January 2023 AEW Discussion Thread

[The Natural]

5 hours ago, JLowe said:

If you haven't seen the Athena-Shafir Dark match, it's stiff and borderline uncooperative in all the best ways without any blood or special hardcore spots.

StuntmanCrowley has after seeing my Best AEW 2023 Matches with Athena vs. Marina Shafir. AEW Dark, 10th January high on my list.

Edited January 24, 2023 by The Natural

[Casey]

Marina Shafir is such an… odd case. I watched Wrestling Revolver’s Season Finale 2022 this weekend and she had a pretty great match with Billie Starkz. Her stuff with Bloodsport was good too.

But you put Shafir on live TV and it’s just terrible. Indies and pretaped YouTube shows? Perfectly acceptable, it seems. Maybe live TV makes her nervous or something, I don’t know. Doesn’t help that her big breakout title matches have been against someone green (Jade) and someone with a mixed bag of a reputation in-ring depending on who you ask (Rosa).

[LoneWolf&Subs]

2 hours ago, Casey said:

Marina Shafir is such an… odd case. I watched Wrestling Revolver’s Season Finale 2022 this weekend and she had a pretty great match with Billie Starkz. Her stuff with Bloodsport was good too.

But you put Shafir on live TV and it’s just terrible. Indies and pretaped YouTube shows? Perfectly acceptable, it seems. Maybe live TV makes her nervous or something, I don’t know. Doesn’t help that her big breakout title matches have been against someone green (Jade) and someone with a mixed bag of a reputation in-ring depending on who you ask (Rosa).

It’s pretty simple really. Non-televised wrestling gives you more room to breath as a performer for better or worse. When constrained to TV time you need to figure out how to get your shit in while fighting for mind share of the audience in the arena, and at home. Some wrestlers just can’t seem to figure out that balance, while others are just naturals at it. I think it might be worse for someone like Shafir because she’s a shoot wrestler. Shoot style just doesn’t hold attention to an audience past the novelty. Especially in a bang bang tv setting. Look at Minoru Suzuki. He got over with his personality in Japan, but there was a time he was coasting on reputation, and still bored the crowd with his flavorless shoot mat work. It wasn’t until his late 00’s New Japan run where he simplified it all into his signature match we know now. 

Edited January 24, 2023 by LoneWolf&Subs

[The Natural]

https://twitter.com/TeamCMPunk/status/1615171964208832514

Loved this.

[TheVileOne]

On 1/24/2023 at 3:13 AM, LoneWolf&Subs said:

It’s pretty simple really. Non-televised wrestling gives you more room to breath as a performer for better or worse. When constrained to TV time you need to figure out how to get your shit in while fighting for mind share of the audience in the arena, and at home. Some wrestlers just can’t seem to figure out that balance, while others are just naturals at it. I think it might be worse for someone like Shafir because she’s a shoot wrestler. Shoot style just doesn’t hold attention to an audience past the novelty. Especially in a bang bang tv setting. Look at Minoru Suzuki. He got over with his personality in Japan, but there was a time he was coasting on reputation, and still bored the crowd with his flavorless shoot mat work. It wasn’t until his late 00’s New Japan run where he simplified it all into his signature match we know now. 

I'd say AEW was also to blame for a lot of this. They put her in spots she wasn't ready for with next to no buildup.

[John E. Dynamite]

Given what a disastrous hype-train derailment Marina Shafir's MMA career was, you gotta wonder - should AEW have played it safer and avoided repeating the pattern, or is she just like this?

I for one don't mind her work a lot of the time. The match a few weeks back with Athena totally ruled, she's the only real shoot-stylist on the whole roster and I don't care if something's "clunky' if it looks like a realistic physical struggle. But she's dependent on chemistry with her opponent and very little about her seems like a fit for TV. 

Edited January 25, 2023 by John E. Dynamite

[Elsalvajeloco]

1 hour ago, John E. Dynamite said:

Given what a disastrous hype-train derailment Marina Shafir's MMA career was, you gotta wonder - should AEW have played it safer and avoided repeating the pattern, or is she just like this?

It's crazy that had she stuck with MMA for a little while longer, learned how to actually move her head, and didn't react to punches like Glass Joe, she could have been in Kayla Harrison's place in PFL and making around a million dollars a year. Granted, all she had to do was win a few fights in Invicta when it was still a pipeline to the UFC and she would probably be sitting pretty financially right now either way. She wasn't a physical freak or as well rounded as an Aaron Pico (who is still only 26 btw), but you would think she was more than enough athletically to handle the bottom tier of female fighters. 

IMO when all that went down the drain because you can't be getting your brain rattled around like that multiple times, naturally she did what everyone else who was friends with Ronda did and looked down the road to pro wrestling. I don't think she had a plan of attack to make it in pro wrestling, which usually won't end well when it's your backup plan.

Quote

I for one don't mind her work a lot of the time. The match a few weeks back with Athena totally ruled, she's the only real shoot-stylist on the whole roster and I don't care if something's "clunky' if it looks like a realistic physical struggle. But she's dependent on chemistry with her opponent and very little about her seems like a fit for TV. 

The former fighter thing doesn't translate unless you know how to make it translate. Everyone from that world shouldn't have that character. You either have to redefine it or do something new.

Long live, Chola Queen Marina Shafir.

[TheVileOne]

Shayna Baszler made that character work for her, at least in NXT.

[Krone]

Put Shafir in a tag team with Serena Deeb. They can be the Shooters or something of that effect. Marina definitely brings something to the table, and I think (especially if they ever pull the trigger on womens tag titles) that Shafir/Deeb would be a good teacher/mentor storyline with legs to go for a long while.

Edited January 25, 2023 by Krone

[Elsalvajeloco]

46 minutes ago, TheVileOne said:

Shayna Baszler made that character work for her, at least in NXT.

Bingo. She also got established her own identity away from Ronda for awhile. Also, it's a bit different in that Shayna was transitioning out of MMA while Marina was just starting her career and then due to the aforementioned reasons came to an abrupt end. I don't think pro wrestling was Marina's first plan whereas Shayna always came off as a wrestling fan from the wacky entrances with the guitar to hanging out w/ Josh Barnett, who was and always been numero uno pro wrestling defender in MMA. Moreover, Shayna got to get some work in prior to going to NXT. So she could at least have a decent pro wrestling career at least compared to Marina and ole gangly limbs Jessamyn.

[Greggulator]

I hope this does not sound a crass question. But does anyone know what the real reason is why The Briscoes never appeared on AEW television? I absolutely refuse to believe it is because some random TV executive saw some objectionable YouTube clip that was posted years ago. There could not be more holes in that logic. What TNT or whatever executive is cross-checking potential AEW roster members? There is no way Tony is pre-screening talent with  like the 48th person in charge of what we conglomerate owns TNT/TBS because that is the highest up on the food chain AEW is getting looked at. 

[Dolphman 3000]

14 minutes ago, Greggulator said:

I hope this does not sound a crass question. But does anyone know what the real reason is why The Briscoes never appeared on AEW television? I absolutely refuse to believe it is because some random TV executive saw some objectionable YouTube clip that was posted years ago. There could not be more holes in that logic. What TNT or whatever executive is cross-checking potential AEW roster members? There is no way Tony is pre-screening talent with  like the 48th person in charge of what we conglomerate owns TNT/TBS because that is the highest up on the food chain AEW is getting looked at. 

Even if the executive(s) Tony had to kiss up to for the TV deal said something in passing like "I prefer the Briscoes not be on our network", Tony would have honored that for the sake of the TV deal

People are mad and out for blood - I've seen hypotheticals where Jay would have been at AEW TV and not been in the car crash had the Mystery Executive not banned him. Jay fucked up years ago and it  haunted him when it came to reaching the top level of the business. By all accounts, the incident thankfully made him a better person. He was still working regularly and making good money, so it's not like he was blacklisted from the industry.

[John E. Dynamite]

38 minutes ago, Greggulator said:

I hope this does not sound a crass question. But does anyone know what the real reason is why The Briscoes never appeared on AEW television? I absolutely refuse to believe it is because some random TV executive saw some objectionable YouTube clip that was posted years ago. 

YouTube clip? You musta missed some stuff. The controversy popped off when Jay made the "I will kill anyone that tells my kid it's OK to get gay married" tweet. There was also Jay's slur-based reaction to having to witness gay people exist in New York City. Then people dug up similar stuff on Mark's Facebook (violent, possibly racist anti-Obama rhetoric, homophobic and transphobic slurs used in posts decrying the US's foreign aid preferences going to countries that don't persecute gay people). Then there was an incident where the Briscoes ripped a Pride flag out of somebody's hands at a show and choked somebody out in the ring with it (this was after the big Jay tweet). Then as the more casual side of the wrestling fandom picked up on it, people shared more and more pictures of the Briscoes being decked out in Confederate gear long after said gimmick had stopped being in fashion. Jay was actually rocking a Stars 'n Bars custom ROH World Championship belt as recently as 2016.

So no, it wasn't really as simple as a single dumb tweet by Jay that was apologized for. FWIW I think the accounts of such a significant amount of their peers + the sincerity of Jay's public apologies should have been enough to get them on TV, especially seeing how low the bar has been for other wrestling companies and WBD. And CERTAINLY Mark should have had a no-questions-asked right to be on TV right after Jay's passing vs. having to wait it out a week for the letter writing campaign to kick in. But I've been seeing a lot of discussion online reducing the Briscoe's controversy to the one tweet and no, that's not the whole story.

Edited January 26, 2023 by John E. Dynamite

[Greggulator]

33 minutes ago, John E. Dynamite said:

YouTube clip? You musta missed some stuff. The controversy popped off when Jay made the "I will kill anyone that tells my kid it's OK to get gay married" tweet. There was also Jay's slur-based reaction to having to witness gay people exist in New York City. Then people dug up similar stuff on Mark's Facebook (violent, possibly racist anti-Obama rhetoric, homophobic and transphobic slurs used in posts decrying the US's foreign aid preferences going to countries that don't persecute gay people). Then there was an incident where the Briscoes ripped a Pride flag out of somebody's hands at a show and choked somebody out in the ring with it (this was after the big Jay tweet). Then as the more casual side of the wrestling fandom picked up on it, people shared more and more pictures of the Briscoes being decked out in Confederate gear long after said gimmick had stopped being in fashion. Jay was actually rocking a Stars 'n Bars custom ROH World Championship belt as recently as 2016.

So no, it wasn't really as simple as a single dumb tweet by Jay that was apologized for. FWIW I think the accounts of such a significant amount of their peers + the sincerity of Jay's public apologies should have been enough to get them on TV, especially seeing how low the bar has been for other wrestling companies and WBD. And CERTAINLY Mark should have had a no-questions-asked right to be on TV right after Jay's passing vs. having to wait it out a week for the letter writing campaign to kick in. But I've been seeing a lot of discussion online reducing the Briscoe's controversy to the one tweet and no, that's not the whole story.

I am a big enough wrestling fan to post on a wrestling message board. And while I don’t pay any attention to Ring of Honor, I hadn’t heard about any of that. And while it’s awful, there is no way a WBD executive heard about any of it either. 

If anything, Tony didn’t want the backlash. 

[Dolphman 3000]

2 minutes ago, Greggulator said:

If anything, Tony didn’t want the backlash. 

Tony's said publicly that he lobbied Warner execs to change their mind

From November -

Tony Khan tried to have FTR vs. the Briscoes take place on AEW television

Quote

“I got asked earlier in the call about FTR, well FTR have wrestled on pay-per-view a few times this year as the Ring Of Honor tag team champions and at Forbidden Door, they actually won the IWGP Heavyweight Tag Team Championships and became Triple Crown champions where they hold three world titles in the world of pro wrestling in which I have a pretty big influence frankly. I’ve had a lot of opportunities to showcase [FTR] and now being able to have another platform to showcase one of one of the best teams in the world to an audience that clearly really appreciates them. To the point I made earlier in the call, Ring Of Honor allowed me to feature a damn pay-per-view main event that was one of the best main events of the entire year in FTR vs. Briscoes 2 out of 3 falls, in a match that I literally could not do in AEW, and believe me I’ve tried.”

[Go2Sleep]

1 hour ago, TheVileOne said:

Shayna Baszler made that character work for her, at least in NXT.

Shayna had that character working for her on the indies before she got to NXT. I got to see her work on Mania (32) weekend, and you could see she had next big thing potential. She's just a natural when it comes to pro wrestling.

[Elsalvajeloco]

10 minutes ago, Greggulator said:

I am a big enough wrestling fan to post on a wrestling message board. And while I don’t pay any attention to Ring of Honor, I hadn’t heard about any of that. And while it’s awful, there is no way a WBD executive heard about any of it either. 

If anything, Tony didn’t want the backlash. 

I legit think it's WBD. If you don't want the backlash, you can just release them. Simple as that. They're still under your employ, and people are naturally going to be curious as to why everyone, their cousin, mom, and kinfolk from ROH are on AEW TV but not the Briscoes.

[BrianS81177]

52 minutes ago, Dolphman 3000 said:

Even if the executive(s) Tony had to kiss up to for the TV deal said something in passing like "I prefer the Briscoes not be on our network", Tony would have honored that for the sake of the TV deal

People are mad and out for blood - I've seen hypotheticals where Jay would have been at AEW TV and not been in the car crash had the Mystery Executive not banned him. Jay fucked up years ago and it  haunted him when it came to reaching the top level of the business. By all accounts, the incident thankfully made him a better person. He was still working regularly and making good money, so it's not like he was blacklisted from the industry.

Pretty sure if the executive's name is ever released Jim Cornette will lead a lynch mob to their house.

[TheVileOne]

1 minute ago, BrianS81177 said:

Pretty sure if the executive's name is ever released Jim Cornette will lead a lynch mob to their house.

Who says it was one person?

[John E. Dynamite]

32 minutes ago, Greggulator said:

If anything, Tony didn’t want the backlash. 

Let's say it's still mid-pandemic, and I'm a total shit-stirrer. "AEW has a major race problem! And it's not just the Big Swole thing - this company was founded by the most out-of-touch white guys you could find. Two anti-Obama sons of a Christian rocker, a Canadian weeb living in Japan, a guy with a noose gimmick, Trump-donating Jericho, and good 'ol Jim Ross. The Day One guy who's most in-touch with black America is the guy who cut that promo against Anthony Ogogo. There's not even a potential black World Champion on the roster." These statements weren't uncommon opinions at one point, not to say that the drivel and dregs of bottom-tier Twitter tribalism is valid discourse (and not to say there isn't truth in the above bolded statement) but it was seeping into the AEW narrative. Some of this was due to mismanagement, Tony's stupid-ass Big Swole response being the most obvious, some of this was due to the WWE smartly (and IMO ruthlessly) playing their cards so that none of the major releases during the first two or three rounds of 2020/21 COVID cuts were black (Athena/Keith/Swerve were Nov. 2021). So it's March 2nd, 2022 and Tony has announced the purchase of Ring of Honor. Lio Rush just left in a bad way, Athena and Swerve haven't debuted yet, Jade's only won the TBS Title two months ago and you've never had a black singles champ in the men's ranks yet. If you sign the Briscoes, you've got to push them. At this point in history, are you gonna let the wrestling fandom and media flood the internet with images of these guys draped in every Confederate flag they could find? It's something to consider.

All that isn't meant to demean the people the Briscoes became or what Mark's doing tonight. But it answers the question "How could this Warner Bros exec be so anti-Briscoe?". Or even "How could Tony not have pushed harder for them?".

Edited January 26, 2023 by John E. Dynamite

[Dog]

Clearly someone or something last week prevented the kind of Jay tributes we're seeing right now, and it wasn't Tony. He flew people in specifically for a tribute show that didn't even air.

[TheVileOne]

I really don't understand this debate. Whatever the issue was, it's been resolved. Does the timing truly matter? 

[Just Dave]

34 minutes ago, John E. Dynamite said:

Let's say it's still mid-pandemic, and I'm a total shit-stirrer. "AEW has a major race problem! And it's not just the Big Swole thing - this company was founded by the most out-of-touch white guys you could find. Two anti-Obama sons of a Christian rocker, a Canadian weeb living in Japan, a guy with a noose gimmick, Trump-donating Jericho, and good 'ol Jim Ross. The Day One guy who's most in-touch with black America is the guy who cut that promo against Anthony Ogogo. There's not even a potential black World Champion on the roster." These statements weren't uncommon opinions at one point, not to say that the drivel and dregs of bottom-tier Twitter tribalism is valid discourse (and not to say there isn't truth in the above bolded statement) but it was seeping into the AEW narrative. Some of this was due to mismanagement, Tony's stupid-ass Big Swole response being the most obvious, some of this was due to the WWE smartly (and IMO ruthlessly) playing their cards so that none of the major releases during the first two or three rounds of 2020/21 COVID cuts were black (Athena/Keith/Swerve were Nov. 2021). So it's March 2nd, 2022 and Tony has announced the purchase of Ring of Honor. Lio Rush just left in a bad way, Athena and Swerve haven't debuted yet, Jade's only won the TBS Title two months ago and you've never had a black singles champ in the men's ranks yet. If you sign the Briscoes, you've got to push them. At this point in history, are you gonna let the wrestling fandom and media flood the internet with images of these guys draped in every Confederate flag they could find? It's something to consider.

All that isn't meant to demean the people the Briscoes became or what Mark's doing tonight. But it answers the question "How could this Warner Bros exec be so anti-Briscoe?". Or even "How could Tony not have pushed harder for them?".

The Jackson's dad is/was a Christian rocker? That explains the complete, total absence of cool...

[Octopus]

1 hour ago, TheVileOne said:

I really don't understand this debate. Whatever the issue was, it's been resolved. Does the timing truly matter? 

I think, and apologies if I’m misrepresenting you, @Greggulator believes the WBD executive excuse is either made up or a scapegoat for the Briscoes not being a part of AEW earlier and the Tribute Show being on Dynamite. 
I don’t think the debate is on the timing of the tribute.

True or false, we should always blame Corporate. 

[Greggulator]

2 hours ago, Dolphman 3000 said:

Tony's said publicly that he lobbied Warner execs to change their mind

From November -

Tony Khan tried to have FTR vs. the Briscoes take place on AEW television

I think Tony's telling stories. I don't believe one word of this. My theory: He doesn't want the Briscoes on AEW because of a possible backlash but no one outside of wrestling nerds gives one crap about ROH. So make up some executive who doesn't want them on television and go on with things. 

I 100% think he's lying about this. 

Also, did he explain why he wasn't able to do Briscoes/FTR on AEW? Did anyone in the hard-hitting wrestling press follow up with him or ask the name of the executive or get comment from him or the WBD as a whole? 

Nope. I'm not buying any of it.