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Vince McMahon Returns to WWE


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49 minutes ago, Lawful Metal said:

What if Tony Khan buys WWE?

I don't think this has been brought up but would someone step in and intervene to stop him from having a monopoly over pro wrestling in the United States? He would own 1, 2, and arguably 3a or 3b as well. 

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44 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

I don't think this has been brought up but would someone step in and intervene to stop him from having a monopoly over pro wrestling in the United States? He would own 1, 2, and arguably 3a or 3b as well. 

Nobody stepped in when Vince had a monopoly over pro wrestling in the US after buying WCW and ECW. 

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11 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

Nobody stepped in when Vince had a monopoly over pro wrestling in the US after buying WCW and ECW. 

Same thing happened when UFC (really Zuffa) bought what was left of PRIDE FC and Strikeforce. I think perhaps the reason is both companies were virtually going out of business anyway.

Ring of Honor (technically) wasn't going out of business. WWE sure as hell wasn't closing its doors.

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You had a number of startups in 2001-02 so it’s not like he had a real monopoly, just a mainstream one. You can prob argue how well known TNA was to the general public, even on Spike, with Hogan and flair there, among others.

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The inevitable corporate buyout of WWE has me very worried for the future of the industry. Trevor Dame covered this yesterday on Twitter but when you bring in some third party entity who has no wrestling knowledge or background, who the hell knows what will happen with the company's direction. We saw Jim Herd in the 90s and that may not happen but stuff like that could. I think creativity could be stifled when a company like Disney or whoever comes in and there may not be much of a desire to not just play the greatest hits, if you will. Looking at Disney and their films, most of what they put out, to me, seems to be reboots and rehashes, and highly doubt they would try and evolve the WWE formula to match 2023 trends and beyond. Trevor articulated it a little better than me but it's like wrestling needs some sort of private entity who is willing to try new things and who also knows wrestling. I'm trying to picture ten years from now, if AEW somehow doesn't survive at the level they are now, and it's just heavily corporate WWE simply appealing to the 50+ demo and not trying things that might stimulate 18-49 and actually create new viewers and customers.

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3 hours ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

I don't think this has been brought up but would someone step in and intervene to stop him from having a monopoly over pro wrestling in the United States? He would own 1, 2, and arguably 3a or 3b as well. 

 

2 hours ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

Nobody stepped in when Vince had a monopoly over pro wrestling in the US after buying WCW and ECW. 

 

1 hour ago, odessasteps said:

You had a number of startups in 2001-02 so it’s not like he had a real monopoly, just a mainstream one. You can prob argue how well known TNA was to the general public, even on Spike, with Hogan and flair there, among others.

Odessa took the words out of my mouth. Not to bring up unsavory topics, but when the House oversight committee did the hearings on steroids after what I am going to refer to as the 'Pegasus Kid Oopsie-Daisy' to cope, TNA was large enough to have them depose Dixie, so even though anyone in the wrestling audience could smell bullshit, all they'd have to do is produce that transcript. Plus NJPW is still popular here and Strong has gotten some great reviews (though I haven't had a chance to watch a full episode yet), Impact would probably still play nice and corroborate if questioned (especially for these purposes) saying they're in a 'rebuild' phase or something, but they could always fudge a bit and tout the size of things like Fight Network, AXS, Anthem itself, etc. Then you have MLW, which you can always point to it's Tubi lawsuit with WWE as the reason they're not above the level they are. And despite the current product, you can always point to the historical importance of the NWA as the oldest promotion/brand in the sport, and talk about it's past glories - i'd also really hammer home the idea that Billy Corgan's celebrity raises their profile ('How could AEWWE possibly be a monopoly when the competition is headed by a man who has sold upwards of 30 million records?!') In fact, I'd even consider bringing in some tweets and podcast audio from Freddie Prinze, Jr. as exhibits for the same reason. ('Clearly, AEWWE cannot be a monopoly if any person with enough connections, money, and notoriety can start their own promotion at any time.') I mean, they're politicians - these people are dumb as fuck ANYWAY, even discounting the fact none of them know the wrestling business. There's a solid chance you could get away with going to Cagematch or Wiki or the like, and just printing out 'List of Active Professional Wrestling Promotions,' handing it to them, and calling it a day.

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2 hours ago, Zakk_Sabbath said:

Odessa took the words out of my mouth. Not to bring up unsavory topics, but when the House oversight committee did the hearings on steroids after what I am going to refer to as the 'Pegasus Kid Oopsie-Daisy' to cope, TNA was large enough to have them depose Dixie, so even though anyone in the wrestling audience could smell bullshit, all they'd have to do is produce that transcript. Plus NJPW is still popular here and Strong has gotten some great reviews (though I haven't had a chance to watch a full episode yet), Impact would probably still play nice and corroborate if questioned (especially for these purposes) saying they're in a 'rebuild' phase or something, but they could always fudge a bit and tout the size of things like Fight Network, AXS, Anthem itself, etc. Then you have MLW, which you can always point to it's Tubi lawsuit with WWE as the reason they're not above the level they are. And despite the current product, you can always point to the historical importance of the NWA as the oldest promotion/brand in the sport, and talk about it's past glories - i'd also really hammer home the idea that Billy Corgan's celebrity raises their profile ('How could AEWWE possibly be a monopoly when the competition is headed by a man who has sold upwards of 30 million records?!') In fact, I'd even consider bringing in some tweets and podcast audio from Freddie Prinze, Jr. as exhibits for the same reason. ('Clearly, AEWWE cannot be a monopoly if any person with enough connections, money, and notoriety can start their own promotion at any time.') I mean, they're politicians - these people are dumb as fuck ANYWAY, even discounting the fact none of them know the wrestling business. There's a solid chance you could get away with going to Cagematch or Wiki or the like, and just printing out 'List of Active Professional Wrestling Promotions,' handing it to them, and calling it a day.

Going back what I said about the Zuffa owned UFC, that anti trust lawsuit (which was thought to have been groundbreaking but for various reasons hasn't) started in December 2014 when the MMA landscape was much different. Zuffa had a complete monopoly even with pre Viacom owned Bellator basically solid if not being a distant, distant two. The case is just now reaching the end of the class certification stage EIGHT years after it started and four years after they began motion for class certification. What delayed it even more recently is because it's taken so long for it get started, the plaintiffs wanted to file a SEPERATE lawsuit for the years after the period covered in the original lawsuit (when Zuffa owned UFC) meaning they now want to go after Endeavor. The judge didn't dismiss it and instead paused it since the aforementioned first lawsuit still hasn't gotten underway. That has been the most interesting development over the last several years. In the years since Endeavor bought UFC, Bellator inched a little closer to relevance in the Viacom era especially since the move to Showtime, ONE has gotten on American TV/streaming services with some shows on TNT and Bleacher Report, PFL is on primetime on ESPN and ESPN PPV. There are a bunch of solid and strong developmental MMA companies with many of them even being broadcasted on UFC Fight Pass. However, under Endeavor ownership, UFC has all but pulled away and it's not even really fair to put numbers to it. It's UFC and everyone else. There ain't no 2 or 3.

The point being that any WWE/AEW owner (the Khans) wouldn't be able to escape using those arguments. Matter of fact, a lot of people in the MMA world from fans to media believe that was how the UFC was going to get the original lawsuit dismissed. They did use a lot of that. I believe there has been two motions to dismiss, and it's still fucking chugging along. So no, that will not work.

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TNA Started in June of 2002. How does TNA starting a full 15 months after Vince created a monopoly negate that monopoly? Did I misunderstand the question? Vince buying the last of the national promotions surely constitutes a monopoly in principal. If Papa Johns bought up all the national pizza chains and all that remained were small local ones that only serviced one town, then Papa Johns would have a monopoly in practice as well.

TNA started in June of 2002. I'd argue it didn't really count as a national promotion until it got on Spike TV in October of 2005. So essentially there was a monopoly in practice from March 2001 until October 2005, in my opinion at least.

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Just now, NoFistsJustFlips said:

TNA Started in June of 2002. How does TNA starting a full 15 months after Vince created a monopoly negate that monopoly? Did I misunderstand the question? Vince buying the last of the national promotions surely constitutes a monopoly in principal. If Papa Johns bought up all the national pizza chains and all that remained were small local ones that only serviced one town, then Papa Johns would have a monopoly in practice as well.

TNA started in June of 2002. I'd argue it didn't really count as a national promotion until it got on Spike TV in October of 2005. So essentially there was a monopoly in practice from March 2001 until October 2005, in my opinion at least.

WWA and XWF preceded TNA in 2001

I know your entire gimmick is uninformed contrarian hot takes because you like to start arguments, but come on

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What percentage of the wrestling market did XWF have though? They existed and then they didn't exist. 

To me, it's like when World Class was basically done but still somehow running shows. Killer Tim Brooks had a company that was outdrawing zombie World Class. Gary Hart had his own company which had green as baby shit Steve Austin tagging with Rod Price. Dallas was deader than Elvis, but you had all these vultures hovering around. That's what XWF and WWA were largely.

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1 minute ago, Dolphman 3000 said:

WWA and XWF preceded TNA in 2001

WWA who only ran 5 shows (only 2 of which were based in the United States) over 3 years counts as a nation promotion?

XWF who ran a marathon studio taping and couldn't sell shit to a fly counts as a national promotion?

A promotion existing doesn't constitute a national promotion. Touring / TV distribution on a national network / functioning as an active promotion, not just an indy that threw their low budget quarterly shit up on the Cablevison is a prerequisite to being a national promotion. WWE. WCW. ECW. Later stage TNA. AWA. AEW. Shit even ROH had that HD-Net show for a minute. Those are national promotions. XWF & WWA aint it.

 

6 minutes ago, Dolphman 3000 said:

I know your entire gimmick is uninformed contrarian hot takes because you like to start arguments, but come on

The only gimmick I have is dude that posts his thoughts & opinions. You're the one predicting an almost 80 year old McMahon chomping at the bit to run a monthly territory out of MSG for some reason. So maybe that uniformed label is a bit of projection?

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12 minutes ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

The only gimmick I have is dude that posts his thoughts & opinions. You're the one predicting an almost 80 year old McMahon chomping at the bit to run a monthly territory out of MSG for some reason. So maybe that uniformed label is a bit of projection?

I'm the one who posted "the McMahons" could run a New York territory and you're the one who extrapolated that I was talking about Vince

Read before you type

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21 hours ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Right...about that

Unfortunately, I think especially with WWE and the years of fan loyalty they were able to rely on even when the shows/creative were terrible counts for so much. They have built up so much goodwill despite doing their very best to negate that someone trying to capitalize on that OUTSIDE the WWE name would need AT LEAST two or three decades and a revitalization of the wrestling business overall to do anywhere close to the same under a new name. That's virtually impossible.

Thirty years ago, when Jim Crockett Jr. tried to get back in years after the sale to Ted Turner, it did not go well. I think he was relying mostly on guys on the pro wrestling scrap heap who either had left WWF and won't signed yet to WCW or vice versa.

I remember when things were coming to a head with NXT and Levesque being demoted (or not demoted) a year and some change back, people were expecting and envisioning Paul Levesque to lead this Pro Wrestling NOAH like exodus when in actuality it would take the circumstances much better than that for it to work. If Paul leaves, he ain't taking a major TV deal with him. Moreover, he would have a bunch of trouble finding one. It would be XWF all over again. It would be this Global Force type scheme that never fully materializes. 

To add on to this WWE/The Macmahons have spent the last 25 years making themselves the heels in the fans eyes. and a lot of fans  only stuck around in the recent lean times due to a lack of a better option 

 

21 hours ago, piranesi said:

I think it's kind of an unknown. I mean here are the known knowns and the known unknowns:

1) There is the conventional "Meltzer" wrestling wisdom that house shows and touring are absolutely essential and the business will fold without them. That wrestling and wrestling fans are "different" and this is one of the ways.

2) There is the known unknown of whether a corporate buyer will buy into that idea just because the old guys insist it needs it or if they'll be like "media is media. Content is content. it's just bits on our servers."

3) there is the unknown unknown in that we don't really know if that old conventional wisdom is true. Maybe it's wrong and the new WWDisney could be t.v. tapings only and not live and everything will chug along fine. Or maybe the old ways are there for a reason. But that's what old guys always say even when they're wrong. But that's what new business degree types say even when they're wrong.

 

I've felt the future is the Lucha Underground model. Built a set in a soundstage or warehouse  and do taping that way,

 

17 hours ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:



-WWE Land with multiple shows happening in the same park, also dumbbbb. Pro wrestling ain't Disney. There's what, AT MOST, a top line number of 5 million-ish people in the United States that even care the tiniest slightest bit about wrestling. Of that number less than half watch a TV wrestling program regularly. Less than that number care to attend the shows. Disney has hundreds of millions of people all over the world willing to come to their parks. And even they are having trouble making it work. You couldn't even have ONE WWE Land in the world because your pool of people willing to go is probably about 1 million. And of those 1 million I'd venture to guess less than half have the means to make it happen.

 

WWE tried this with WWF New York and The Debbie Gibson hotel on lesser scale

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21 minutes ago, Dolphman 3000 said:

I'm the one who posted "the McMahons" could run a New York territory and you're the one who extrapolated that I was talking about Vince

Read before you type

Is Vince not a McMahon? Am I supposed to extrapolate The McMahons to somehow not include Vince? Maybe think before you type then? If you meant The McMahons that are not Vince, say that. Otherwise McMahons clearly does include Vince. NONE of them are running a territory out of New York by the way. Territories died 40 years ago. So regardless of the intent of your subject, it's an asinine thought.

Of the 5 of them only maybe Triple H would have the passion to do anything non-WWE if he's not included in a WWE sale. Stephanie, Vince, Linda for sure are WWE all or nothing. Shane, it depends how much coke he's had that day. He's more likely to start a slap fight league to compete with Dana White probably. But NONE of them would even fathom the thought or running a territory in the 2020s.

And with that I've already spent too much time and energy with replies to this dumb thought. So I say good day to you.

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When you look at the list of companies that could buy WWE, the only ones that make the most sense are Comcast or FOX.

If Comcast buys WWE, they no longer have to pay for TV rights. They own everything outright. They get all the revenue, and they actually have TV networks to put all the live programming on.

Streaming is a scam. Streamers are losing money and billions of dollars. Mega corporations are pulling back on streamers. Look at Warner Bros. Discovery. There's no way they could even afford a WWE acquisition.

Comcast could afford it and they have the networks to air WWE between NBC and USA Network. Same with FOX. If you buy on WWE to build your streaming platform, it's a waste because WWE is one of the few programs that's a viable TV product right now. Mega corporations only seem to be pulling back on over-investing into streaming. 

If Viacom were to buy the company, it just doesn't seem like a good fit. I mean they could do it I suppose. Same with WWE. But if it's WWE, you'd need the programming on ESPN. And is ESPN really going to do live WWE event coverage? Is Hulu a good fit for that? I don't think it is. Disney doesn't seem like a good fit either.

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32 minutes ago, zendragon said:

To add on to this WWE/The Macmahons have spent the last 25 years making themselves the heels in the fans eyes. and a lot of fans  only stuck around in the recent lean times due to a lack of a better option 

 

I've felt the future is the Lucha Underground model. Built a set in a soundstage or warehouse  and do taping that way,

 

WWE tried this with WWF New York and The Debbie Gibson hotel on lesser scale

Debbie Reynolds. 🙂

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1 hour ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

What percentage of the wrestling market did XWF have though? They existed and then they didn't exist. 

 

1 hour ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

promotion existing doesn't constitute a national promotion. Touring / TV distribution on a national network / functioning as an active promotion, not just an indy that threw their low budget quarterly shit up on the Cablevison is a prerequisite to being a national promotion. WWE. WCW. ECW. Later stage TNA. AWA. AEW. Shit even ROH had that HD-Net show for a minute. Those are national promotions. XWF & WWA aint it.

Just to reiterate (and I'm pretty sure you're aware El Savaje because you hit a lot of great points in your UFC post) I don't necessarily agree with these arguments - I just thought there was a solid chance a group of uninformed politicians/judges might buy them. Like, for example, using XWF as the argument, I'd trump up the fact that they had Hogan, Lawler, Perfect, Styles etc. and taped at Universal - basically the same idea they used to try and get the average Joe to buy the 'Lost Episode's DVD from the $1 bin. I agree one million percent with NoFlips: the reality is that legitimate TV, even now in this age of streaming, is the bar. I said this this in another post about a different thing the other day, but IMO that's the exact reason why none of Impact, MLW, NWA, pre-TK ROH etc. have slipped into that #3 ECW position in the US in any meaningful or effective way.

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46 minutes ago, zendragon said:

I wonder how many years Vince has left on this earth anyway... on one hand he's a workout fanatic on the other he's a workaholic who lives on no sleep, cocaine, steroids, steakwraps and energy drinks

He has already outlived Murdoch and Prince Philip. I think as long as Kissinger still breathes Vince is at least one step away from getting whatever it is he deserves.

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16 minutes ago, Zakk_Sabbath said:

 I agree one million percent with NoFlips: the reality is that legitimate TV, even now in this age of streaming, is the bar. I said this this in another post about a different thing the other day, but IMO that's the exact reason why none of Impact, MLW, NWA, pre-TK ROH etc. have slipped into that #3 ECW position in the US in any meaningful or effective way.

Right, but screaming "monopoly!" at an industry when the US legal system has specifically been gutted by business interests to protect said monopolies is pointless. MLW's lawsuit against WWE for messing with their TV contract is the most interesting thing to happen on that front in years, but instead of changing anything for the better, they're likely just looking to get a large-money settlement.

It's interesting how bringing up Madison Square Garden automatically garners "but the unions!" responses, as if decades of corporate propaganda hasn't been designed to demonize unions and make you think exactly that. If the guy running the lights at MSG gets paid $30/hour with full benefits, while the enhancement talent in charge of putting his body on the line to get squashed by someone making $2 million/year has to be at the arena from 2PM to midnight and gets paid $200 total for 10 hours of work - that means there's something wrong with the wrestler's pay and not the other way around.

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