer's feet over the last couple years, and share the load a bit there. Plenty of fun to be had in either men's undercard title scene, too: he could have good big man matches with Joe and Wardlow, or toss Darby around a bunch in the TNT division - as far as the AA title, I don't know if Big Bill would be open to doing anything comedic-leaning, but I think there could be some mileage in him being the frustrated Elmer Fudd-straight man to OC's Bugs Bunny.

Ooh, Big Bill and Archer should team up and destroy some little tag team dudes for a while. Their Dark squashes could be a blast.

[Just Dave]

15 hours ago, Greggulator said:

I need help for a match I am writing in my e-fed. (Do not mock me, I know.) Looking for good comedy match recommendations and comedy spots. 
 

Here is the outline of the match: My characters are the faves. I have a young, Uber athletic Shelton Benjamin/Montez Ford type who is still lacking technique. He has a manager who is a cagey, wily older woman who loves shenanigans. They are lovable scoundrels - think Lie Cheat Steal era Eddie stunts but with a really athletic moveset with a manager who has been described as “Blanche Devereaux meets Robin Hood.”

He has a title match. The champion is an older veteran GOAT type heel who is both a physical force and technical master with perhaps their last reign as champ. The has a manager who is like Harley Race. They are Uber serious wrestlers who hate comedy/fun/gimmicks.

So the match itself: My dudes are going to hype up their athletic advantage, which the overly serious heels bite into. But then when the match comes, my dudes just turn it into a comedy shtick fest that the heels are not ready for and it gets under their skin which gives my people an advantage.

So I will take any suggestions of different spots or matches I can watch to ape things.

I think the cutoffs would be super important in something like this. Like, the serious heel is willing to put up with a certain amount of horseshit, but at specific times will just clothesline the babyface out of his shoes. Like, "that's about enough of that."

There's a really great Lucha Underground trios where Pimpernela Escarlata and Mascarita Estrada team with someone else who's name escapes me against Mil Muertes' crew of flunkies. The technicos are able to keep the heels off balance with shenanigans early but then the heels tighten up and end up squashing the second half of the match. Lucha Underground would actually probably be a really good resource to mine from for athletic shenanigans. I wish I could remember more about that specific trios match. 

[hammerva]

Well today is the for people who love to bitch on Twitter today because it is 2022 OBSERVER AWARDS 

https://wrestlepurists.com/2022-wrestling-observer-awards-results/

I guess the biggest gripe is that the WWE is rated worse than the NWA and Control Your Narrative which is admittingly pretty stupid.  

[For Great Justice]

I mean it’s a no-win black hole of a discussion that I’m sure I’ll regret starting, but I can’t help but say I don’t think the WON Awards have ever been further away from the general wrestling zeitgeist (even the internet version of it).

There is some serious fart self-smelling going on here.

[Raziel]

I mean, it takes a super smart booker to run the same angle with the same guy FIVE TIMES IN A ROW.

[Zakk_Sabbath]

50 minutes ago, hammerva said:

guess the biggest gripe is that the WWE is rated worse than the NWA and Control Your Narrative which is admittingly pretty stupid.  

I'm not a voter or current viewer of any of those shows, so no dog in the fight, but I kind of get it in so far as I think the argument could be made that WWE should be much, much better given their immense talent pool, infrastructure, and monetary resources, whereas no one expected a thing from NWA and CYN to begin with

[Raziel]

Just now, Zakk_Sabbath said:

I'm not a voter or current viewer of any of those shows, so no dog in the fight, but I kind of get it in so far as I think the argument could be made that WWE should be much, much better given their immense talent pool, infrastructure, and monetary resources, whereas no one expected a thing from NWA and CYN to begin with

But that actually makes it worse, since NWA and CYN haven't actually ever delivered a thing,

[Lawful Metal]

1 hour ago, The Natural said:

Keiji Muto had his retirement matches this week and got me thinking about the best last match/the worst last match ever you've seen.

Best: Kenta Kobashi's.

Kenta Kobashi/Keiji Muto/Kensuke Sasaki/Jun Akiyama vs. KENTA/Go Shiosaki/Yoshinobu Kanemura/Maybach Taniguchi. Pro-Wrestling NOAH Final Burning in Budokan 2013. Kobashi is in my top five Greatest Wrestlers of All Time with Bryan Danielson #1, Kazuchika Okada, Bret Hart and Hiroshi Tanahashi.

Worst: Shawn Michaels.

Shawn Michaels/Triple H vs. The Undertaker/Kane. WWE Crown Jewel 2020. Michaels vs. Undertaker at WWE WrestleMania XXVI in the main event was perfect. Michaels stuck to his retirement until THAT match at Blood Money when everything went wrong. One of the worst matches ever. Surprised Michaels hasn't comeback so it isn't his last.

Best Megumi Kudo v. Shark Tsuchiya

[The Natural]

6 minutes ago, Lawful Metal said:

Best Megumi Kudo v. Shark Tsuchiya

Watched little Joshi. I'll check that out, ta. 

[Lawful Metal]

5 minutes ago, The Natural said:

Watched little Joshi. I'll check that out, ta. 

oh no

[Greggulator]

1 hour ago, just drew said:

I think the cutoffs would be super important in something like this. Like, the serious heel is willing to put up with a certain amount of horseshit, but at specific times will just clothesline the babyface out of his shoes. Like, "that's about enough of that."

There's a really great Lucha Underground trios where Pimpernela Escarlata and Mascarita Estrada team with someone else who's name escapes me against Mil Muertes' crew of flunkies. The technicos are able to keep the heels off balance with shenanigans early but then the heels tighten up and end up squashing the second half of the match. Lucha Underground would actually probably be a really good resource to mine from for athletic shenanigans. I wish I could remember more about that specific trios match. 

My kind of outline for this is:

The face starts out by getting under the heel's skin via entertaining stalling and uses it to gain advantage. Then the heel cuts off like you said and gets control... only to then get caught up in something like "Colt gets the opponent to stop/footstomp" spot and then snaps into one of his actual good moves. 

My ultimate plan is that he eventually has enough of an advantage from all of this stupidity and "actually" wrestles" and  hits his finisher (the one The Miz does) and gets a 1-2-OHHHHHHH attempt and then finally the heel snaps into things real quick and he can't escape and eats the fall. 

Another gimmick I am using -- the ref in question is an intentionally bad referee known for being corrupt. My female manager has already seduced him to her advantage in a few matches. So I also have that prop to use.

My characters also recently started doing The Fargo Strut. I'm trying to figure out a way where the heel's awfully serious Harley Race manager is forced to do The Fargo Strut or else they lose the title. So he has to do it in what is the worst moment of his career. 

[The Natural]

1 hour ago, hammerva said:

Well today is the for people who love to bitch on Twitter today because it is 2022 OBSERVER AWARDS 

https://wrestlepurists.com/2022-wrestling-observer-awards-results/

I guess the biggest gripe is that the WWE is rated worse than the NWA and Control Your Narrative which is admittingly pretty stupid.  

 

24 minutes ago, For Great Justice said:

I mean it’s a no-win black hole of a discussion that I’m sure I’ll regret starting, but I can’t help but say I don’t think the WON Awards have ever been further away from the general wrestling zeitgeist (even the internet version of it).

There is some serious fart self-smelling going on here.

Thanks for posting these, @hammerva.

Spoiler

Roman Reigns should have won Wrestler of the Year. Very surprised Briscoe Brothers vs. #FTR didn't win MOTY. The first match was my favourite then the third. About time FTR won Tag Team of The Year. Should have multiple times already.

Right my boy Bryan Danielson won his namesake award, the Bryan Danielson/Best Technical Award. I thought Bryan Danielson when he got the opportunity was the Most Outstanding Wrestler. Will Ospreay has never done anything for me. I'd have given Best Booker to Triple H for the way he's turned WWE round in a short space of time. This was Tony Khan's worst year booking AEW by far. Ronda Rousey deservedly getting Most Overrated, her second WWE run a dud. So happy Kevin Kelly won Best Announcer. Well deserved. Excalibur is overrated. Royal Rumble rightly won the Worst Major Wrestling Show of the Year. WWE Worst Promotion of the Year over NWA? C'mon, man. That's BS.

 

[The Natural]

For the MMA fans here:

Spoiler

MMA Most Valuable: Israel Adesanya.

Best MMA Box Office Draw: Israel Adesanya.

Women's MMA MVP: Zhang Weili.

Most Outstanding Fighter: Alexander Volkanovski.

Fight of the Year: Glover Teixeira vs. Jiri Prochazka, UFC 275.

 

[Just Dave]

Idk if this counts as spoilers, but be advised; 

I really don't understand the notion that HHH has turned WWE around. The numbers are up, but I think that's a cyclical thing. Outside of the Bloodline, what angles are better than they were with Vince in charge? Most of his nxt re-hires have been failures to this point. Gargano. Lumis. Bronson Reed. Karrion Kross. Shit Row. Dakota Kai has been thoroughly "meh." Tegan Nox. He's managed to make Io Sky boring. Santos Escobar should be in a better spot than he is. It's not good booking. At all. His treatment of Judgement Day has been awful. He had the good sense to give Piper Niven her name back. That's a positive. But he shit up the payoff to the Reigns/Zayn angle and now we're supposed to believe the same tag team titles that have been an afterthought for most of the last two decades is somehow a satisfying conclusion? It's real bad. A lot of folks are lying to themselves because they're so happy Vince is gone that they'll accept anything. The matches are longer. Great. Oh, I'll give him credit for one thing; he had the good sense to put Imperium back together. Those guys rule. I just don't buy the hype with HHH. Smackdown is unwatchable most weeks outside the Bloodline stuff, the women's division is in a shambles, and the midcard is still a jumbled mess outside of Gunther, and he really shouldn't be there.

[odessasteps]

I thought people were into heel Dominic and Rhea? 
 

Someone sent me a screen shot of what Dave wrote about the Booking award and my first thought was “those vote totals seem a lot lower than I remember.” If true, I wonder if that’s a sign of how many people Dave has run off.

[Craig H]

18 hours ago, John E. Dynamite said:

You absolutely love to see it.

I figured someone with his good character qualities would have responded to his own prediction...

[Zakk_Sabbath]

1 hour ago, Raziel said:

But that actually makes it worse, since NWA and CYN haven't actually ever delivered a thing,

Oh yeah, dude, I totally see that argument, but I'm kind of looking at it more like it's an indictment on WWE's output and what it has the *potential* to be with just a little care, rather than seeing it as any meaningful, measurable, tangible argument that WWE is somehow a worse show than the one that Tyrus is heavyweight champion of. Like I mentioned, I don't vote and I've quit both, so no dog in the fight, but gun to my head, I'd way sooner watch a Raw/SD before I watched a Powerrr/USA; I'm crazy, not stupid.

[nofuture]

Funniest thing from the WON Awards was Takumi Iroha coming in 4th for Rookie of the year with 67 votes.  Iroha debuted in 2013.

[For Great Justice]

I don’t see an argument for 2022 NJPW over WWE. NJPW didn’t have anything like WM Night 1 or CATC, made some awful decisions, and just had zero buzz. I guess we can partially blame the pandemic, but Gedo wins worst booker of the year in my eyes. 

[The Comedian]

2 hours ago, For Great Justice said:

I mean it’s a no-win black hole of a discussion that I’m sure I’ll regret starting, but I can’t help but say I don’t think the WON Awards have ever been further away from the general wrestling zeitgeist (even the internet version of it).

Agreed. This has never been more clearly "Dave's Personal Wrestling Awards for his Subculture of Smart Marks with 0% Objectivity Hatred for WWE".

[FourPostMassacre]

3 hours ago, hammerva said:

Well today is the for people who love to bitch on Twitter today because it is 2022 OBSERVER AWARDS 

https://wrestlepurists.com/2022-wrestling-observer-awards-results/

I guess the biggest gripe is that the WWE is rated worse than the NWA and Control Your Narrative which is admittingly pretty stupid.  

Surprised Konosuke wasn’t all over these. 
 

Also suprised Rumble won worst PPV but then I was thinking of this years when I read that. Was 2022 Rumble the one Shane wanted to win? 

Edited February 24, 2023 by FourPostMassacre
Grammar

[John from Cincinnati]

1 hour ago, just drew said:

Idk if this counts as spoilers, but be advised; 

I really don't understand the notion that HHH has turned WWE around. The numbers are up, but I think that's a cyclical thing. Outside of the Bloodline, what angles are better than they were with Vince in charge? Most of his nxt re-hires have been failures to this point. Gargano. Lumis. Bronson Reed. Karrion Kross. Shit Row. Dakota Kai has been thoroughly "meh." Tegan Nox. He's managed to make Io Sky boring. Santos Escobar should be in a better spot than he is. It's not good booking. At all. His treatment of Judgement Day has been awful. He had the good sense to give Piper Niven her name back. That's a positive. But he shit up the payoff to the Reigns/Zayn angle and now we're supposed to believe the same tag team titles that have been an afterthought for most of the last two decades is somehow a satisfying conclusion? It's real bad. A lot of folks are lying to themselves because they're so happy Vince is gone that they'll accept anything. The matches are longer. Great. Oh, I'll give him credit for one thing; he had the good sense to put Imperium back together. Those guys rule. I just don't buy the hype with HHH. Smackdown is unwatchable most weeks outside the Bloodline stuff, the women's division is in a shambles, and the midcard is still a jumbled mess outside of Gunther, and he really shouldn't be there.

It's marginal improvements. Imperium is a yay, Vince left before he could get bored and hotshot Gunther's belt, and the abuse storyline with him and Ludwig has seemingly been dropped. The Sami stuff got to carry on and heighten rather than Vince getting bored. The Dominic/Rhea stuff is great and gets time. Not a complete turn around, just counting small blessings. And the women's stuff is better and gets more play than the main competitor, which builds a lot of goodwill. 

I'm also smart enough to skip whatever's going on with Gargano and Lumis and just watch what I want, which is mostly Cody, Sami, Gunther, Lashley, Judgement Day, and the women. Which is probably a much better show than what they're actually airing for five hours every week. 

[John from Cincinnati]

Quote

WON 2022 Most Disgusting Promotional Tactic:

1. Vince McMahon Appears on TV after sexual misconduct allegations

2. WWE/Saudi Arabia relationship
3. Ric Flair’s last match
4. Stephanie McMahon’s goodbye to Vince McMahon
5. AEW not punishing CM Punk after Adam Page callout

Is number five even a "promotional tactic"? Corgan gave Brutus the NWA title to carry around as a prop and represent the brand on Fox News, surely that's a promotional tactic that merits mention. 

[cubbymark]

2 hours ago, odessasteps said:

Someone sent me a screen shot of what Dave wrote about the Booking award and my first thought was “those vote totals seem a lot lower than I remember.” If true, I wonder if that’s a sign of how many people Dave has run off.

He has to have run off a large part of the Jim Cornette style smart marks that would have subscribed, which is probably a decent chunk of what was Meltzer's reader base. As for the Stardom support this year, that feels like an even bigger niche of a niche. Joshi is always going to have an outsized influence with Dave's core audience.

[Mario]

1 hour ago, The Comedian said:

Agreed. This has never been more clearly "Dave's Personal Wrestling Awards for his Subculture of Smart Marks with 0% Objectivity Hatred for WWE".

I’m confused.  It sounds like you’re describing this site at least as much as Dave’s.